BALPA BA Ballot 94% In Favour
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Comparing CC remuneration with that of pilots is irrelevant. Just as comparing a consultant in the NHS with that of a nurse - the jobs are very very different as are the routes you travel along to get there.
What counts is what the company thinks you are paid in relation to market rate. At the moment BA obviously think - and there is ample evidence to support such a view - that their cabin crew are, on average, paid over the odds. Any company director would be negligent in failing to react to this information.
What counts is what the company thinks you are paid in relation to market rate. At the moment BA obviously think - and there is ample evidence to support such a view - that their cabin crew are, on average, paid over the odds. Any company director would be negligent in failing to react to this information.
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No JT, They are being opportunist. They are screwing you and they are screwing CC. Happens in every recession. Talk the company into the ground whilst operating full aircraft with bulging coffers in the hope you will be able to chop back those pesky crew costs in order to raise profits and get that fat bonus before you retire. What's next? Six month contracts such as Iberia crew endure. This is just the start.
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Pinkaroo...
If all crew were on 2000pm and "close to 900 hours" we probably wouldn't have a problem.
Are you not aware that a top scale Eurofleet CSD has a basic of £45,000 and does nowhere near 900 hours?
Who do you think does all those one sector days??
Stop worrying about pilots and take a closer look at your own collegues, they are the ones that should be making the sacrifice to prevent you from Having to.
Would you care to add an old contract CSD and Purser's earnings/hours to your little table to get a more balanced picture?. No, thought not.
If all crew were on 2000pm and "close to 900 hours" we probably wouldn't have a problem.
Are you not aware that a top scale Eurofleet CSD has a basic of £45,000 and does nowhere near 900 hours?
Who do you think does all those one sector days??
Stop worrying about pilots and take a closer look at your own collegues, they are the ones that should be making the sacrifice to prevent you from Having to.
Would you care to add an old contract CSD and Purser's earnings/hours to your little table to get a more balanced picture?. No, thought not.
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Pinkaroo.
Many years ago, back when the command course was residential and held in leafy Surrey, we spent a day being lectured on aviation law by Russ Kane, an Aer Lingus Captain who was also a barrister specialising in Aviation Law. It was an illuminating, sobering, and very....scary.... day. He highlighted exactly the responsibility that holding the position of aircraft commander means in law, and all of us walked out of the room, heads spinning, thinking what on Earth were we doing this for. Montreal Convention, Warsaw Convention, ANO, ICAO, but the single biggest thing he impressed home was this....
You know that big book in the cockpit Pinkaroo? The one that is red on ETOPS aircraft, called the "Tech Log." Well, signing that places certain responsibilities on the aircraft commander. Certain legal responsibilities that can be pursued through court to the end. The Aircraft Commander, by signing acceptance of the aircraft, signs those responsibilities onto his/her shoulders by dint of holding the licence granted by the issuing authority.
Do you know the bottom line of that responsibility? If you want it, given your role within the company, you can have it. However, you neither know it, nor take it on your shoulders, that is why primarily there is a fundamental difference in remuneration. After all, there is in reality only two ways that you are rewarded, it is for revenue generation( as in premiership footballers) or acceptance of serious responsibility.
Next time you venture into a cockpit, take a look in the document folder; its location varies within aircraft, but I'm sure the Flight Crew, (not Flight Deck, that is the location in which you will find the Flight Crew, not their designation) will show you.
Then, find the insurance document. Have a look at the single-incident liabiity figure. That is what you, as Captain, sign on to your shoulders every time you sign an aircraft out, on the behalf of the company. Yes, of course it is a worst-case scenario, crashing an aircraft into a convention hall full off nasty, rapacious American Lawyers would be an example, but that's the figure.
You can argue for similarity of treatment all you like, but you are not legally responsible for the $2 Billion merely by inhabiting the same aluminium tube.
If you want to be responsible for it, and all that entails, then by all means, have it. However, you don't, therefore your role, and mine, are in no way compatible. Not an emotive point, merely a legal statement of fact.
An aircraft is not a democracy. It is a pyramid. A legal pyramid, with the commander at the top, and everyone else, copilot, crew, passengers of no legal consequence when it comes to culpability. Sorry, but that is how it is. Of course, people will aim for the biggest pockets, and go for the company as the Commander is the company's representative, but that is why the differential exists.
BA 747-400.
Year 9 First Officer.
£4800-£5200 pcm after tax inc alllowances.
Close to 900 hrs per year.
13/14 days off pm
final salary pension.
Health care
LOL
Staff travel
BA Eurofleet Maincrew
Year 3
1200-2100 after tax inc allowances
Close to 900 hrs per year
10 days off pm
NO healthcare
Staff travel
NO loss of job cover
And CC are overpaid according to you fellows! CC must take a paycut to save the company?
Year 9 First Officer.
£4800-£5200 pcm after tax inc alllowances.
Close to 900 hrs per year.
13/14 days off pm
final salary pension.
Health care
LOL
Staff travel
BA Eurofleet Maincrew
Year 3
1200-2100 after tax inc allowances
Close to 900 hrs per year
10 days off pm
NO healthcare
Staff travel
NO loss of job cover
And CC are overpaid according to you fellows! CC must take a paycut to save the company?
You know that big book in the cockpit Pinkaroo? The one that is red on ETOPS aircraft, called the "Tech Log." Well, signing that places certain responsibilities on the aircraft commander. Certain legal responsibilities that can be pursued through court to the end. The Aircraft Commander, by signing acceptance of the aircraft, signs those responsibilities onto his/her shoulders by dint of holding the licence granted by the issuing authority.
Do you know the bottom line of that responsibility? If you want it, given your role within the company, you can have it. However, you neither know it, nor take it on your shoulders, that is why primarily there is a fundamental difference in remuneration. After all, there is in reality only two ways that you are rewarded, it is for revenue generation( as in premiership footballers) or acceptance of serious responsibility.
Next time you venture into a cockpit, take a look in the document folder; its location varies within aircraft, but I'm sure the Flight Crew, (not Flight Deck, that is the location in which you will find the Flight Crew, not their designation) will show you.
Then, find the insurance document. Have a look at the single-incident liabiity figure. That is what you, as Captain, sign on to your shoulders every time you sign an aircraft out, on the behalf of the company. Yes, of course it is a worst-case scenario, crashing an aircraft into a convention hall full off nasty, rapacious American Lawyers would be an example, but that's the figure.
You can argue for similarity of treatment all you like, but you are not legally responsible for the $2 Billion merely by inhabiting the same aluminium tube.
If you want to be responsible for it, and all that entails, then by all means, have it. However, you don't, therefore your role, and mine, are in no way compatible. Not an emotive point, merely a legal statement of fact.
An aircraft is not a democracy. It is a pyramid. A legal pyramid, with the commander at the top, and everyone else, copilot, crew, passengers of no legal consequence when it comes to culpability. Sorry, but that is how it is. Of course, people will aim for the biggest pockets, and go for the company as the Commander is the company's representative, but that is why the differential exists.
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Plodding, if you know them add them for fairness.
GS, The figures quoted ARE Heathrow Eurofleet figures.
Plan 10, I hold a ppl and have signed the booky wooky myself. You may carry the burden upon your shoulders but you are supported by a magnificent support team of professionals. I am not screaming for your financial blood. I am on record as supporting your position. Some of you are screaming for CC blood. You just really need to know that not everyone at LHR is on the money you think. And the money I quote includes multiple nights away every week. Do take a look. I don't believe you all get 140k p.a. Just take a look at what new contract earn and what they need to earn to live in the Southeast.
GS, The figures quoted ARE Heathrow Eurofleet figures.
Plan 10, I hold a ppl and have signed the booky wooky myself. You may carry the burden upon your shoulders but you are supported by a magnificent support team of professionals. I am not screaming for your financial blood. I am on record as supporting your position. Some of you are screaming for CC blood. You just really need to know that not everyone at LHR is on the money you think. And the money I quote includes multiple nights away every week. Do take a look. I don't believe you all get 140k p.a. Just take a look at what new contract earn and what they need to earn to live in the Southeast.
Controversial, moi?
So if the money is so bad and the job so awful (nights away, etc.) why do it? If the money was that poor then BA would need to raise it to retain staff.
I have had well over twenty years to observe the intransigent, archaic industrial rules which BASSA have managed to negotiate coupled with quite extraordinary salaries. We are at the end game and it isn't going to pretty nor will BASSA ever be quite the same again.
I have had well over twenty years to observe the intransigent, archaic industrial rules which BASSA have managed to negotiate coupled with quite extraordinary salaries. We are at the end game and it isn't going to pretty nor will BASSA ever be quite the same again.
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Pinkaroo wrote:
You actually believe the Bassa line?
No-one outside Bassa's wendy house believes that BA and the industry as a whole isn't in dire trouble.
Do you genuinely believe that BA can afford to pay twice the market rate and endure such restrictive inflexiblity in its cabin crew department, and still remain competitive with the likes of LH, AF, VS etc, even after the current recession? Premium travel has changed, permanently. Everyone, including those travellers themselves, says so. Having 7 c/crew on an A321 with no fixed links, or insisting on 16 crew on some LH flights, together with 2 local nights after an extra sector, simply don't provide the company with a competitive cost base after the market starts to recover. That's why BA has had to demonstrate that it's going to achieve these cost savings in order to get cash from the city to see us through the winter.
I realise that Pinkaroo lacks the analytical skills to recognise these facts, but it seems more and more crew that I fly with are gaining a voice, and are willing to question the Bassa line - they have to, before it's all too late and Bassa drive them into unemployment. It's to those crew I'm making this post.
Talk the company into the ground whilst operating full aircraft with bulging coffers in the hope you will be able to chop back those pesky crew costs in order to raise profits and get that fat bonus before you retire.
No-one outside Bassa's wendy house believes that BA and the industry as a whole isn't in dire trouble.
Do you genuinely believe that BA can afford to pay twice the market rate and endure such restrictive inflexiblity in its cabin crew department, and still remain competitive with the likes of LH, AF, VS etc, even after the current recession? Premium travel has changed, permanently. Everyone, including those travellers themselves, says so. Having 7 c/crew on an A321 with no fixed links, or insisting on 16 crew on some LH flights, together with 2 local nights after an extra sector, simply don't provide the company with a competitive cost base after the market starts to recover. That's why BA has had to demonstrate that it's going to achieve these cost savings in order to get cash from the city to see us through the winter.
I realise that Pinkaroo lacks the analytical skills to recognise these facts, but it seems more and more crew that I fly with are gaining a voice, and are willing to question the Bassa line - they have to, before it's all too late and Bassa drive them into unemployment. It's to those crew I'm making this post.
and Classic agree with you.. we don't want BA to be the next Panam..
Join Date: May 2002
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Market rate and BA CC wages?
BA Cabin Crew wages bear no resemblance to market rate. The Missus used to be CC for a well known charter airline out of LGW, her pay slips (from 4 years ago admittedly) varied between £850 to £1800 and that’s full time. Around the same time one of her friends was an IFS for Virgin (equivalent to BA CSD) who told us that her take home varied between £1500 and £1900.
This explains why, generally, Cabin Crew who work for other airlines either tend to be young (living with parents or in shared house) and will do the job for 3-7 years or will be the 2nd wage earner in the household. At BA the terms and conditions for CC are such that it allows people to stay, make a career and able to be the principle wage earner.
A lot of crew who say that they are not overpaid would do well to look at other airlines and ask themselves what are the T’s and C’s like elsewhere? Pilots in BA if they were “transplanted” to another similar carrier (e.g. Virgin, Lufthansa, Air France, United etc) would find comparable Ts and Cs.
I have seen payslips and heard anecdotal figures for Long Haul Heathrow CC which state full time wages for main crew at around £1400 - £2900 depending on allowances, Pursers £1800 - £3500. So out in the real world, what sort of jobs are out there that would pay this sort of money?
A very good friend of mine is an Air Traffic Controller who has been qualified and “pushing tin” for 4 years – take home pay each month? £2,700 and this is after training for years to get into his position.
One of my brothers is a computer programmer for a Bank in the City, he has 4 A levels, an Engineering Degree and a Masters in Computer Programming. He’s been in the industry for 7 years, starts work at 7.45am, finishes at around 7.00pm and his take home pay at the end of each month is... £ 2,900.
Food for thought.
BA Cabin Crew wages bear no resemblance to market rate. The Missus used to be CC for a well known charter airline out of LGW, her pay slips (from 4 years ago admittedly) varied between £850 to £1800 and that’s full time. Around the same time one of her friends was an IFS for Virgin (equivalent to BA CSD) who told us that her take home varied between £1500 and £1900.
This explains why, generally, Cabin Crew who work for other airlines either tend to be young (living with parents or in shared house) and will do the job for 3-7 years or will be the 2nd wage earner in the household. At BA the terms and conditions for CC are such that it allows people to stay, make a career and able to be the principle wage earner.
A lot of crew who say that they are not overpaid would do well to look at other airlines and ask themselves what are the T’s and C’s like elsewhere? Pilots in BA if they were “transplanted” to another similar carrier (e.g. Virgin, Lufthansa, Air France, United etc) would find comparable Ts and Cs.
I have seen payslips and heard anecdotal figures for Long Haul Heathrow CC which state full time wages for main crew at around £1400 - £2900 depending on allowances, Pursers £1800 - £3500. So out in the real world, what sort of jobs are out there that would pay this sort of money?
A very good friend of mine is an Air Traffic Controller who has been qualified and “pushing tin” for 4 years – take home pay each month? £2,700 and this is after training for years to get into his position.
One of my brothers is a computer programmer for a Bank in the City, he has 4 A levels, an Engineering Degree and a Masters in Computer Programming. He’s been in the industry for 7 years, starts work at 7.45am, finishes at around 7.00pm and his take home pay at the end of each month is... £ 2,900.
Food for thought.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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And a doctor in Africa earns $50 per month.
Funnily enough, those factors drive my salary, your salary, Bronco's salary, Bronco's brother's salary .... you get the idea yet?
Controversial, moi?
I have just learned that longhaul cabin crew get a payment if the bunk rest area has any problems such as the lighting stuck in the on position! The numbers are in the order of several hundred pounds each. This was apparently agreed in recent times.
Extraordinary and illustrative of the bonkers agreements which BASSA have managed to agree with equally bonkers and supine cabin services managers.
Extraordinary and illustrative of the bonkers agreements which BASSA have managed to agree with equally bonkers and supine cabin services managers.
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Pinkaroo
I'm not sure what your point was? In the UK a Foundation House Officer (junior doctor) will take home around £1400 pcm, which will rise up to £7100 pcm for top tier Consultants working solely in NHS hospitals. Newly qualified Junior Dr's in South Africa take home £540 pcm and when I was in Tanzania last year, pilots who were flying us around on internal flights were on £300 pcm.
There were a couple of points I was trying to make: as Human Factor pointed out, wages are influenced by many factors; that BA CC earn far more than the industry average and also to point out other jobs (Air Traffic Controller, Computer Programmer) that paid comparable wages required higher levels of qualifications than the 2 GCSEs (English & Maths) that BA require from it's cabin crew applicants.
What other salaried jobs out there pay as much for such minimal qualifications? I'd be interested to know.
Whilst on a personal level I feel sadness for individual members of our cabin crew over the impending storm, on another level I believe that BA cannot sustain paying it's CC such a large premium over industry norm and that it cannot allow BASSA to dictate the operation.
I'm not sure what your point was? In the UK a Foundation House Officer (junior doctor) will take home around £1400 pcm, which will rise up to £7100 pcm for top tier Consultants working solely in NHS hospitals. Newly qualified Junior Dr's in South Africa take home £540 pcm and when I was in Tanzania last year, pilots who were flying us around on internal flights were on £300 pcm.
There were a couple of points I was trying to make: as Human Factor pointed out, wages are influenced by many factors; that BA CC earn far more than the industry average and also to point out other jobs (Air Traffic Controller, Computer Programmer) that paid comparable wages required higher levels of qualifications than the 2 GCSEs (English & Maths) that BA require from it's cabin crew applicants.
What other salaried jobs out there pay as much for such minimal qualifications? I'd be interested to know.
Whilst on a personal level I feel sadness for individual members of our cabin crew over the impending storm, on another level I believe that BA cannot sustain paying it's CC such a large premium over industry norm and that it cannot allow BASSA to dictate the operation.
Last edited by Bucking Bronco; 24th Jul 2009 at 16:05.
