BALPA BA Ballot 94% In Favour
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Don't expect any reasonable response. Both Pinkeroo and Poof in Boots on another thread seem to have a wonderful ability to read information given to them, ask no questions as to its validity and then selectively reproduce elements taking the information out of context. Such as the pilot agreement.
Given the fact they seem so proud of their professional abilities I truly hope they have a better comprehension of the documentation they read for their day jobs!
ps. Still waiting to see the link to that financial document you mentioned Pinkeroo.
Given the fact they seem so proud of their professional abilities I truly hope they have a better comprehension of the documentation they read for their day jobs!
ps. Still waiting to see the link to that financial document you mentioned Pinkeroo.
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Calm down ladies. I'll drag the article out for you. Read it on the train yesterday.Think it was in the Evening Standard. Give me a minute. You have all been very defensive about your tea. Forget the interference, just don't hold your breath if you display the arrogance of MM. (All CC are thick bastards and FD are intellectual giants).
Controversial, moi?
pinkaroo
Your comments are as wildly inaccurate as your offensive interpretation of what I wrote. From what I have read of the BASSA briefings to its members it is my opinion that many good people are being led by utter morons to a certain catastrophe.
The rot started years ago and BASSA has cast anything which wasn't based at the golden runways to the devil, just look at the abysmal contract at LGW. Had BASSA leadership demonstrated any ability and foresight it would have negotiated inevitable changes in an adult and constructive manner which would not have ended up with the LHR CC in the position which they find themselves today i.e. overpaid and with outdated, rigid and unsustainable working agreements.
The world has moved on for us all. If I compare my career with that of colleagues retired at 50 with an APS pension probably over double my projected pension having flown circa 400hrs p.a. enjoying week long slips in exotic places it is chalk and cheese. While accepting the changes to my working life I am fortunate that I have a qualification and experience level which relatively few have and a job which a company can not fill with a new recruit after 3 weeks training. Hence our position in no way compares with that of a cabin crew member no matter how good they are at their job. Hence BA CC will, whatever you may hope for, be brought rapidly down to market rates.
It is apparent to all but the imbecilic that Willie Walsh has a master plan and BASSA are oh so predictably walking straight into the oblivion which he has carefully planned for them. It is unfortunate that the membership are being so misled.
You statement about tea, upon which you have backtracked, is wonderfully illustrative of the contemptible attitude a significant minority of you and your ilk display towards pilots. Fortunately I know from experience that you are outnumbered by the many decent, and currently very worried, members of cabin crew.
Your comments are as wildly inaccurate as your offensive interpretation of what I wrote. From what I have read of the BASSA briefings to its members it is my opinion that many good people are being led by utter morons to a certain catastrophe.
The rot started years ago and BASSA has cast anything which wasn't based at the golden runways to the devil, just look at the abysmal contract at LGW. Had BASSA leadership demonstrated any ability and foresight it would have negotiated inevitable changes in an adult and constructive manner which would not have ended up with the LHR CC in the position which they find themselves today i.e. overpaid and with outdated, rigid and unsustainable working agreements.
The world has moved on for us all. If I compare my career with that of colleagues retired at 50 with an APS pension probably over double my projected pension having flown circa 400hrs p.a. enjoying week long slips in exotic places it is chalk and cheese. While accepting the changes to my working life I am fortunate that I have a qualification and experience level which relatively few have and a job which a company can not fill with a new recruit after 3 weeks training. Hence our position in no way compares with that of a cabin crew member no matter how good they are at their job. Hence BA CC will, whatever you may hope for, be brought rapidly down to market rates.
It is apparent to all but the imbecilic that Willie Walsh has a master plan and BASSA are oh so predictably walking straight into the oblivion which he has carefully planned for them. It is unfortunate that the membership are being so misled.
You statement about tea, upon which you have backtracked, is wonderfully illustrative of the contemptible attitude a significant minority of you and your ilk display towards pilots. Fortunately I know from experience that you are outnumbered by the many decent, and currently very worried, members of cabin crew.
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M. Mouse, No back track. I updated my comment, marked incomplete, in order to pointedly ensure it was not cynically intrepreted. If you seriously think food interference is the my way think again. What I am saying is the atmosphere will be bloody dreadful hence my comment about family relations. If you did not mean to imply Mekon type abilities you have certainly come across with that message. If you are offended by my comments your skin is not as thick as I believe it is. Your online persona implies otherwise. You certainly imply cerebral superiority. I won't bother with the quotation cut and paste. You know what you wrote.
CM. If I had the resources I would certainly make such an acquisition once the dispute dust settles. BALPA believe the price will certainly rise and so do you or you would not have agreed to it.
Jazz, Cannot find the article but am quite sure it was a comment in the ES. I note you have sought to specify your argument by twisting my own words. I stand by mine. If you doubt BALPA's financial accuity best you light your brazier outside their offices. In the meantime let's watch the share price rise shall we?
CM. If I had the resources I would certainly make such an acquisition once the dispute dust settles. BALPA believe the price will certainly rise and so do you or you would not have agreed to it.
Jazz, Cannot find the article but am quite sure it was a comment in the ES. I note you have sought to specify your argument by twisting my own words. I stand by mine. If you doubt BALPA's financial accuity best you light your brazier outside their offices. In the meantime let's watch the share price rise shall we?
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Locked door, how apt a handle. It further evidences your attitude to CC colleagues together with your last post. As for your comment. My word would appear not to be sufficient then?
Nope. Your arguments are based on emotion and half truths and you lash out at others to disguise your inadequacies.
Fact - The airline industry is it trouble.
Fact - BA needs to pay the market rate for its employees in order for it to convince the city it is competitively managed in order to obtain further financing
Fact - Instead of negotiating reasonably before the June 30th deadline your union stonewalled and then cried foul when BA didn't turn up to a meeting that was never even scheduled on July 1st. They missed an opportunity BALPA grasped by failing to understand the situation and devising a solution instead of shouting 'NO' and insisting it's all a con.
Fact - Your union has consistently misrepresented the pilot agreement to its members despite having been handed full details. It will cost each member a lot (circa £6k for me) and the profit share shares are dependent on a 10% operating margin, good customer satisfaction and punctuality results.
I dispair for my c/c friends and colleagues who are being herded to disaster by a union who are feeding them half truths and lies and who are undemocratically insisting they know what's best without asking the general membership. I suspect if you held a genuine blind ballot asking what the membership really wants you'd get a very very different result to the one at Kempton Park. Big kahoonas to the few who voted no at that rally. I think BASSA is a good union for protecting fixed links, days off after trips and disruption payments. They don't understand and are unable to deal with the big issues such as pensions, open skies and the 'credit crunch'.
I await the future with interest.
LD
ps The handle is an ironic moan at how my job has changed for the worse since 9/11. It is not a dig at crew, but you wouldn't understand that.
Fact - The airline industry is it trouble.
Fact - BA needs to pay the market rate for its employees in order for it to convince the city it is competitively managed in order to obtain further financing
Fact - Instead of negotiating reasonably before the June 30th deadline your union stonewalled and then cried foul when BA didn't turn up to a meeting that was never even scheduled on July 1st. They missed an opportunity BALPA grasped by failing to understand the situation and devising a solution instead of shouting 'NO' and insisting it's all a con.
Fact - Your union has consistently misrepresented the pilot agreement to its members despite having been handed full details. It will cost each member a lot (circa £6k for me) and the profit share shares are dependent on a 10% operating margin, good customer satisfaction and punctuality results.
I dispair for my c/c friends and colleagues who are being herded to disaster by a union who are feeding them half truths and lies and who are undemocratically insisting they know what's best without asking the general membership. I suspect if you held a genuine blind ballot asking what the membership really wants you'd get a very very different result to the one at Kempton Park. Big kahoonas to the few who voted no at that rally. I think BASSA is a good union for protecting fixed links, days off after trips and disruption payments. They don't understand and are unable to deal with the big issues such as pensions, open skies and the 'credit crunch'.
I await the future with interest.
LD
ps The handle is an ironic moan at how my job has changed for the worse since 9/11. It is not a dig at crew, but you wouldn't understand that.
Last edited by Locked door; 18th Jul 2009 at 19:24.
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Fact - BA needs to pay the market rate for its employees in order for it to convince the city it is competitively managed in order to obtain further financing
Remember, times are tough right now. It's a blip, everything will go back to normal - eventually. Nothing fundamentally changes, the thing is that people have a herd mentality and often can't see beyond the ends of their noses. If you forsee a world without banks, the internal combustion engine or indeed a pre-eminent airline at Heathrow, so be it. I'd say you'd profit from betting otherwise.
The cabin crew are to be applauded. They have manoeuvred themselves into a highly comfortable and lucrative position when they in fact are essentially, replaceable, given the nature of their work.
The pilots, IMHO, being by nature somewhat neurotic and liable to frighten, have accepted a paycut to the tune of £26M? Were this paltry amount able to make a meaningful difference to the survival of BA, I'd recommend polishing up your CVs - the truth is that it doesn't, however, the decision is yours.
BA will be here in 5, 10 years. CC agreement or no CC agreement. If the CC stand firm, they will continue living high off the hog for a while to come, as have you all to date. The pilots flinched and they will quite literally pay for it.
Junior trash
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No we won't, the pilot deal requires all other departments to reach their savings target or it simply won't be implemented. By dealing early BALPA avoided the risk of the target increasing.
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The company has recently proposed that the pension scheme gives up a bank guarantee of circa stg 300 million to help it through its current crisis. Whilst I hope this sum will never be called upon, what are the implications for the APS & NAPS pension schemes? Can someone please explain what is the bottom line for both the schemes if this money is drawn down.
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Oooh Locked, I bet even your perspiration is acidic! Anyway I guess the financial journalists are conspiring with me then. Perhaps you'll squeal when the cheap 250 hour pilots start queuing for your job. Didn't you all get abit excited when a certain french operation sprung up? Treading on your toes were they? How did you respond to that? Oh yes, you threatened IA. OK for you but not for others!
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Caudillo wrote:
Very perspicacious Caudillo, in fact just as Willie is!
He too recognises the overgenerous terms and conditions, inflexible agreements, and the fact that it takes 3 weeks to train to become a steward/ess.
Now that the cabin crew have had their applause
, it's time for them to face the music
. And it's going to be so much fun watching Bassa cat fight with anyone within range to defend their position, and to sell everyone down the river who isn't old contract LHR crew, and then to blame their subsequent demise on anyone and everyone but themselves.
Can't wait!
The cabin crew are to be applauded. They have manoeuvred themselves into a highly comfortable and lucrative position when they in fact are essentially, replaceable, given the nature of their work.
He too recognises the overgenerous terms and conditions, inflexible agreements, and the fact that it takes 3 weeks to train to become a steward/ess.
Now that the cabin crew have had their applause
, it's time for them to face the music. And it's going to be so much fun watching Bassa cat fight with anyone within range to defend their position, and to sell everyone down the river who isn't old contract LHR crew, and then to blame their subsequent demise on anyone and everyone but themselves.Can't wait!
Controversial, moi?
caudillo
By extension if all departments stand firm, all departments will continue to live high of the hog and BA will survive anyway.
You point out that our revenue has currently faltered and everything will return to normal. I would suggest that your grasp of economics or even basic arithmetic is on par with your analysis of the worldwide economic situation.
By extension if all departments stand firm, all departments will continue to live high of the hog and BA will survive anyway.
You point out that our revenue has currently faltered and everything will return to normal. I would suggest that your grasp of economics or even basic arithmetic is on par with your analysis of the worldwide economic situation.
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Hotel Mode, it's just my opinion but it seems obvious to me that you have. That the deal relies on others making cuts is of no consequence at all. It's a red herring, an inducement, nothing more. It makes it more palatable for you to accept a pay cut because you feel you're not being singled out. I'd suggest that for some it may also be satisfying to feel they're hastening Bassa and their harpies being brought down a peg or two.
Here's a fact, BA is an airline. As far as I'm aware it's not much of a diversified airline. That's to say, it doesn't have a great deal in the way of sidelines - for example, a big package holiday branch, hotels, branding etc. The business and the money is in flying places.
It's also widely held that BA is in trouble. I would imagine, short of raiding the pension fund, that BA will rely on flying places to get out of this trouble.
Have you noticed that your position within the equation is absolutely indispensable? You mention Balpa dealt early to avoid a worse target - and if you'd decided not to play, what then? Would you be replaced with a wet leased operation, an army of pilots they've got hiding up their sleeves somewhere? Perhaps a fleet of pilotless aircraft parked in a desert near Hounslow?
The answer's no. Certain things are indispensable and believe it or not, you're one of them. You're in the position of power and instead of behaving like bastards, you've let your feelings, emotions and worries get in the way of what should be a cold business transaction - their pay for your labour.
I'd like to mention that I have a great deal of respect for the astute manner in which BA pilots recognised and attempted to fight the Open Skies affair, so I am surprised in how easily you rolled over here.
I appreciate that the union looked at the books and declared itself satisfied the cuts were needed. My question is, if they're needed then what are they needed for? What does your £26million buy? A reprieve, temporary survival with disaster imminent?
If that's the case, and you're serious about saving your outfit you should be taking a cut of several magnitudes larger. All hands to the pumps.
If however it's the toss between a profit or loss, or a loss and a bigger loss, then what you've achieved is permanent in response to something temporary and passing.
This £26 million, negotiatied away when you hold every card in the pack is either too much or nowhere enough.
Here's a fact, BA is an airline. As far as I'm aware it's not much of a diversified airline. That's to say, it doesn't have a great deal in the way of sidelines - for example, a big package holiday branch, hotels, branding etc. The business and the money is in flying places.
It's also widely held that BA is in trouble. I would imagine, short of raiding the pension fund, that BA will rely on flying places to get out of this trouble.
Have you noticed that your position within the equation is absolutely indispensable? You mention Balpa dealt early to avoid a worse target - and if you'd decided not to play, what then? Would you be replaced with a wet leased operation, an army of pilots they've got hiding up their sleeves somewhere? Perhaps a fleet of pilotless aircraft parked in a desert near Hounslow?
The answer's no. Certain things are indispensable and believe it or not, you're one of them. You're in the position of power and instead of behaving like bastards, you've let your feelings, emotions and worries get in the way of what should be a cold business transaction - their pay for your labour.
I'd like to mention that I have a great deal of respect for the astute manner in which BA pilots recognised and attempted to fight the Open Skies affair, so I am surprised in how easily you rolled over here.
I appreciate that the union looked at the books and declared itself satisfied the cuts were needed. My question is, if they're needed then what are they needed for? What does your £26million buy? A reprieve, temporary survival with disaster imminent?
If that's the case, and you're serious about saving your outfit you should be taking a cut of several magnitudes larger. All hands to the pumps.
If however it's the toss between a profit or loss, or a loss and a bigger loss, then what you've achieved is permanent in response to something temporary and passing.
This £26 million, negotiatied away when you hold every card in the pack is either too much or nowhere enough.
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A view from Alpha Tech...
As I've worked for BA for some 22 years now.. I do feel slightly qualified to comment on flight deck and cabin crew. I work on the line, and it's been my pleasure to meet some of the nicest people I've ever met inside the cockpit.. there have also been a few I'd like to forget! But more importaintly the pilots are a clever bunch, they pay a significant amount of their wages to their association (money well spent IMHO) and they know how BA play the game. The cabin crew on the other hand are a different kettle of fish. Having 3 tiers of pay terms and conditions makes things difficult. I don't think there is much sympathy for CC within the company at large, mainly because we all see those csds and pursers on the old contract earning such a high rate of pay compared with the new contract and those at LGW. BASSA appears to have their heads collectivley in the sand .. or somewhere else! 
I hope we can get things sorted and keep our jobs and pensions ..
I hope we can get things sorted and keep our jobs and pensions ..
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M Mouse, not all departments are as central to the business of an airline as the one that I'm guessing you're in. I accept you all have your worries but as pilots you've got to recognise that you're not the fairies on the top of the Christmas tree. (You're the manly trunk that keeps the whole shebang up)
Everything will return to normal yes. And if you keep tossing a coin it will eventually land on a certain side. It's all just a question of the time it'll all take, but it will happen, of that you can be assured.
Everything will return to normal yes. And if you keep tossing a coin it will eventually land on a certain side. It's all just a question of the time it'll all take, but it will happen, of that you can be assured.
Pinkaroo - there you go again quoting your imaginary journalists. Back up your statements with a reference or quit posting.
Caudillo - The law as laid down but the CAA states that apart from a few minor exceptions the holder of the AOC has to employ pilots directly.
Caudillo - The law as laid down but the CAA states that apart from a few minor exceptions the holder of the AOC has to employ pilots directly.
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This is like a Ping pong match, but not as much fun to watch.
The CC unions have gained/maintained a great life/work balance for their members, others should respect that CC would like their unions to do as they have done over many many years.
Market Rate, Market Rate, and some mention the figure of 37% savings required by the company, the CC unions would prob not want to go past 5 or 8% at a max, so this is only going one way, if the company is having unhappy CC after the changes, they will need big savings as the long term effect of unhappy CC will be unhappy passengers etc etc.
Good luck to all the CC, you will need it.
The CC unions have gained/maintained a great life/work balance for their members, others should respect that CC would like their unions to do as they have done over many many years.
Market Rate, Market Rate, and some mention the figure of 37% savings required by the company, the CC unions would prob not want to go past 5 or 8% at a max, so this is only going one way, if the company is having unhappy CC after the changes, they will need big savings as the long term effect of unhappy CC will be unhappy passengers etc etc.
Good luck to all the CC, you will need it.
Controversial, moi?
caudillo
You mention the pension fund. How can BA raid the pension fund (not to mention it has a £3bn deficit)? BA needs every saving it can find and it speaks volumes about where we sit as a group that the Flight Ops target was set at the figure it was. If I accepted your argument about Flight Ops savings being so small as to be pointless, which I don't, I can just hear the howls of complaint from other groups that 'greedy pilots have got off with no changes again' when BASSA are already claiming that in their mis-information to their members.
You seem to believe in industrial might, and we are a powerful group, would win the day. I seem to recall Arthur Scargill thinking the same or how about Sabena?
Remind me what happened to Swissair, Pan-Am, British Caledonian and others too numerous to mention.
Willie Walsh screwed us over Open Skies although subsequent world events have stuffed that company anyway, it will be gone in not many months. WW will sort the obstructive unions and the BA's cost base once and for all and it will be leaner and fitter for it. Your inference that we (pilots) rolled over is an insult to the people who give up their time to represent us and whose judgement I trust. You plainly disagree.
You mention the pension fund. How can BA raid the pension fund (not to mention it has a £3bn deficit)? BA needs every saving it can find and it speaks volumes about where we sit as a group that the Flight Ops target was set at the figure it was. If I accepted your argument about Flight Ops savings being so small as to be pointless, which I don't, I can just hear the howls of complaint from other groups that 'greedy pilots have got off with no changes again' when BASSA are already claiming that in their mis-information to their members.
You seem to believe in industrial might, and we are a powerful group, would win the day. I seem to recall Arthur Scargill thinking the same or how about Sabena?
Remind me what happened to Swissair, Pan-Am, British Caledonian and others too numerous to mention.
Willie Walsh screwed us over Open Skies although subsequent world events have stuffed that company anyway, it will be gone in not many months. WW will sort the obstructive unions and the BA's cost base once and for all and it will be leaner and fitter for it. Your inference that we (pilots) rolled over is an insult to the people who give up their time to represent us and whose judgement I trust. You plainly disagree.
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M Mouse.
BA are raiding the pension fund, where else is #stg 300M coming from, is this legal? and should not the Pension Regulator be looking at this.? see my post number #51
BA are raiding the pension fund, where else is #stg 300M coming from, is this legal? and should not the Pension Regulator be looking at this.? see my post number #51