Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions
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Bronx - i would add two caveats to my previous post.
(1)any letter from ryanair management can contain elements of complete untruth and they have previous form in firing people to scare the pilots.
(2)there is no indication that any disciplinary process was followed here.
For those pilots who want sit on the fence,envisage this.What is stopping ryanair from completely tearing apart your terms and conditions.I believe it is the threat of union recognition.If there is a recognition vote and it is not carried,there is then a 3 year ban on union recognition activity.in those 3 years,you will be raped beyond recognition.
(1)any letter from ryanair management can contain elements of complete untruth and they have previous form in firing people to scare the pilots.
(2)there is no indication that any disciplinary process was followed here.
For those pilots who want sit on the fence,envisage this.What is stopping ryanair from completely tearing apart your terms and conditions.I believe it is the threat of union recognition.If there is a recognition vote and it is not carried,there is then a 3 year ban on union recognition activity.in those 3 years,you will be raped beyond recognition.
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Wake up call.
If the infraction was done during flight, I hope the rat bastard who did Judas act against the captain was rewarded by both the company and appropriately recognized by his/her peers. These types of individuals need to realize that there is no room for acts of this type.
Another rat who wants to be a hero will do the same thing. You got to treat these pests with pesticide... and now!
As for contracted labor organizations such as BALPA, IALPA, ALPA... etc. their motivations are their financial positions first.
Start an inhouse union or association... better control on finances and interests.
Either way... good luck.
Another rat who wants to be a hero will do the same thing. You got to treat these pests with pesticide... and now!
As for contracted labor organizations such as BALPA, IALPA, ALPA... etc. their motivations are their financial positions first.
Start an inhouse union or association... better control on finances and interests.
Either way... good luck.
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U.K. pilots are preparing for a recognition vote.
What percentage of the total pilot group is made up by "UK Pilots"?
What percentage of the pilot group have to vote in favour of being represented by a union before Ryanair have to pay attention?
Regards,
DFC
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On the nail, Norman Stanley Fletcher, ... there are none so blind as those who will not see !
And Aldente, also bang on, what we are witnessing is a bald management scare tactic. I have seen exactly the same used in another major UK industry where morals and public interest issues have very little place.
Right down to public announcements that "So and so was sacked today for gross misconduct". That leaves the sheep nervous wondering what the hell happened and each with their own idea of how they should each reel in their own neck to make sure the same doesn't happen to them.
What we are continually witnessing in the UK at least is the wholesale abuse of the words of disciplinary procedures, and of phrases migrated from other legal scenarios e.g. gross negligence in Third Party Liability parlance migrated to gross misconduct in Employment Law scenarios. There never was a satisfactory definition of these phrases and whether or not they applied remained something to be discovered under serious litigation. We have "smart" company lawyers to thank for the fact that these are now the first words we find up front, and no longer those reluctantly concluded after lengthy investigation.
Most reasonable people would assume that an accusation of gross misconduct meant that you had done something hellish. The company management would respond "Yes indeed". But in fact all it now takes is a stated disagreement with a point well landed by the employee on an intransigent or even bullying manager, or the obscenity of a disgustingly mercenary Ryanair manager prepared to stick two fingers up an employee's backside in order to eject them from the premises over some sham issue (such as the reason here).
Misconduct is a word you rarely see thesedays without the gross prefix. It would be too benign for any management action worth reporting otherwise, wouldn't it? Company lawyers have hijacked the phrase "gross misconduct" as one of their main tools to leverage immediate dismissal with basically no questions asked other than "Did you do that?" - "Yes?" - "Well then you are found guilty of gross misconduct in the workplace and are therefore dismissed". They then leave it to the smashed down employee to dare to get up off the floor and litigate. In actual fact, as I said before, I reckon it would be dead easy for this captain to litigate and take Ryanair for a few hundred thou too, but will he? If the employee doesn't have the stomach for months of it (like most Ryanair employees) then, as Ryanair are surely betting, Ryanair will get away with it. No-one can do anything about this one except the captain himself. I feel for him.
So, if we aren't all going to become active union members (I am but you lot won't be, will you?) I guess we all just pity the guy, because I don't see any signs on PPRuNe, that indicate other than that any given group of today's airline pilots, much like any other generally well-paid group e.g. city traders, are a supremely selfish bunch with few of their peers' let alone the public's interests truly at heart.
If they start beating you remaining compliant ones with plastic tubes filled with concrete, will you do any different? I shan't hold my breath.
And Aldente, also bang on, what we are witnessing is a bald management scare tactic. I have seen exactly the same used in another major UK industry where morals and public interest issues have very little place.
Right down to public announcements that "So and so was sacked today for gross misconduct". That leaves the sheep nervous wondering what the hell happened and each with their own idea of how they should each reel in their own neck to make sure the same doesn't happen to them.
What we are continually witnessing in the UK at least is the wholesale abuse of the words of disciplinary procedures, and of phrases migrated from other legal scenarios e.g. gross negligence in Third Party Liability parlance migrated to gross misconduct in Employment Law scenarios. There never was a satisfactory definition of these phrases and whether or not they applied remained something to be discovered under serious litigation. We have "smart" company lawyers to thank for the fact that these are now the first words we find up front, and no longer those reluctantly concluded after lengthy investigation.
Most reasonable people would assume that an accusation of gross misconduct meant that you had done something hellish. The company management would respond "Yes indeed". But in fact all it now takes is a stated disagreement with a point well landed by the employee on an intransigent or even bullying manager, or the obscenity of a disgustingly mercenary Ryanair manager prepared to stick two fingers up an employee's backside in order to eject them from the premises over some sham issue (such as the reason here).
Misconduct is a word you rarely see thesedays without the gross prefix. It would be too benign for any management action worth reporting otherwise, wouldn't it? Company lawyers have hijacked the phrase "gross misconduct" as one of their main tools to leverage immediate dismissal with basically no questions asked other than "Did you do that?" - "Yes?" - "Well then you are found guilty of gross misconduct in the workplace and are therefore dismissed". They then leave it to the smashed down employee to dare to get up off the floor and litigate. In actual fact, as I said before, I reckon it would be dead easy for this captain to litigate and take Ryanair for a few hundred thou too, but will he? If the employee doesn't have the stomach for months of it (like most Ryanair employees) then, as Ryanair are surely betting, Ryanair will get away with it. No-one can do anything about this one except the captain himself. I feel for him.
So, if we aren't all going to become active union members (I am but you lot won't be, will you?) I guess we all just pity the guy, because I don't see any signs on PPRuNe, that indicate other than that any given group of today's airline pilots, much like any other generally well-paid group e.g. city traders, are a supremely selfish bunch with few of their peers' let alone the public's interests truly at heart.
If they start beating you remaining compliant ones with plastic tubes filled with concrete, will you do any different? I shan't hold my breath.
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Excellent analyse altogethernow.
I would just add one thing, no union would be fair enough to act for this fired guy.
In France we have a guy even worse than MOL, his name is M*** R*******, he does not care about work legislation and fired people to "encourager les autres".
No union put up against him, although the cases were quite simple to defend, and the pilots were part of that Union called SNPL.
no pilots helped the guys who in the end were reinstituated by the tribunal.
The only thing BALPA can do to prouve its willingness to protect FR pilots is to defend this pilot using everything in its capacity, including strike by all UK airline if as you all say what happen to FR will affect all UK airlines.
Than probably they will win a ballot.
Leave names out of it.
I would just add one thing, no union would be fair enough to act for this fired guy.
In France we have a guy even worse than MOL, his name is M*** R*******, he does not care about work legislation and fired people to "encourager les autres".
No union put up against him, although the cases were quite simple to defend, and the pilots were part of that Union called SNPL.
no pilots helped the guys who in the end were reinstituated by the tribunal.
The only thing BALPA can do to prouve its willingness to protect FR pilots is to defend this pilot using everything in its capacity, including strike by all UK airline if as you all say what happen to FR will affect all UK airlines.
Than probably they will win a ballot.
Leave names out of it.
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It really does seem a declaration of war by RYR. Surely this case is superb opportunity for any association wishing to represent a group of employees to offer free help and show its mettle. If none do then they demostrate something else and it is surely not going to attract new recruits.
However, back to the case in point. It is written by RYR that the gross misconduct had a potentail -ve Flight safety consequence. In any court of appeal, should the employee choose that rotue, they would have to demonstrate this charge and how it would have said effect. Thye can't just make up the rules off the cuff. They can try, but if opposed then they have to justify their actions. Does anyone, including Leo H.C. have any idea what criterea they could possible use to justify this claim to an independant tribunal? This is legal territory. There has been much comment about RYR doing what it wants; and this pilot brought it upon himself etc. etc. That's not the point. If they acted outside their own written disciplinary code, and EU labour law, they have to stand up and justify it.
Interestingly, P.B. has put his own name to the action. He said that "in his opinion......." This would suggest it did not come from Dublin; or is he being hung out to dry? Any inside knowledge.
One thing is certain; if this was on the trains/busses/freight lorries they would stop running the next day; at least out of the station of this employee.
However, back to the case in point. It is written by RYR that the gross misconduct had a potentail -ve Flight safety consequence. In any court of appeal, should the employee choose that rotue, they would have to demonstrate this charge and how it would have said effect. Thye can't just make up the rules off the cuff. They can try, but if opposed then they have to justify their actions. Does anyone, including Leo H.C. have any idea what criterea they could possible use to justify this claim to an independant tribunal? This is legal territory. There has been much comment about RYR doing what it wants; and this pilot brought it upon himself etc. etc. That's not the point. If they acted outside their own written disciplinary code, and EU labour law, they have to stand up and justify it.
Interestingly, P.B. has put his own name to the action. He said that "in his opinion......." This would suggest it did not come from Dublin; or is he being hung out to dry? Any inside knowledge.
One thing is certain; if this was on the trains/busses/freight lorries they would stop running the next day; at least out of the station of this employee.
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The airline evryone loves to hate.
Apparently it was cabin crew who reported this guy. Noone wants to see anyone sacked. However I must say I flew with a (very) old school captain a while ago who was so busy shoving his union opinions down my throat that he did infact create a very bad atmosphere and was clearly not concentrating on the very important job he was being paid to do. But obviously, this guy shouldn't have been sacked (and it wasn't him btw!)
I've heard some opinions on my post that it's clearly not possible for me to be a real ryanair pilot as I have a tendancy to (god forbid) enjoy my job, and that it's "obviously my first job and (bless me) I'm sooooo naive." Well this isn't my first ailine job. 2 x charter airlines, 1 x longhaul carrier and a coorporate operator. And......I really don't mind Ryanair. It's not perfect. It could be alot better but it could be alot worse too. I live in the real world though and if I'd wanted to live the life of a millionaire playboy then I wouldn't have become a pilot. I'd've got a job in the city and worked all the hours god sends in a godforsaken office. So instead I chose to enjoy my life and do something I loved and be fairly paid for it.
This is not a good time for balpa. We have no real bargaining power as there's no other jobs on offer!! By the time they've got in and Ryanair have
us over because of it, it'll take about 10 years to scrape back what we already had.
Anyway these posts talk about divide and conquer too.......other airlines are guilty of that too. BA have old and new contract. The new guys will never make anywhere near as much as their collegues in the left hand seat. Balpa protects the old boys and their final salary pensions. So think what you all like. But remember, the golden age of aviation ended about a decade ago.........for everyone. Just as well really or else none of us could even afford to go on holiday with our tickets funding the wallets of overpaid captains and their 3 ex wives.
I've heard some opinions on my post that it's clearly not possible for me to be a real ryanair pilot as I have a tendancy to (god forbid) enjoy my job, and that it's "obviously my first job and (bless me) I'm sooooo naive." Well this isn't my first ailine job. 2 x charter airlines, 1 x longhaul carrier and a coorporate operator. And......I really don't mind Ryanair. It's not perfect. It could be alot better but it could be alot worse too. I live in the real world though and if I'd wanted to live the life of a millionaire playboy then I wouldn't have become a pilot. I'd've got a job in the city and worked all the hours god sends in a godforsaken office. So instead I chose to enjoy my life and do something I loved and be fairly paid for it.
This is not a good time for balpa. We have no real bargaining power as there's no other jobs on offer!! By the time they've got in and Ryanair have
us over because of it, it'll take about 10 years to scrape back what we already had. Anyway these posts talk about divide and conquer too.......other airlines are guilty of that too. BA have old and new contract. The new guys will never make anywhere near as much as their collegues in the left hand seat. Balpa protects the old boys and their final salary pensions. So think what you all like. But remember, the golden age of aviation ended about a decade ago.........for everyone. Just as well really or else none of us could even afford to go on holiday with our tickets funding the wallets of overpaid captains and their 3 ex wives.
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sorry can't resist it. The very fact that I have enough time to sit here like you and post is because of unions. Unions fought for decent working hours and holidays not your boss or all the naive we can do it without a union idiots.Yes they may get it wrong every now and then but they also have to put up with half educated half wits who think they know best.
The facts speak for themselves in every industry. Unionised work places usually have better terms and conditions.
Stand up and be counted for christs sake.
The facts speak for themselves in every industry. Unionised work places usually have better terms and conditions.
Stand up and be counted for christs sake.
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MrsRyan - I am challenging your claim of employment. I reckon you are exaggerating. Five jobs and you are a Co-pilot? Don't add up sunshine.
I don't mind my job either but I hate the way I am treated so I am trying to help change things.
You speak the familiar rhetoric of someone who wants it done for them. Get on side please.
I don't mind my job either but I hate the way I am treated so I am trying to help change things.
You speak the familiar rhetoric of someone who wants it done for them. Get on side please.
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Unionised work places usually have better terms and conditions
I simply reiterate, would someone from BALPA please just spell out definitively the benefits we can expect from recognition?
Not wishy washy "improvements": be specific.
Publish the mainfesto.
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Yes, do .....
And after that maybe someone from one of the Ryanair ERC's can outline "definitively" the benefits they have achieved recently ?
Such as the "improvements" to the annual leave system for instance .....
And after that maybe someone from one of the Ryanair ERC's can outline "definitively" the benefits they have achieved recently ?
Such as the "improvements" to the annual leave system for instance .....
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Oh dear, there's another one that wants it on a plate 
If you associate, or if you unonise, mostly you'll be it
Scarey eh?
Actually, watching you RYR peeps coming out of the whitewashed side streets into the sun reminds me of an old spaghetti western where the villagers expect to employ the passing gunslingers who will naturally see off the baddies
There's slightly more local commitment required methinks, some senior townsfolk will need to learn to lead again, and plan, and some nice peeps will inevitably get hurt ... now where's your stomach for that?
If you associate, or if you unonise, mostly you'll be it
Scarey eh?Actually, watching you RYR peeps coming out of the whitewashed side streets into the sun reminds me of an old spaghetti western where the villagers expect to employ the passing gunslingers who will naturally see off the baddies
There's slightly more local commitment required methinks, some senior townsfolk will need to learn to lead again, and plan, and some nice peeps will inevitably get hurt ... now where's your stomach for that?
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Folks it's actually quite simple. You unite, stand together and stand up for your rights as real professionals and MOL can't do anything.
He's not exactly going to find another few hundred pilots to fly his aircraft and he ain't going to be able to take the financial pain from a fight with a union.
He's not exactly going to find another few hundred pilots to fly his aircraft and he ain't going to be able to take the financial pain from a fight with a union.
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He's not exactly going to find another few hundred pilots to fly his aircraft and he ain't going to be able to take the financial pain from a fight with a union.
The company has the upper hand, fact.
Companies always have the upper hand, fact.
Companies will continue to have the upper hand, fact.
I can only LOL at some of the nonsense postings here to the contrary.
A previous poster was right, BALPA looks after the older guys at BA, the younger ones are left to fend for themselves....and have the less favorable terms to prove it.
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Balpa protects the old boys and their final salary pensions
I don't think you get it. Your employers are trying to legitimise tearing up someone's contract because they expressed support of union membership in the workplace. And yet still you peddle bull
excuses as to why BALPA won't help you. I'd say it's your funeral, but the problem is you are dragging the rest of us down with you.
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A previous poster was right, BALPA looks after the older guys at BA, the younger ones are left to fend for themselves....and have the less favorable terms to prove it.
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The memos i have seen over the last week from management have been disturbing.The captain fired was used as a scapegoat and only ryanair pilots in the uk got the memo.So obviously nothing to do with safety as all ryanair pilots would have recieved the memo if that was the case.The memo was full of lies - it was about balpa not safety.
UK Base freeze again bolix.Not recession etc etc,but balpa.
Respect is needed between the pilots and management.I guarantee that the guys forced out of DUB and SNN due cuts will be told - 'we will rebase you in alicante but on 10% less,if you dont like that F off'.That is fundamentally wrong and this will continue into the future.
Respect is needed.The moral is low,and i am beginning to hate the 'them and us' attitude.Everybody knows now that the recent town hall meetings also turned out to be a bull**** fest.
Just getting fed up with the propaganda and constant bull****ting.Tedious
UK Base freeze again bolix.Not recession etc etc,but balpa.
Respect is needed between the pilots and management.I guarantee that the guys forced out of DUB and SNN due cuts will be told - 'we will rebase you in alicante but on 10% less,if you dont like that F off'.That is fundamentally wrong and this will continue into the future.
Respect is needed.The moral is low,and i am beginning to hate the 'them and us' attitude.Everybody knows now that the recent town hall meetings also turned out to be a bull**** fest.
Just getting fed up with the propaganda and constant bull****ting.Tedious
deja vu all over again
I have no dog in the fight but the dumping on Ryanair pilots sound a lot like the way the ALPA airline pilots used to dump all over Southwest pilots.
It was only 10 years ago when the American pilot rag was full of very similar posts describing Southwest pilots as spine less scabs etc etc.
( Totally ignoring Southwest pilots were unionized)
Meanwhile Southwest stuck to making money, something no a single ALPA Airline managed to do in the last decade, and strangely enough their pilots are now the best paid 737 jocks in the patch and they continue to grow.
Ryanair makes money, very few others do. They offer a package that people show up for. Punters love them and the safety record does not scare anyone away. What you expect them do , offer more than they need to!!!
If the deal is that bad pilots will leave and the offer gets better. Pilots are not some mythical Skygods, they are an expense to be minimized, like everything else in a consumer driven company that wants to make a profit and expand.
I have no inside on BALPA but the unions I do know off always protect the seniors on the inside and sell the non voting new guys short. Don't think so, check out the new hire pay at Air Canada. That was ACPA's work.
Good luck to all.
20driver -
It was only 10 years ago when the American pilot rag was full of very similar posts describing Southwest pilots as spine less scabs etc etc.
( Totally ignoring Southwest pilots were unionized)
Meanwhile Southwest stuck to making money, something no a single ALPA Airline managed to do in the last decade, and strangely enough their pilots are now the best paid 737 jocks in the patch and they continue to grow.
Ryanair makes money, very few others do. They offer a package that people show up for. Punters love them and the safety record does not scare anyone away. What you expect them do , offer more than they need to!!!
If the deal is that bad pilots will leave and the offer gets better. Pilots are not some mythical Skygods, they are an expense to be minimized, like everything else in a consumer driven company that wants to make a profit and expand.
I have no inside on BALPA but the unions I do know off always protect the seniors on the inside and sell the non voting new guys short. Don't think so, check out the new hire pay at Air Canada. That was ACPA's work.
Good luck to all.
20driver -
