ATTENTION B767/A340 CREWS!
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Senior Stuka:
After 13 years with LAN, a well to do airline, Wide Body Capt pay could be higher, although USD 4,500/month is a comfortable salary in Chile, even more so if you were to live outside Santiago. Even in the city, you can get a live-in maid for USD 150/month. A real luxury that is not affordable in MIA. And the food prices at your Jumbo are about the same as they are at Miami's Publix.
You didn't say how many hours you fly or how many days per month you spend away from home. It's always a battle to negotiate higher pay, but it may be easier meanwhile to negotiate improved scheduling practices for optimum time off to improve your life style. Crew scheduling efficiency wouldn't cost the company money but it could help you spend fewer days at work.
[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: GlueBall ]
After 13 years with LAN, a well to do airline, Wide Body Capt pay could be higher, although USD 4,500/month is a comfortable salary in Chile, even more so if you were to live outside Santiago. Even in the city, you can get a live-in maid for USD 150/month. A real luxury that is not affordable in MIA. And the food prices at your Jumbo are about the same as they are at Miami's Publix.
You didn't say how many hours you fly or how many days per month you spend away from home. It's always a battle to negotiate higher pay, but it may be easier meanwhile to negotiate improved scheduling practices for optimum time off to improve your life style. Crew scheduling efficiency wouldn't cost the company money but it could help you spend fewer days at work.
[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: GlueBall ]
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Glueball,
If food is the same as MIA, it is unlikely that that cars and appliances are anything less than in MIA, and probably considerably higher, there is only housing that might be less than MIA, so are we saying that the facility of having a live-in maid for $150 is worth $4,000 to $6,000 a month?
I suspect if you gave them the $4,000 they would do without the maid.
In any event would anyone want to go to Chile to work for $4,500 a month?
Those who might want to go would expect a lot more than that.
Perhaps if I put it a different way. How would US pilots, or UK pilots, feel if at the stroke of a pen a bunch of East Europeans, or Africans, or South Americans replaced them when they started to agitate for a raise. Right now they have strong barriers to prevent that from happening, but few third world countries protect their own.
If food is the same as MIA, it is unlikely that that cars and appliances are anything less than in MIA, and probably considerably higher, there is only housing that might be less than MIA, so are we saying that the facility of having a live-in maid for $150 is worth $4,000 to $6,000 a month?
I suspect if you gave them the $4,000 they would do without the maid.
In any event would anyone want to go to Chile to work for $4,500 a month?
Those who might want to go would expect a lot more than that.
Perhaps if I put it a different way. How would US pilots, or UK pilots, feel if at the stroke of a pen a bunch of East Europeans, or Africans, or South Americans replaced them when they started to agitate for a raise. Right now they have strong barriers to prevent that from happening, but few third world countries protect their own.
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RightsFlyer:
Correct, cars and appliances are more expensive in Chile. But a daycare center at MIA costs four times as much as a live-in maid in Chile. And a maid can cook and clean and babysit and do your laundry. And if you were to live at SCL you wouldn't really need a car; the Metro is very efficient. Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages, and I wouldn't want to live in SCL just as Stuka probably wouldn't want to live at MIA. But my point is that $4500 per month affords a well to do lifestyle in Chile, especially if one were to live outside the overpriced, smoggy metropolis of SCL.
Correct, cars and appliances are more expensive in Chile. But a daycare center at MIA costs four times as much as a live-in maid in Chile. And a maid can cook and clean and babysit and do your laundry. And if you were to live at SCL you wouldn't really need a car; the Metro is very efficient. Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages, and I wouldn't want to live in SCL just as Stuka probably wouldn't want to live at MIA. But my point is that $4500 per month affords a well to do lifestyle in Chile, especially if one were to live outside the overpriced, smoggy metropolis of SCL.
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I'm glad the thread has finally returned to its original purpose, more or less, after the gross digression caused by various multiple-personality and "I-like-to-call-myself-after-flight-instruments" contributors who rarely have any unbiased opinions to share. Anyway, back to the subject at hand, which is Stuka's fair warning to pilots around the world to accept any offers for a contract based in Santiago. Let's lay down some FACTS:
1. Guv's info on expenses in Santiago are quite outdated. Add 50% to the values for film, bus and football ticket, and at least that much for a meal at a decent restaurant.
RF's proposal of using relative dollars would make much more sense anyway. (The question is not about $ anyway, as following points intend to prove).
2. LanChile (and the companies in the holding) have a virtual monopoly in the local airline industry. This means that a pilot who falls in disfavor of management is most likely forced into self-exile to be able continue his/her career. Yes, there may be jobs available in Asia, Middle East, etc., but I think even the Guv must agree that anybody's first preference would be to remain in their homeland.
3. I'm not aware of the length of the contracts offered, but I can almost guarantee that no working permit will be issued. Currently about 30 Ecuadorian pilots are working contracts for Lan (through a third party) and have been issued neither residency nor work permits. They are allegedly reluctantly waved through immigration checks when they state that their work permit is "being processed". In addition, their salary was arbitrarily reduced to less than half what a local makes in a "take it or leave it" deal. Being unemployed, they didn't have much choice, I agree, but are you contract pilots out there willing to deal with THIS management scum?
4. LanChile is fully privatized since 1995, neither SAS nor CAL have any stake whatsoever. The majority shareholder is a congressman and possible future presidential candidate. You want to learn about power and economic/political leverage, you talk to this guy.
5. Conditions for pilots at Lan would be much worse if it weren't for the union. Take as an example the contract the pilots at the other companies in the holding have recently signed (basically a 0% increase over inflation in a 4 year deal). Believe me when I say that the LanChile pilot's union is the only thing that is holding this thing together. If the current management has it's way, they will be destroying the profession known as airline pilot in this country. Given the relative shortage of applicants available, they will certainly not be stimulating young people to start a carrer as a commercial pilot, either, i.e. they will end up shooting their own foot.
6. The proft sharing thing IS in court, and has for months now. However, given Lan's owner's political power, it will be years before we see any of that cash, if at all.
7. Scabbing is a MAJOR ethics issue (Re: Pete Otube's posts). Put yourself in the shoes of a career pilot at any airline, who has invested years at the company, with the hopes of upgrading to the left seat, switch to a larger, more modern fleet, attain a better standard of living, or whatever, and having those dreams betrayed by mercenaries who have no place to call home. You decide if what you're doing is morally right.
1. Guv's info on expenses in Santiago are quite outdated. Add 50% to the values for film, bus and football ticket, and at least that much for a meal at a decent restaurant.
RF's proposal of using relative dollars would make much more sense anyway. (The question is not about $ anyway, as following points intend to prove).
2. LanChile (and the companies in the holding) have a virtual monopoly in the local airline industry. This means that a pilot who falls in disfavor of management is most likely forced into self-exile to be able continue his/her career. Yes, there may be jobs available in Asia, Middle East, etc., but I think even the Guv must agree that anybody's first preference would be to remain in their homeland.
3. I'm not aware of the length of the contracts offered, but I can almost guarantee that no working permit will be issued. Currently about 30 Ecuadorian pilots are working contracts for Lan (through a third party) and have been issued neither residency nor work permits. They are allegedly reluctantly waved through immigration checks when they state that their work permit is "being processed". In addition, their salary was arbitrarily reduced to less than half what a local makes in a "take it or leave it" deal. Being unemployed, they didn't have much choice, I agree, but are you contract pilots out there willing to deal with THIS management scum?
4. LanChile is fully privatized since 1995, neither SAS nor CAL have any stake whatsoever. The majority shareholder is a congressman and possible future presidential candidate. You want to learn about power and economic/political leverage, you talk to this guy.
5. Conditions for pilots at Lan would be much worse if it weren't for the union. Take as an example the contract the pilots at the other companies in the holding have recently signed (basically a 0% increase over inflation in a 4 year deal). Believe me when I say that the LanChile pilot's union is the only thing that is holding this thing together. If the current management has it's way, they will be destroying the profession known as airline pilot in this country. Given the relative shortage of applicants available, they will certainly not be stimulating young people to start a carrer as a commercial pilot, either, i.e. they will end up shooting their own foot.
6. The proft sharing thing IS in court, and has for months now. However, given Lan's owner's political power, it will be years before we see any of that cash, if at all.
7. Scabbing is a MAJOR ethics issue (Re: Pete Otube's posts). Put yourself in the shoes of a career pilot at any airline, who has invested years at the company, with the hopes of upgrading to the left seat, switch to a larger, more modern fleet, attain a better standard of living, or whatever, and having those dreams betrayed by mercenaries who have no place to call home. You decide if what you're doing is morally right.
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Dear Glueball:
Ovbiously you've been in SCL and you got obsessed with live in maids just as any foreigner does but let me tell you, however that for starters we make U$ 4000 and diminishing every day since the peso devaluates about 20% a year. I don't have a live in maid because I won't leave my children alone with someone I don't know and finally I don't know where you lived in SCL but there's no way you can live in Santiago without a car. And I would love to live in MIA. And finally I fly about 90 hours a month, spend 16 to 18 nights away and I get 3 weeks vacation a year If they'll give them to me since the company gives them to you when it fits them, not me. My roster is seldom kept as it was published. Anyway if you keep the proportions I doubt my lifestyle, buying power, quality of the job, retirement, prospects etc. will never get even close to what one of my US colleages have. And...you want me to live away from homebase without a car? You sure you are not one of the LanChile managers based in MIA?
Ovbiously you've been in SCL and you got obsessed with live in maids just as any foreigner does but let me tell you, however that for starters we make U$ 4000 and diminishing every day since the peso devaluates about 20% a year. I don't have a live in maid because I won't leave my children alone with someone I don't know and finally I don't know where you lived in SCL but there's no way you can live in Santiago without a car. And I would love to live in MIA. And finally I fly about 90 hours a month, spend 16 to 18 nights away and I get 3 weeks vacation a year If they'll give them to me since the company gives them to you when it fits them, not me. My roster is seldom kept as it was published. Anyway if you keep the proportions I doubt my lifestyle, buying power, quality of the job, retirement, prospects etc. will never get even close to what one of my US colleages have. And...you want me to live away from homebase without a car? You sure you are not one of the LanChile managers based in MIA?
During a US strike years ago, it was also within US law to photograph (up close and personal) former Boeing factory pilots at a Seattle (SEA) FBO, which allowed public access, and follow them home while noting license plates, counties..., in order to list their home addresses and document them as scabs, even if only paid for aircraft maintenance ferry flights (paint shop etc).
Scab name lists never disappear: they are stored on hard copies in case the hard drives fail. What a way to begin or further a career (or shamefully supplement retirement pay from the military or a manufacturer).
Highly-acclaimed Southwest Airlines ("imitated" around the world) has been heavily unionized for many years and is highly successful. Historically, the most profitable US airlines have always been unionized.
If someone has information to the contrary, then show us.
Scab name lists never disappear: they are stored on hard copies in case the hard drives fail. What a way to begin or further a career (or shamefully supplement retirement pay from the military or a manufacturer).
Highly-acclaimed Southwest Airlines ("imitated" around the world) has been heavily unionized for many years and is highly successful. Historically, the most profitable US airlines have always been unionized.
If someone has information to the contrary, then show us.
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Labor disputes by unionized employees cost airlines millions of dollars.....disputes happen because of bad management....SW to date has had neither....good labor relations=good profits..which goes to show employees make airlines successful, good management makes happy employees which makes good airlines which makes profits....a rare event these days...but even when times are thin...Mr Kelleher has proven it can be done.....so who's next?
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Good point map shift, actually the most succesful airlines worldwide( and also the safest ) are heavily unionized. If you you want to fly as a passenger, I'm sure you'd rather have a pilot who's had a trayectory with the company, and not someone you don't know anything about. The problem with this country is that unions are portrayed as an obstruction to growth, truth is that the average LanChile employee makes about U$ 500 so I would say that the problem are not the unions but rather the management. They make salaries that are world standard and won't let the rest of the employees on a fair share of the cake.
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Stuka,
Regarding pilot vs senior manager salary in your company. Just keep in mind - senior managers do not have clear instructions what to do. There are no airplane manuals, flight operation manuals etc in their live. They deciding themselves. And airline profit and reputation fully depends of their work. Senior airline management is a very specific profession, and it is very hard to find really good managers. Lan Chile is doing good as far as I remember from latest reports - that's an achievement of your managers.
Regarding pilot vs senior manager salary in your company. Just keep in mind - senior managers do not have clear instructions what to do. There are no airplane manuals, flight operation manuals etc in their live. They deciding themselves. And airline profit and reputation fully depends of their work. Senior airline management is a very specific profession, and it is very hard to find really good managers. Lan Chile is doing good as far as I remember from latest reports - that's an achievement of your managers.
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S*it, Cargo One,
Anyone can set up a boxer short factory, lock up the workers for 16 hours, pay them minimum wage while threatening to fire them if they try to form a union, and have them pump out product at minimal cost while you sell the stuff at market price and pocket all the cash.
Agreed, the LanChile admin may be very skilled, but the working conditions of their employees are sadly reminiscent of those in certain parts of Africa and Asia. It's time to change this medieval mentality.
Anyone can set up a boxer short factory, lock up the workers for 16 hours, pay them minimum wage while threatening to fire them if they try to form a union, and have them pump out product at minimal cost while you sell the stuff at market price and pocket all the cash.
Agreed, the LanChile admin may be very skilled, but the working conditions of their employees are sadly reminiscent of those in certain parts of Africa and Asia. It's time to change this medieval mentality.
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aluminum ovcst,
Just tell me - what is the AVERAGE salary you have in SCL, including these boys in McDonalds, including maintenence and handling staff at Lan Chile, including clerks, teachers etc?
Just tell me - what is the AVERAGE salary you have in SCL, including these boys in McDonalds, including maintenence and handling staff at Lan Chile, including clerks, teachers etc?
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Hustler- as with almost everything said out of HK - you are wrong. I am a former scab and have worked successfully, untroubled by anyone anywhere, ever since 1990. I know scores of others with the same history. I've given jobs to both former scabs and former strikers - life moves on with only a few pilots dwelling in the past, unable to forget their individual industrial dispute that happened years ago. Their memories are even more irrelevant now, as we try and find any work at all if the doom merchants are right as to the consequences of this week. May God have mercy on all those who are suffering in America today.
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]
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Well, aren't you proud of yourself, "Circuit Breaker"!!
I must agree with HUSTLER on this one. You are not a FORMER scab as you attempt to describe yourself. You forever remain one. The fact that you deny to accept that reality is another matter. I completely understand that you would offer jobs to other scum like yourself. The fact that thousands of pilot jobs may be lost due to this weeks events in no way justifies that you go after them. In any case, real airlines hire back their furloughees first. Do not compare apples and oranges -- strikebreaking is condemned by all organized pilot groups around the world. If you choose not to be a part of a group, do not kid yourself, you forever remain a mercenary, immoral and undignified.
I must agree with HUSTLER on this one. You are not a FORMER scab as you attempt to describe yourself. You forever remain one. The fact that you deny to accept that reality is another matter. I completely understand that you would offer jobs to other scum like yourself. The fact that thousands of pilot jobs may be lost due to this weeks events in no way justifies that you go after them. In any case, real airlines hire back their furloughees first. Do not compare apples and oranges -- strikebreaking is condemned by all organized pilot groups around the world. If you choose not to be a part of a group, do not kid yourself, you forever remain a mercenary, immoral and undignified.
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Boy oh Boy what a bunch of hard done by people!
I assume you became pilots because:
a) You like flying
b) It looked like a nice little earner!
If it hasn't worked out for you then do something else, quit moaning about how tough you have it (although God knows 95% of the working population would like to have it that tough!)
I would be interested how you fair minded chaps would react if, say, the Mechs went on strike (for their fair share of that 'huge', never ending cake), threatened the viability of the company you work and your livlihoods?
Would you be calling the people drafted in to get you off the ground 'scabs', refuse to fly in solidarity and at the same time happily wave goodbye to your job?
I assume you became pilots because:
a) You like flying
b) It looked like a nice little earner!
If it hasn't worked out for you then do something else, quit moaning about how tough you have it (although God knows 95% of the working population would like to have it that tough!)
I would be interested how you fair minded chaps would react if, say, the Mechs went on strike (for their fair share of that 'huge', never ending cake), threatened the viability of the company you work and your livlihoods?
Would you be calling the people drafted in to get you off the ground 'scabs', refuse to fly in solidarity and at the same time happily wave goodbye to your job?
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Al ovcst - boy, do you have a problem! You carefully ignore that part of my sentence that says I have given jobs to strikers and scabs alike because it suits your narrow argument and you cannot understand how anyone could have a balanced approach to life. I have this image of you, eyes crossed, legs apart and a great big chip, not on your shoulder, but right up your....
By the way old chap, improperly conducted strikes are illegal in most civilised societies, and scabbing is legal in all countries. Add that fact to your chip...
And just to prove you wrong again - I will always be a scab, not just a former one, so there - I do admit it. (and will continue to lose no sleep over it)
Just to end on a congratulatory note, well done for working out the "circuit breaker" bit, although it was meant as a joke, not a puzzle!
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]
By the way old chap, improperly conducted strikes are illegal in most civilised societies, and scabbing is legal in all countries. Add that fact to your chip...
And just to prove you wrong again - I will always be a scab, not just a former one, so there - I do admit it. (and will continue to lose no sleep over it)
Just to end on a congratulatory note, well done for working out the "circuit breaker" bit, although it was meant as a joke, not a puzzle!
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]