BA288 Emergency at Phoenix
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sb sfo
Nonetheless fumes from outside the a/c do enter the cabin that is certain from exactly where doesn't alter the point I was making ie opening a door without knowledge of outside hazards that may or not be visible could exacerbate the situation .
Indeed there are speakers in the ceiling of the 436 dunno if there are any below the bins I assumed there were but if there aren't , there should be .
Nonetheless fumes from outside the a/c do enter the cabin that is certain from exactly where doesn't alter the point I was making ie opening a door without knowledge of outside hazards that may or not be visible could exacerbate the situation .
Indeed there are speakers in the ceiling of the 436 dunno if there are any below the bins I assumed there were but if there aren't , there should be .
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Just been talking to a colleague who also "slid" out of BA228, who corroborates "Potential"s description of events almost identically. He is a Boeing captain (returning from the sim), and said that the acrid smell (IHO) smelled like hot Skydrol and caused a burning in the throat and coughing.
He did not hear an order to evacuate on the PA either!
He did not hear an order to evacuate on the PA either!
PA System Failure?
Is it possible to make an announcement in a specific cabin as there was definitely an emergency evacuation called in the rear most cabin?
wit taking the slides with a cabin bag.
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The management of a dynamic scenario does not always require a complete understanding of the primary cause of the situation. If you can diagnose it and completely deal with it then fine but most are hybrid and complex. The Skip is interested in risk alleviation and he/she did a good job imho here. That is of course perceived risk alleviation in an intensely time limited environment.
We often learn collectively from post incident inquiries but need to use our judgement in 'live' situations.
There is little more frustrating than a 9 month inquest eventually finding that we were slightly too/insufficently risk averse at the time when we only had a very short time to assess and deal with a problem.
We often learn collectively from post incident inquiries but need to use our judgement in 'live' situations.
There is little more frustrating than a 9 month inquest eventually finding that we were slightly too/insufficently risk averse at the time when we only had a very short time to assess and deal with a problem.
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My brother and his wife were on this flight,he is an airline Captain & told me the evacuation was a complete shambles from beginning to end.(Obviously those congratulating themselves on a job well done are BA people).BA need to look very carefully at this incident and learn some hard lessons.Things were not helped by the poor behaviour of many passengers who insisted on taking everthing but the kitchen sink down the slides with them,one passenger threw his large case down the slide which hit a preceding passenger in the back injuring him.Ten minutes after evacuation announced pax still evacuating!Hardly a job well done.
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Having been on the flight I can say with some confidence that as far as I could see all passengers were off within a few minutes.
The criticism I would have is that the FC took too long to decide to return to the stand after the fumes were detected. In the cabin I was in (rear) I would say the evac was handled as well as could be expected in the circumstances.
The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins? Why was everybody just led into the terminal building and told to go to the BA desk (shouldn't everyone be put into a central, controlled area, a conference room or similar)?
The criticism I would have is that the FC took too long to decide to return to the stand after the fumes were detected. In the cabin I was in (rear) I would say the evac was handled as well as could be expected in the circumstances.
The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins? Why was everybody just led into the terminal building and told to go to the BA desk (shouldn't everyone be put into a central, controlled area, a conference room or similar)?
My brother and his wife were on this flight,he is an airline Captain & told me the evacuation was a complete shambles from beginning to end.(Obviously those congratulating themselves on a job well done are BA people).BA need to look very carefully at this incident and learn some hard lessons.Things were not helped by the poor behaviour of many passengers who insisted on taking everthing but the kitchen sink down the slides with them,one passenger threw his large case down the slide which hit a preceding passenger in the back injuring him.Ten minutes after evacuation announced pax still evacuating!Hardly a job well done.
It's impossible for the Cabin Crew to control an orderly evacuation. The most they can do is to provide the means by which the passengers can evacuate within a minimum time frame. Some passengers use this means while others don't. So there is the good and the room for lessons learned by the crew (I doubt that the next group of evacuating passengers will have learned anything new)
It makes me think of the Titanic movie where one of the ship officers fires a pistol over the heads of the more non complying passengers
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The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins?
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I posted the second post on this thread, added a couple more, then just read with interest the ongoing conversations. I was initially dismayed to read William's first post, because it appeared to contradict the information I had provided earlier. However, Potential's later posts (I think he was seated in the same zone as my wife) appeared to support what I had said.
I had heard about the group of Pilots in Training who were on the flight (of whom I assume Potential was one). I have a PPL, although with no objective other than enjoying my leisure flying (in Arizona as often as possible). However, like Potential, I reckon it does give me a better understanding of how I would react to such a situation. Why is it that a disappointing number of long-term commercial pilots have such a sour view of PPLs ("spam cans", etc., etc...). Did they all wake up day and found they could fly a B737, or did they actually start by flying a C152?? (OK, or maybe some of them moved over from Mil flying).
It is interesting to read the recent post about the airline captain who was also on the flight and who also does not appear to have a high opinion of the evac procedures he witnessed.
Did any passengers hear anything at all from BA yet?? My wife has not and this seems seems a little disappointing so many days after the event (all the passengers were invited to completed a form with their contact details).
I had heard about the group of Pilots in Training who were on the flight (of whom I assume Potential was one). I have a PPL, although with no objective other than enjoying my leisure flying (in Arizona as often as possible). However, like Potential, I reckon it does give me a better understanding of how I would react to such a situation. Why is it that a disappointing number of long-term commercial pilots have such a sour view of PPLs ("spam cans", etc., etc...). Did they all wake up day and found they could fly a B737, or did they actually start by flying a C152?? (OK, or maybe some of them moved over from Mil flying).
It is interesting to read the recent post about the airline captain who was also on the flight and who also does not appear to have a high opinion of the evac procedures he witnessed.
Did any passengers hear anything at all from BA yet?? My wife has not and this seems seems a little disappointing so many days after the event (all the passengers were invited to completed a form with their contact details).
Heavy carry-on cases are no good; Remove big overhead compartments.
The big heavy carry-on cases are no good. Post # 130 on this page tells how some idiot on the slide hit someone else in the back with a heavy case. The companies can easily stop the heavy carry-ons at the gate. Best to Remove the big overhead compartments and put a smaller shelf for coats, as in the old 707 and DC-8. 
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Oldtora,
The carriers will never do that as it would force every passenger to check in bags for the hold when the trend now is on-line check-in and persuade SLF to travel light (to save lbs/kgs and therefor fuel) and to avoid (as much as is possible) reliance on old style check-in desks, baggage handlers and queues. This trend is to minimise ground handling overheads not to maximise cabin safety!
There's no $$$ in safety.......especially when airlines are in a market where every cent counts!
MB
The carriers will never do that as it would force every passenger to check in bags for the hold when the trend now is on-line check-in and persuade SLF to travel light (to save lbs/kgs and therefor fuel) and to avoid (as much as is possible) reliance on old style check-in desks, baggage handlers and queues. This trend is to minimise ground handling overheads not to maximise cabin safety!
There's no $$$ in safety.......especially when airlines are in a market where every cent counts!
MB
Oversize or overweight carry-ons
Takes me back to a wonderful bit of industrial action taken by TAA cabin crew in Australia in the early 1980s. They put every carry-on bag through the size guage and on the scales: anything too big or too heavy, they tagged and sent down to the hold. Oh, and they enforced the one carry-on bag per passenger rule as well. 
You can imagine the chaos at the boarding gates.
And no, of course it wasn't "industrial action", they were just helping the companies safety record by enforcing the safety rules.
IIRC, whatever their beef was, TAA caved in within a few days.
I have no idea what the dispute was about, or where the rights and wrongs lay, but as an example of playing the company rules against itself, it was brilliant.
You can imagine the chaos at the boarding gates.
And no, of course it wasn't "industrial action", they were just helping the companies safety record by enforcing the safety rules.
IIRC, whatever their beef was, TAA caved in within a few days.
I have no idea what the dispute was about, or where the rights and wrongs lay, but as an example of playing the company rules against itself, it was brilliant.
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Did any passengers hear anything at all from BA yet?? My wife has not and this seems seems a little disappointing so many days after the event (all the passengers were invited to completed a form with their contact details).
I have heard nothing. Like you I find that a bit surprising. I would have thought talking to passengers whould have been part of the investigation procedure. Of course I am sure someone on here will be able to confirm or otherwise.
I have heard nothing. Like you I find that a bit surprising. I would have thought talking to passengers whould have been part of the investigation procedure. Of course I am sure someone on here will be able to confirm or otherwise.
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I posted the second post on this thread, added a couple more, then just read with interest the ongoing conversations. I was initially dismayed to read William's first post, because it appeared to contradict the information I had provided earlier. However, Potential's later posts (I think he was seated in the same zone as my wife) appeared to support what I had said
The account I provided is accurate for the cabin I was in (rear).
The account I provided is accurate for the cabin I was in (rear).
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Quote:
The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins?
The staff are however exceptionally good at collecting excess baggage fees for return travel after the lowering of the recent weight restictions(even selling you a handy tote bag for $25 to put all your excess gear in and carry on as cabin baggage (two pieces, no weight restriction)), and then selecting you for a special security check thus ensuring the delight of an additional half hour with PHX TSA. The idea of 300 odd pax milling around on the apron with large aircraft taxying around and no plan does not surprise me (have been using PHX for the past 12 years on a regular basis).
The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins?
The staff are however exceptionally good at collecting excess baggage fees for return travel after the lowering of the recent weight restictions(even selling you a handy tote bag for $25 to put all your excess gear in and carry on as cabin baggage (two pieces, no weight restriction)), and then selecting you for a special security check thus ensuring the delight of an additional half hour with PHX TSA. The idea of 300 odd pax milling around on the apron with large aircraft taxying around and no plan does not surprise me (have been using PHX for the past 12 years on a regular basis).
It's not that the folk who work there don't give a poop, it's that there are just to few of them.
There are lots of vendors coming in all the time to replenish "vital" supplies like every popular brand of bottled water and ice cream flavor, but if you need real help, like having landed and discovered that all the wheels and tires have been removed from your car parked in long-term, well, good luck.
Virtual ghost town.
On the other hand, BA does a fair number of flights from Barry Goldwater, and I would have assumed that they would have been a bit more prepared.
Looks like this downsizing stuff is bad for everyone, not just pilots and cabin crew.
That's not a knock - I have ultimate respect for both, as they work in conjunction with each other to keep my big bloated butt safe and comfortable.
What's to be done?
.
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Did any passengers hear anything at all from BA yet??
Last edited by Potential; 17th Sep 2009 at 13:14.