ATTENTION B767/A340 CREWS!
Jolly Green Giant
Join Date: May 1999
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Watch yourself Stuka and others, you have no right to try and exclude this forum to anybody who is not a "profesional pilot." It says so in black and white and has been re-stated time and time again by the moderators.
Everyone has a right to speak on this forum and I think it's extremely beneficial to hear opinions from those outside the profession. Just keep to the goddamn debate without getting personal.
Everyone has a right to speak on this forum and I think it's extremely beneficial to hear opinions from those outside the profession. Just keep to the goddamn debate without getting personal.
Join Date: Aug 1998
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Don't many pilots out there find the faith in the mystical powers of the 'IFALPA ban' touching, if a bit sad?
I feel duty bound to point out that there are tens of thousands of pilots out there who would see any 'strike' in these terms: a group of pilots has declined to do their job for the pay offered. Having declined to do their job, the company has found people to replace them. There is no tragedy or moral outrage here. Too bad the strikers weren't a tad more aware though, as now their dependents have to suffer for their greed and hubris.
Your 'struck work' and 's**b' claptrap is about sixty years out of date.
Does whoever started this shrill thread (and about 90% of those and the Fragrant Harbour forum) REALLY believe that there are pilots out there who, in the face of mortgage payments and school fees, would hesitate for a nano-second in taking one of these jobs?
Cute, in a way. Like belief in Santa Claus...
I feel duty bound to point out that there are tens of thousands of pilots out there who would see any 'strike' in these terms: a group of pilots has declined to do their job for the pay offered. Having declined to do their job, the company has found people to replace them. There is no tragedy or moral outrage here. Too bad the strikers weren't a tad more aware though, as now their dependents have to suffer for their greed and hubris.
Your 'struck work' and 's**b' claptrap is about sixty years out of date.
Does whoever started this shrill thread (and about 90% of those and the Fragrant Harbour forum) REALLY believe that there are pilots out there who, in the face of mortgage payments and school fees, would hesitate for a nano-second in taking one of these jobs?
Cute, in a way. Like belief in Santa Claus...
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lookout Mtn Tennessee
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I agree with you Dropp the pilot...that the union threats are an anachronism the unions need to dispose of...yes guv...the biggest loosers are the passengers, and ultimately the employees once the pax abandon the carrier....taking a job vacated by another eg the aussie dispute '89, is not scabbing...they quit...but crossing an active legal picket line is a bit foolhardy....even if the dispute is for selfish reasons...as is most often the case...my 27+ year career ended at eal when we went on a sympathy strike for the most selfish sobs in the industry..the IAM...what a mistake...and some of my co-workers got labeled as scabs by alpa national, even though we were ordered back to work by our local mec...so ignore the rhetoric, the labels and threats...just sort out the facts and reasons for any labor dispute....look before leaping..
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Apparently there are certain things that never change, and jackasses like The Guv and Pete will always be around, not much we can do about that. But then again trust me guys there is justice at the end. They can come here and just say all they want, and the rights of the passenger, and the poor stockholders, and the cargo. Well I can almost cry, but in the end it is about one thing; guys like the Guv and Pete never made it. So the idea of crossing a picket line is so great to them because they can go in and destroy the lifes of real pilots and real people with real families. Now they can say they are something, and they are but not in the way they think. I know it is frustrating to come here and read posts like those, but they are free to do so I suppose. Just ignore them, apparently most people have ignored them before in their lives.
Stuka, thanks for the info, espero que al final todo salga bien. Calma.
Stuka, thanks for the info, espero que al final todo salga bien. Calma.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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I just want to find out from the pro-management types on here, can we safely assume that all pilot industrial action is "greedy, selfish, and irresponsible", and that whatever management action, or inaction, precipitated the pilot action is by definition " considerate, responsible, and justified."
Once we have that sorted, we would have to say that all employees should accept whatever is doled out by these altruistic and benevolent managements,without question, and continue to give their dedicated service as a matter of obligation to their customers, fellow employees and company shareholders.
I may have to modify my view that 90% of industrial strife is caused by inflexible, intransigent, and uncaring management seeking to maximise returns at any cost, not least employee health, safety, and welfare.
Like Guvnors constant bleating about level playing fields in route rights, there is a parallel with pilot employment, in that immigration, licencing and other barriers ensure that pilots are not a commodity freely tradeable on the world market, and therefore the pilot market is an uneven playing field at least as unfair as Guvnors.
I think I have to seek a quiet retreat somewhere where I can work on my submission gratitude and humility.
I will engage Guvnor, 411A, Pete O'Tube and others as tutors so that I can learn my lesson well.
Once we have that sorted, we would have to say that all employees should accept whatever is doled out by these altruistic and benevolent managements,without question, and continue to give their dedicated service as a matter of obligation to their customers, fellow employees and company shareholders.
I may have to modify my view that 90% of industrial strife is caused by inflexible, intransigent, and uncaring management seeking to maximise returns at any cost, not least employee health, safety, and welfare.
Like Guvnors constant bleating about level playing fields in route rights, there is a parallel with pilot employment, in that immigration, licencing and other barriers ensure that pilots are not a commodity freely tradeable on the world market, and therefore the pilot market is an uneven playing field at least as unfair as Guvnors.
I think I have to seek a quiet retreat somewhere where I can work on my submission gratitude and humility.
I will engage Guvnor, 411A, Pete O'Tube and others as tutors so that I can learn my lesson well.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Crazy max - now you've got me mad! I have flown the best the military has to offer and I have thousands of hours on Boeing's finest EFIS aircraft. A nationally approved training captain, airtester and examiner and currently involved in the third party training of airlines worldwide - I think I've made it. I've seen moaning minnies like you come and go, while the true professionals are still all around.
Now, who exactly are you? and what have you achieved in your little life? A PPL? an ATPL?
Now, who exactly are you? and what have you achieved in your little life? A PPL? an ATPL?
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Ahaaa....public bragging rights contest.
Thing is Pete ,old boy, how did you achieve all this, by undercutting the competition when their backs were turned, or the "ethical" route?
Alls fair in jobs and war, right?
Your humble submissive servant RF
edited to give comfort to Pete Otube
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: RightsFlyer ]
Thing is Pete ,old boy, how did you achieve all this, by undercutting the competition when their backs were turned, or the "ethical" route?
Alls fair in jobs and war, right?
Your humble submissive servant RF
edited to give comfort to Pete Otube
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: RightsFlyer ]
Join Date: Aug 2001
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RightsFlyer - my cards on the table, I am just another "management type".
But that does not automatically mean "pro-management" as you assume in your sectarian attitude. Management make errors and so do pilot bodies but the problem that airline management have is that the highest paid part of the workforce seems to be the one that is always crying poverty and hardship. Most pilots, quite rightly, earn more than most management but there are some pilots in the industry who are underpaid for the work they do. But is industrial action, which affects innocent people, the way to solve it?
But that does not automatically mean "pro-management" as you assume in your sectarian attitude. Management make errors and so do pilot bodies but the problem that airline management have is that the highest paid part of the workforce seems to be the one that is always crying poverty and hardship. Most pilots, quite rightly, earn more than most management but there are some pilots in the industry who are underpaid for the work they do. But is industrial action, which affects innocent people, the way to solve it?
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RF - no need to be so humble - getting a PPL takes a lot of dedication and hard work.
And I notice the use of "rights" in your handle and "rights" before "contest", whatever that means. You got some hang up with "rights"?
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Pete Otube ]
And I notice the use of "rights" in your handle and "rights" before "contest", whatever that means. You got some hang up with "rights"?
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Pete Otube ]
I am a figment of my own imagination
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Been management been a worker. The right to withold ones service due to grievience is matched by the employers right to seek others who will work for what is being offered. The use of abuse against those who will work coupled with emotive use of language about destroying others lives is nothing but abusive blackmail. You either accept the conditions or find another job. It's a tough life if if you can't hack it don't hang around and make it tough on everyone else. Everyone has to try and make a living and there are mechanisms that have evolved to deal with disputes in a reasonable manner. Abuse is not reasonable. "Scab" is an abusive term. It denotes a departure from reason. Unreasonable people are generaly the biggest pissers moaners and trouble makers and loudest shouters, abuse one of their tactics. Abusive, loud, disatisfied, pissers and moaners will always unfortunately be around I guess we simply have to put up with them.
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Pete,
Ref PPL (or ATPL for that matter)you're right no need for humility there, they are merely minor tests on the way to becoming a professional, but if you are the consummate professional you claim to be, you should know that.
My humility is actually due to the awe with which I am smitten when in the presence of the wisdom of airline management people, who can almost never get the sums right, but always know that any shortfall is clearly the fault of the greedy pilots.
Ref PPL (or ATPL for that matter)you're right no need for humility there, they are merely minor tests on the way to becoming a professional, but if you are the consummate professional you claim to be, you should know that.
My humility is actually due to the awe with which I am smitten when in the presence of the wisdom of airline management people, who can almost never get the sums right, but always know that any shortfall is clearly the fault of the greedy pilots.
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Rights Flyer - there are times when industrial action is indeed permissible such as when there are very real - and genuine, demonstrable safety issues at stake. I'd therefore appreciate it if you could provide examples of your view "that 90% of industrial strife is caused by inflexible, intransigent, and uncaring management seeking to maximise returns at any cost, not least employee health, safety, and welfare." The only dispute I can think of that would be reasonably connected with that is the current CX one.
What I would object to is the blackmailing tactics of one party where they have agreed to certain terms and conditions - and now wish to rewrite those terms and conditions. I've used the term 'party' advisedly as that in my view also agrees to management making unilateral changes.
If I employ you as a pilot and we agree that you'll be paid £x per annum with an annual increase of y% then that, as far as I am concerned is it. You willingly agreed to that - I did not hold a gun at your head and make you sign the contract. If you didn't like the terms of the agreement, you had the option to walk away.
To strike for improved terms and conditions is therefore a breach of that agreement - and from a management perspective I'd say that you have effectively resigned as you have, by definition, said that you no longer want that contract to apply. I am therefore free to take whatever sanction may be open to me in the agreement - and of course to replace your services with those of someone else.
I'm most interested to see that you attribute "mmigration, licencing and other barriers ensure that pilots are not a commodity freely tradeable on the world market, and therefore the pilot market is an uneven playing field" - the reality is that the only thing preventing the free movement of pilots around the world is the anachronistic and outdated seniority system - which is largely maintained in force by union pressure. Certainly, airline managements would be only to happy to get rid of it tomorrow!
There are of course good and bad management teams - the best around at the moment, I'd say, are probably at CO and WN. But it's a tough job and at the very top the CEO has to make decisions that will affect the lives of hundreds - or thousands - of people.
Whilst the "greedy pilots" might not be to blame for many problems, I'd like to refer you to Delta Air Lines, where the recent pay settlement with DALPA has created an additional burden of US$500 million per annum to the company's already high overhead. That amount is more than the cumulative profits made throughout the last boom period - how on earth do you think they are going to be able to keep paying it, especially during a deep recession? They can't - which means one of two things: either layoffs will be required in which case those people will be the formerly highest paid people in the unemployment office; or the entire company goes bust (unlikely perhaps in the case of Delta - but that's what they said about Pan Am and TWA 15 years ago!) affecting everyone involved.
Paterbrat - agree 110%!
What I would object to is the blackmailing tactics of one party where they have agreed to certain terms and conditions - and now wish to rewrite those terms and conditions. I've used the term 'party' advisedly as that in my view also agrees to management making unilateral changes.
If I employ you as a pilot and we agree that you'll be paid £x per annum with an annual increase of y% then that, as far as I am concerned is it. You willingly agreed to that - I did not hold a gun at your head and make you sign the contract. If you didn't like the terms of the agreement, you had the option to walk away.
To strike for improved terms and conditions is therefore a breach of that agreement - and from a management perspective I'd say that you have effectively resigned as you have, by definition, said that you no longer want that contract to apply. I am therefore free to take whatever sanction may be open to me in the agreement - and of course to replace your services with those of someone else.
I'm most interested to see that you attribute "mmigration, licencing and other barriers ensure that pilots are not a commodity freely tradeable on the world market, and therefore the pilot market is an uneven playing field" - the reality is that the only thing preventing the free movement of pilots around the world is the anachronistic and outdated seniority system - which is largely maintained in force by union pressure. Certainly, airline managements would be only to happy to get rid of it tomorrow!
There are of course good and bad management teams - the best around at the moment, I'd say, are probably at CO and WN. But it's a tough job and at the very top the CEO has to make decisions that will affect the lives of hundreds - or thousands - of people.
Whilst the "greedy pilots" might not be to blame for many problems, I'd like to refer you to Delta Air Lines, where the recent pay settlement with DALPA has created an additional burden of US$500 million per annum to the company's already high overhead. That amount is more than the cumulative profits made throughout the last boom period - how on earth do you think they are going to be able to keep paying it, especially during a deep recession? They can't - which means one of two things: either layoffs will be required in which case those people will be the formerly highest paid people in the unemployment office; or the entire company goes bust (unlikely perhaps in the case of Delta - but that's what they said about Pan Am and TWA 15 years ago!) affecting everyone involved.
Paterbrat - agree 110%!
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Hey Pete!!!
Thanks Man, you made my day!
Wow!!! Amazing stats about yourself, you actually helped me even more to make my point with your reply to my post.
ATPL, PPL? Who cares? I know what I am, I know what I do, and I truly don't need to honk my own horn in here like you did.
Thanks, and have a great day.
Thanks Man, you made my day!
Wow!!! Amazing stats about yourself, you actually helped me even more to make my point with your reply to my post.
ATPL, PPL? Who cares? I know what I am, I know what I do, and I truly don't need to honk my own horn in here like you did.
Thanks, and have a great day.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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The selfish way to improve your pay and conditions is to screw everyone else, no matter how innocent, and go on strike. The unselfish way is to find another job.
Strikers are the real scab in this world.
Strikers are the real scab in this world.
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Guv,
I agree that to seek to change a contract in mid-stream is "welching", but my observation is that contracts expire, sometimes by years, and it is in the negotiation of a new contract that drags on for months and months that frustration sets in and pilots become erratic.
It is often the case that the company will attempt to reinterpret many areas of the agreement during it's currency, notably in work rules. Is this acceptable?
When you sign a contract for three years there is no expectation or obligation that it will be renewed without change on expiry.
Surely once one joins an outfit one is not expected to work until you drop under the same terms and conditions that may have been agreed twenty or thirty years ago.
What about the "give-backs" of a few years ago, the unions thought that they would have some say on how this capital was deployed, but found out that the same mistakes that had caused the losses were allowed to continue.
When profits came back, there was no noticeable rush to share with those who had sacrificed.
You seem to think that pilots should be willing to work cheap so that air travellers can travel cheaply, but I don't see many doctors who work for peanuts so that all patients,rich or poor, can have access to first class medical care. The rich get firstclass medical care, the poor get what's left.
I don't know many lawyers who are willing to work for peanuts so that the downtrodden can have a fair shake in the courts. The quality of justice available to the impecunious is well known.
So are pilots to be held to a different standard of philanthropy?
Over the years the cost of air travel in real terms has constantly declined. It is now much cheaper to fly than thirty years ago, all and sundry swan off to exotic corners of the world, their standard of living has obviously increased, but you grudge pilots the same facility.
Shame on you , you rich capitalist oppressor Guvnor!!
I agree that to seek to change a contract in mid-stream is "welching", but my observation is that contracts expire, sometimes by years, and it is in the negotiation of a new contract that drags on for months and months that frustration sets in and pilots become erratic.
It is often the case that the company will attempt to reinterpret many areas of the agreement during it's currency, notably in work rules. Is this acceptable?
When you sign a contract for three years there is no expectation or obligation that it will be renewed without change on expiry.
Surely once one joins an outfit one is not expected to work until you drop under the same terms and conditions that may have been agreed twenty or thirty years ago.
What about the "give-backs" of a few years ago, the unions thought that they would have some say on how this capital was deployed, but found out that the same mistakes that had caused the losses were allowed to continue.
When profits came back, there was no noticeable rush to share with those who had sacrificed.
You seem to think that pilots should be willing to work cheap so that air travellers can travel cheaply, but I don't see many doctors who work for peanuts so that all patients,rich or poor, can have access to first class medical care. The rich get firstclass medical care, the poor get what's left.
I don't know many lawyers who are willing to work for peanuts so that the downtrodden can have a fair shake in the courts. The quality of justice available to the impecunious is well known.
So are pilots to be held to a different standard of philanthropy?
Over the years the cost of air travel in real terms has constantly declined. It is now much cheaper to fly than thirty years ago, all and sundry swan off to exotic corners of the world, their standard of living has obviously increased, but you grudge pilots the same facility.
Shame on you , you rich capitalist oppressor Guvnor!!
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Pete,
I just edited my "rights" post for suitable emphasis, but it ocurred to me that with a handle like yours you should not really want to start a "psychoanalysis of handles" war... you know.... glass houses, stones, etc. perhaps you did not realise, but "Peter" "Tube" could have connotations.
I just edited my "rights" post for suitable emphasis, but it ocurred to me that with a handle like yours you should not really want to start a "psychoanalysis of handles" war... you know.... glass houses, stones, etc. perhaps you did not realise, but "Peter" "Tube" could have connotations.
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RF- You got me beat about connotations so I think I better explain. Pete Otube is just a straight play on Pitot tube, and Pete O'Hete is a straight play on pitot heat. My other names are Guy Devane and Lee Dingedge but I guess you will be able to work those out now! It's all in good fun and I try hard to balance out all those who take this anonymous rumour forum seriously!