BA288 Emergency at Phoenix
Removal of seat power
If an IFE was making smoke and fumes, would the CC have a way to remove the power?
Maybe even there should be an accessible breaker on the seat
Maybe even there should be an accessible breaker on the seat
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The incident will be fully investigated and the result, with recommendations, published for all to see. Then even the passengers who were on board, who think they know what happened, will find out what actually happened.
The crew has been debriefed and the investigation has already begun.
The crew has been debriefed and the investigation has already begun.
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Overstress, I'm well aware that there will be a full investigation. I would like to think that all the pax would be included in this process, but I'm not sure if this will be the case. In order to build up a complete understanding of events onboard everyone who was present should be debriefed.
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I assume by the comments above that the investigation findings will be made public. Any idea of a timescale?
With regards to your comment about the passengers, I personally do not proclaim to know what happened. I just wanted to relay my experience to help fill in the blanks on the speculation and conjecture.
With regards to your comment about the passengers, I personally do not proclaim to know what happened. I just wanted to relay my experience to help fill in the blanks on the speculation and conjecture.
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What would perhaps be useful is for not only the crew to be debriefed but some of the pax as well.
The CAA, airlines and crews could well benefit from such input as what an airline THINKS might happen in such a situation is not the same as the passengers think.
The 'them & us' attitude of some crew might improve if constructive comments such as some of those provided by actual pasengers were taken onboard?
Just a thought like
The CAA, airlines and crews could well benefit from such input as what an airline THINKS might happen in such a situation is not the same as the passengers think.
The 'them & us' attitude of some crew might improve if constructive comments such as some of those provided by actual pasengers were taken onboard?
Just a thought like
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WD,
prelim reports sometimes don't take that long (months), but the final report could easily take a year. In my case (ref 737 earlier in this thread) it's stil under investigation.
Good luck waiting and I relate to your brother and you and your family. Smoke on board, real smoke, is something you do not want to relive twice!
Greetz,
Tsunami
prelim reports sometimes don't take that long (months), but the final report could easily take a year. In my case (ref 737 earlier in this thread) it's stil under investigation.
Good luck waiting and I relate to your brother and you and your family. Smoke on board, real smoke, is something you do not want to relive twice!
Greetz,
Tsunami
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Passengers will be contacted and interviewed, I'm sure.
Yes, passengers are as good at thinking as anyone else, but that isn't the point.
Many passengers see things and do not understand their meaning, equally, there are some who are trained.
I am a 747 pilot, if I had been in that cabin I wouldn't have known much either, and I may not have heard the evac alarm if it was cancelled quickly.
It's a long way from the flight deck to the alleges smoke source, it takes a while to assimilate the info being passed by interphone and come to a sensible decision.
BA's current safety training is concentrating on evacuation drills, I have just done it, a full exercise in the cabin mockup is undertaken with debrief afterwards.
Yes, passengers are as good at thinking as anyone else, but that isn't the point.
Many passengers see things and do not understand their meaning, equally, there are some who are trained.
I am a 747 pilot, if I had been in that cabin I wouldn't have known much either, and I may not have heard the evac alarm if it was cancelled quickly.
It's a long way from the flight deck to the alleges smoke source, it takes a while to assimilate the info being passed by interphone and come to a sensible decision.
BA's current safety training is concentrating on evacuation drills, I have just done it, a full exercise in the cabin mockup is undertaken with debrief afterwards.
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This is a very interesting topic .
Thanks to potential/williamd for their first hand accounts .
A couple of points from a flight crew perspective .
As has been stated the decision to evacuate cannot be taken lightly the cabin crew have for sensible reasons strict criteria as to when they can individually initiate an evacuation themselves.
Passengers unilaterally initiating an evacuation themselves could have disastrous consequences ( engines running / exhausts / wheel fire are just a few ).
Communication between flight and cabin crew is vital the captain cannot possibly know the exact extent of the threat immediately in a rapidly deteriorating situation .
When distractions are present hearing is one the first senses to be lost also PA speakers are mounted below the overhead storage ( mostly ) so people standing in the cabin are less likely to hear PAs especially if there is noise in the cabin. Williamds' evidence would support a PA was made and that the flight crew were conducting a logical decision making process whlst balancing the risk of injury during an unnecessary evacuation . Its a judgement call and it seems to me to have gone just about right.
Ironically the present refresher for 747 BA flight crew involves uncontrolled smoke in the cabin leading to an evacuation but from the downwind position in low visibilty procs. rather than during taxi out . I'll put it into my lesson plan from now on .
We can all be experts after the event and this incident will no doubt hone SOPs in a time critical environment .
It's great everyone got away with only minor injuries / inconvenience ( although not inconsiderable )
Thanks to potential/williamd for their first hand accounts .
A couple of points from a flight crew perspective .
As has been stated the decision to evacuate cannot be taken lightly the cabin crew have for sensible reasons strict criteria as to when they can individually initiate an evacuation themselves.
Passengers unilaterally initiating an evacuation themselves could have disastrous consequences ( engines running / exhausts / wheel fire are just a few ).
Communication between flight and cabin crew is vital the captain cannot possibly know the exact extent of the threat immediately in a rapidly deteriorating situation .
When distractions are present hearing is one the first senses to be lost also PA speakers are mounted below the overhead storage ( mostly ) so people standing in the cabin are less likely to hear PAs especially if there is noise in the cabin. Williamds' evidence would support a PA was made and that the flight crew were conducting a logical decision making process whlst balancing the risk of injury during an unnecessary evacuation . Its a judgement call and it seems to me to have gone just about right.
Ironically the present refresher for 747 BA flight crew involves uncontrolled smoke in the cabin leading to an evacuation but from the downwind position in low visibilty procs. rather than during taxi out . I'll put it into my lesson plan from now on .
We can all be experts after the event and this incident will no doubt hone SOPs in a time critical environment .
It's great everyone got away with only minor injuries / inconvenience ( although not inconsiderable )
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Evacuation initiation....
I'm an ex-military pilot so forgive my lack of knowledge in the civvy AT world but as a fairly frequent flyer still as SLF I have a fairly straight forward question to ask.
As SLF I try and sit next, or at least close, to an emergency exit. I pay attention to the briefing and try to be "aware" as to what's going on around me.
Many on these exits are not "manned" by a member of the cabin crew and the pax (me) is briefed how to open the door/window.
My philosophy has been to lead rather than to follow - it's in my training so if faced with the situation in Phoenix I would like to say that I would have made it 100% clear to the cabin crew that there was a problem. And faced with in-decision/in-action on their part I would have no hesitation when fumes/smoke (or whatever) made breathing/seeing difficult in opening said exit on my own initiative.
The question is, is the cabin crew permitted to initiate an evacuation without being instructed by the flight deck? If so, what are the circumstances and what would be the repercussions for the crew by senior management for doing so in a case like this? Would they be praised or hung out to dry? Not an easy decision I'd admit but I'd prefer to have a switched-on crew down the back, able to make whatever decision needed - and justify it afterwards - rather than "sheep". Judging by the eyewitness accounts it can't have been very pleasant for the pax.
MB
As SLF I try and sit next, or at least close, to an emergency exit. I pay attention to the briefing and try to be "aware" as to what's going on around me.
Many on these exits are not "manned" by a member of the cabin crew and the pax (me) is briefed how to open the door/window.
My philosophy has been to lead rather than to follow - it's in my training so if faced with the situation in Phoenix I would like to say that I would have made it 100% clear to the cabin crew that there was a problem. And faced with in-decision/in-action on their part I would have no hesitation when fumes/smoke (or whatever) made breathing/seeing difficult in opening said exit on my own initiative.
The question is, is the cabin crew permitted to initiate an evacuation without being instructed by the flight deck? If so, what are the circumstances and what would be the repercussions for the crew by senior management for doing so in a case like this? Would they be praised or hung out to dry? Not an easy decision I'd admit but I'd prefer to have a switched-on crew down the back, able to make whatever decision needed - and justify it afterwards - rather than "sheep". Judging by the eyewitness accounts it can't have been very pleasant for the pax.
MB
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Insider Rumor Mill
You guys criticize the 'fly-by media' (if I may borrow and mangle a phrase) constantly for publishing half-truths and conjecture, but now we have 5 in-house pages of it and counting. If we in-the-know can't hold our tongues how can we expect the TV stations to do better ?
Where to get 300 bottles of water, indeed. Inquiring minds...
Where to get 300 bottles of water, indeed. Inquiring minds...
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I have a burn/abrasion on my elbow I believe caused by the slide. Not particularly painful but in a spot that makes it irritating as every time I lean on my elbow it annoys. I was actually shown on the local news getting my elbow taped and it is now on youtube. Must have 14 mins 55 secs of fame left.
My wife has a sizable burn blister on her hand, still present after almost 4 days later. She says she has had worse from ironing.
My wife has a sizable burn blister on her hand, still present after almost 4 days later. She says she has had worse from ironing.
Madbob,
Excellent to know there are such strong leaders not afraid to take matters into their own hands. Next time you have any doubts just crack on and self-evacuate. It will be interesting to see what you look like when you've been spat out the back of a running RB211. Don't know why airlines bother teaching expensive SEP modules when the passengers can do it better themselves.
Oh, and paranoid - if it was one of your mates who shouted out about a fire on board, give them a slap from me. The last thing needed at a time like that are panic merchants. Even if there is a fire, when is shouing about it going to do anything else than make the situation worse when the crew are trying to deal with it?
Excellent to know there are such strong leaders not afraid to take matters into their own hands. Next time you have any doubts just crack on and self-evacuate. It will be interesting to see what you look like when you've been spat out the back of a running RB211. Don't know why airlines bother teaching expensive SEP modules when the passengers can do it better themselves.
Oh, and paranoid - if it was one of your mates who shouted out about a fire on board, give them a slap from me. The last thing needed at a time like that are panic merchants. Even if there is a fire, when is shouing about it going to do anything else than make the situation worse when the crew are trying to deal with it?
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I assume by the comments above that the investigation findings will be made public. Any idea of a timescale?
My philosophy has been to lead rather than to follow - it's in my training so if faced with the situation in Phoenix I would like to say that I would have made it 100% clear to the cabin crew that there was a problem. And faced with in-decision/in-action on their part I would have no hesitation when fumes/smoke (or whatever) made breathing/seeing difficult in opening said exit on my own initiative.
The question is, is the cabin crew permitted to initiate an evacuation without being instructed by the flight deck? If so, what are the circumstances and what would be the repercussions for the crew by senior management for doing so in a case like this? Would they be praised or hung out to dry?
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Potential
I am a little bit concerned by your description of both your and your groups interaction in all of this. Can you confirm that you were directly helping the BA cabin crew or where you taking a cavalier approach by taking the situation into your own control? I appreciate you are learning to be a commercial pilot but remember...YOU ARE JUST LEARNING and you clearly have yet to undergo your CRM training, or if not...maybe you need to take it again.
I am concerned that you were tempted to go and get a BCF yourself. What would that have achieved if you could not see flames? Do you have any idea how much panic your colleague may have caused by entering the rear cabin and shouting "dont come in here there is a fire" etc etc. Why could you all not just leave the highly trained and far more experienced BA crew continue with what they were doing? Please clear up this little grey areas if you can.
Williamd,
Interesting first hand account. As for the TSA/Security people prior to when you boarded. BA is one of the only remaining european airlines serving PHX (Not sure but I think LH have or are pulling out) and always attracts the huge number of TSA staff as it is sort of a training flight for them. So in answer to your suspicions...no, they was probably nothing going on, they were just looking for something to do. If you think PHX was bad you should see MIA on occasion.
You were wrong to get your luggage, to turn around and swear at a passenger for getting their book was simple hypocriscy. When you went back on stand you could have been on the aircraft for ages (regardless of a situation or not) so there was really no need to join the mob who got up and clamoured for their luggage but at the same time, I suppose its an easy mistake to make.
Often in situations like this the worst cause of injury are the passengers. I would imagine that no communication was made to the cabin as if it had done it would have created hysteria which in itself could have caused serious injury. From what I can read into this it would appear that the crew called an evacuation at the correct time.
I too have heard that a passenger did indeed open an exit on the left which was not manned (BA have a policy that when an aircraft is on stand each pair of doors needs to only be manned by one crew member so that the other crew member may be freed up for duties or in this case I would imagine they were info running)was opened by a passenger despite the pleads from the crew member on the otherside not to do it. This is scary as that person may have little consideration for their own safety but the sad fact is that by opening that door others may have followed into a hazard! I am amazed with all the pushing and shoving that takes place that no one fell out of the gaping whole as the door was not armed (therefore no manual inflation handle visible as it is attached to the girt bar which is only fixed when in automatic).
All in all it would appear that the BA crew did an exceptional job in a rapidly changing situation. I wouldnt be surprised if we learn that the only reason an evacuation was called was simply because someone did open a door when they shouldnt have and this would have given the captain the impression that the situation was deteriorating rapidly. But that is mere speculation on my part.
As for inaudible PAs, its possible and very much so on the 747. Not ideal, infact kind of scary but I would ask those sitting in D zone (the area where Potential was sitting) if they heard any boarding PA's?
The fact that you were kept in such a closely knit space on the ground beside the aircraft is a bit scary and far from ideal.I seriously hope that this is addressed by the PHX airport authorities as passengers should have been lead at least 100ms upwind of the aircraft in any situation (unless there is a brick wall in the way)!
As for Potential and Williamd, just a bit of constructive criticism, dont take it personally, especially considering I was not there! LOL. Anyway, it is too late now. Fair play to you for in general remaining calm and not being afraid to get back onboard and complete the journey!
I am a little bit concerned by your description of both your and your groups interaction in all of this. Can you confirm that you were directly helping the BA cabin crew or where you taking a cavalier approach by taking the situation into your own control? I appreciate you are learning to be a commercial pilot but remember...YOU ARE JUST LEARNING and you clearly have yet to undergo your CRM training, or if not...maybe you need to take it again.
I am concerned that you were tempted to go and get a BCF yourself. What would that have achieved if you could not see flames? Do you have any idea how much panic your colleague may have caused by entering the rear cabin and shouting "dont come in here there is a fire" etc etc. Why could you all not just leave the highly trained and far more experienced BA crew continue with what they were doing? Please clear up this little grey areas if you can.
Williamd,
Interesting first hand account. As for the TSA/Security people prior to when you boarded. BA is one of the only remaining european airlines serving PHX (Not sure but I think LH have or are pulling out) and always attracts the huge number of TSA staff as it is sort of a training flight for them. So in answer to your suspicions...no, they was probably nothing going on, they were just looking for something to do. If you think PHX was bad you should see MIA on occasion.
You were wrong to get your luggage, to turn around and swear at a passenger for getting their book was simple hypocriscy. When you went back on stand you could have been on the aircraft for ages (regardless of a situation or not) so there was really no need to join the mob who got up and clamoured for their luggage but at the same time, I suppose its an easy mistake to make.
Often in situations like this the worst cause of injury are the passengers. I would imagine that no communication was made to the cabin as if it had done it would have created hysteria which in itself could have caused serious injury. From what I can read into this it would appear that the crew called an evacuation at the correct time.
I too have heard that a passenger did indeed open an exit on the left which was not manned (BA have a policy that when an aircraft is on stand each pair of doors needs to only be manned by one crew member so that the other crew member may be freed up for duties or in this case I would imagine they were info running)was opened by a passenger despite the pleads from the crew member on the otherside not to do it. This is scary as that person may have little consideration for their own safety but the sad fact is that by opening that door others may have followed into a hazard! I am amazed with all the pushing and shoving that takes place that no one fell out of the gaping whole as the door was not armed (therefore no manual inflation handle visible as it is attached to the girt bar which is only fixed when in automatic).
All in all it would appear that the BA crew did an exceptional job in a rapidly changing situation. I wouldnt be surprised if we learn that the only reason an evacuation was called was simply because someone did open a door when they shouldnt have and this would have given the captain the impression that the situation was deteriorating rapidly. But that is mere speculation on my part.
As for inaudible PAs, its possible and very much so on the 747. Not ideal, infact kind of scary but I would ask those sitting in D zone (the area where Potential was sitting) if they heard any boarding PA's?
The fact that you were kept in such a closely knit space on the ground beside the aircraft is a bit scary and far from ideal.I seriously hope that this is addressed by the PHX airport authorities as passengers should have been lead at least 100ms upwind of the aircraft in any situation (unless there is a brick wall in the way)!
As for Potential and Williamd, just a bit of constructive criticism, dont take it personally, especially considering I was not there! LOL. Anyway, it is too late now. Fair play to you for in general remaining calm and not being afraid to get back onboard and complete the journey!
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Madbob - In answer to your question and as former c crew - yes the cabin crew can initiate an evacuation without command from the flight crew.
However and this is a big however the situation has to clearly warrant it - heavy smoke in the cabin, fuselage breaks, fire etc etc. I remember one of the sep trainers once saying that if you need to ask "should I?" then you shouldn't. This appears to be a definate "should I" situation, very unclear and rapidly changing.
If you did iniaite an evac without good reason then yes, you would be in trouble - the last thing you want onboard is a crewmember who reaches for the door at the least sign of a problem.
In my experience I've only had a couple of 'near squeaks' where evacuation was a possibility. Once coming in from BKK with a hydraulic problem (can't elaborate because my tec knowlede is next to nil!) but the upshot was the fire crew would meet the A/C on the ground and there was a possibility of light smoke entering the cabin - we were briefed not to evac unless the situation deteriorated markedly, the call being ours.
As it transpired no smoke, no fire, no evacuation and one very relieved crew member!
However and this is a big however the situation has to clearly warrant it - heavy smoke in the cabin, fuselage breaks, fire etc etc. I remember one of the sep trainers once saying that if you need to ask "should I?" then you shouldn't. This appears to be a definate "should I" situation, very unclear and rapidly changing.
If you did iniaite an evac without good reason then yes, you would be in trouble - the last thing you want onboard is a crewmember who reaches for the door at the least sign of a problem.
In my experience I've only had a couple of 'near squeaks' where evacuation was a possibility. Once coming in from BKK with a hydraulic problem (can't elaborate because my tec knowlede is next to nil!) but the upshot was the fire crew would meet the A/C on the ground and there was a possibility of light smoke entering the cabin - we were briefed not to evac unless the situation deteriorated markedly, the call being ours.
As it transpired no smoke, no fire, no evacuation and one very relieved crew member!
Last edited by bunkrest; 14th Jul 2009 at 17:07.
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I am a trained CCM and so are 4 of the others who were with me. As I said, I decided to leave the BCF to one of the operating crew and they thanked some of my colleagues for their constructive help in shouting relevant commands to other pax.
I'm not sure who initially made the call "fire, fire, fire" but I would say that whoever did it made the correct decision. The SEP training that I received taught us in that the first instance, the best thing to do is to make the crew that are around you aware of the fire and the fastest way to do this is to shout fire. That way someone else who is near an interphone can inform the flight deck and someone else can bring the necessary fire fighting equipment if it is not immediately to hand at the site of the fire.
I believe it was one of my colleagues that went back and told the passengers further back not to come forward and again he was praised for this by the crew.
I'm not sure who initially made the call "fire, fire, fire" but I would say that whoever did it made the correct decision. The SEP training that I received taught us in that the first instance, the best thing to do is to make the crew that are around you aware of the fire and the fastest way to do this is to shout fire. That way someone else who is near an interphone can inform the flight deck and someone else can bring the necessary fire fighting equipment if it is not immediately to hand at the site of the fire.
I believe it was one of my colleagues that went back and told the passengers further back not to come forward and again he was praised for this by the crew.
OK Mr trained cabin crew Potential. try this scenario.
Your mates runs in and shouts fire - panic ensues and a crush develops at the door as the passengers rush to get away. In the crush 8 people are killed. The subsequent investigation discovers that the cause of the smoke was an overheating fan bearing which had already been shut down as part of the flight deck crew's reaction to the situation. There never was a fire - only smoke.
Who is going to thank your friend then?
Your mates runs in and shouts fire - panic ensues and a crush develops at the door as the passengers rush to get away. In the crush 8 people are killed. The subsequent investigation discovers that the cause of the smoke was an overheating fan bearing which had already been shut down as part of the flight deck crew's reaction to the situation. There never was a fire - only smoke.
Who is going to thank your friend then?