Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions
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And he could have fooled me too!!
For a completely different contrast, see a pilot who is willing to protect his rights and entitlements and who has again taken Ryanair to court (video link): http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0622/6ne...67028,null,230
For a completely different contrast, see a pilot who is willing to protect his rights and entitlements and who has again taken Ryanair to court (video link): http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0622/6ne...67028,null,230
Whilst i very much agree with dignity and respect....
People who travel with Ryanair are, to my mind, rather like those who buy counterfeit goods - they encourage sweat shop labour.
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There is a great deal of rhetoric being bandied around, and a not insignificant amount of hubris. The sanctification of unnamed pilots who are " willing to protect his rights and entitlements" by ventilating their sacking / dismissal in front of a Judge doesn't reflect the reality of their situations:no job, probably no income, no reference and redundancies tumbling form even the legacy carriers. Isolated from their former colleagues and probably left to fund the fight through Courts themselves.
Solicitors and barristers taking £175 + VAT for an hour's work soon sees the legal bills build up: costs at Tribunal, in England and Wales, are not normally awarded hence the award will be reduced by the cost of bringing the action which could take 2 years+ to see out.
In the meantime, a small group of very enthusiastic individuals are clamouring for union recognition with little regard for the current economic climate. They singularly fail to recognise that a commercial decision taken by Ryanair management ( however distasteful they may find it) to close a base in the UK is not illegal in any way nor could any union prevent it.
Ryanair can simply reorganise their route structure using aircraft based in Europe to fly W patterns in and out of the former UK bases, maintaining the routes but without the perceived problem of union oversight.
As to voting for something without knowing the manifesto, that surely is nothing more than downright folly: the management at FR have made it clear what their response to recognition will be. It is not, in my opinion, unreasonable to ask what lines the manifesto the protagonists propose.
If I, and many others, are to lose our 5/4 roster, a substantial amount of money, live in the shadow of having our jobs shipped across the Channel and to pay BALPA 1% of our now reduced salaries for the privilege, is it not absolutely appropriate to ask how they propose to restore the status quo, or improve it and to ask how long this will take?
Ryanair pilots represent something of a cash cow for BALPA: 2200 wallets and growing by 400+ per year, that's a substantial income stream for New Road.
So, on the one hand the pilots are all subjected to a loss of income and loss of lifestyle, yet on the other BALPA sees it's income rise.
Finally, the legal protection offered by BALPA membership at 1% per annum can be acquired commercially for around £15 per month with, unlike BALPA, a guarantee that it will be there when you need it.
And BEagle, do calm down, flying a shiny new 737NG for a shedload of money on a 5/4 roster with wrap round leave days ( take 5 days leave, get 13 days off - oh and we get paid for being on leave) is hardly sweat shop labour.
Solicitors and barristers taking £175 + VAT for an hour's work soon sees the legal bills build up: costs at Tribunal, in England and Wales, are not normally awarded hence the award will be reduced by the cost of bringing the action which could take 2 years+ to see out.
In the meantime, a small group of very enthusiastic individuals are clamouring for union recognition with little regard for the current economic climate. They singularly fail to recognise that a commercial decision taken by Ryanair management ( however distasteful they may find it) to close a base in the UK is not illegal in any way nor could any union prevent it.
Ryanair can simply reorganise their route structure using aircraft based in Europe to fly W patterns in and out of the former UK bases, maintaining the routes but without the perceived problem of union oversight.
As to voting for something without knowing the manifesto, that surely is nothing more than downright folly: the management at FR have made it clear what their response to recognition will be. It is not, in my opinion, unreasonable to ask what lines the manifesto the protagonists propose.
If I, and many others, are to lose our 5/4 roster, a substantial amount of money, live in the shadow of having our jobs shipped across the Channel and to pay BALPA 1% of our now reduced salaries for the privilege, is it not absolutely appropriate to ask how they propose to restore the status quo, or improve it and to ask how long this will take?
Ryanair pilots represent something of a cash cow for BALPA: 2200 wallets and growing by 400+ per year, that's a substantial income stream for New Road.
So, on the one hand the pilots are all subjected to a loss of income and loss of lifestyle, yet on the other BALPA sees it's income rise.
Finally, the legal protection offered by BALPA membership at 1% per annum can be acquired commercially for around £15 per month with, unlike BALPA, a guarantee that it will be there when you need it.
And BEagle, do calm down, flying a shiny new 737NG for a shedload of money on a 5/4 roster with wrap round leave days ( take 5 days leave, get 13 days off - oh and we get paid for being on leave) is hardly sweat shop labour.
Last edited by The Real Slim Shady; 22nd Jun 2009 at 20:58. Reason: Addition of comment to BEagle
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Rather too simplistic Beagle, ... methinks you know very little of what you speak ... did you ever actually fly Ryanair?
The passengers are not mollycoddled, 'tis true; but buyers of counterfeit services? I think not. The A to B part works tremendously well. It's just the barsteward managers who need their wings clipped.
The passengers are not mollycoddled, 'tis true; but buyers of counterfeit services? I think not. The A to B part works tremendously well. It's just the barsteward managers who need their wings clipped.
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BEagle
Hmmm...next time you buy the cheapest stuff in a shop you will be encouraging sweat shop labor...make sure that you but that most expensive one with a certificate of being original!
On the other hand, AZ was not lacking Unions, at the last count there was 3 Pilots Unions...which could not even agree of what was best for their members. Here is the one million dollar question...does the Union know what is best for the members during a recession? Historically Unions have been lagging behind...this without taking anything from the great job that Union did in the past.
People who travel with Ryanair are, to my mind, rather like those who buy counterfeit goods - they encourage sweat shop labour.
On the other hand, AZ was not lacking Unions, at the last count there was 3 Pilots Unions...which could not even agree of what was best for their members. Here is the one million dollar question...does the Union know what is best for the members during a recession? Historically Unions have been lagging behind...this without taking anything from the great job that Union did in the past.
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Well put Slim.
The choice as I see it is, Keep a 5 on 4 off roster, almost two months a year leave, and over £90,000 a year.
Or
Dignity and Respect ? Maybe no job and no money, or if we are lucky 5 on 2 off, crap leave and probably a big pay cut.
Let me think for a minute!
The choice as I see it is, Keep a 5 on 4 off roster, almost two months a year leave, and over £90,000 a year.
Or
Dignity and Respect ? Maybe no job and no money, or if we are lucky 5 on 2 off, crap leave and probably a big pay cut.
Let me think for a minute!
did you ever actually fly Ryanair?
And that was before it was dumbed down to its present dismal standard.
Anyway, I don't wish to divert this thread. If employees wish to stand up for their rights under the bullying management style of their employer, then collective bargaining through union membership may be the only way. Whether that employer is an airline manager, a biscuit manufacturer or whatever.
Hmmm...next time you buy the cheapest stuff in a shop you will be encouraging sweat shop labor
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I don't think unions are themselves a good or bad idea, its the interface with the company that can bring about a better working relationship and maybe offer other options.
Unions don't run airlines, and never will because most pilots are far too selfish - pilots almost always vote for what will benefit them rather than voting for the moral right.
Unions in airlines can work and can help relations. I worked for a major UK airline where the relationship between company and pilots had got so bad we were literally on the verge of a strike. We came back from that and these days the company and union try and work together. We recently needed to make 150 or so pilots redundant. Well, in the end all of those pilots kept their jobs. I am not saying these problems were averted only because of union recognition, but it certainly helped.
Union recognition and a successful airline are not mutually exclusive and usually it is the opposite.
Unions don't run airlines, and never will because most pilots are far too selfish - pilots almost always vote for what will benefit them rather than voting for the moral right.
Unions in airlines can work and can help relations. I worked for a major UK airline where the relationship between company and pilots had got so bad we were literally on the verge of a strike. We came back from that and these days the company and union try and work together. We recently needed to make 150 or so pilots redundant. Well, in the end all of those pilots kept their jobs. I am not saying these problems were averted only because of union recognition, but it certainly helped.
Union recognition and a successful airline are not mutually exclusive and usually it is the opposite.
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My word. We collectively have fallen very, very far.
It's very disappointed at the lack of self respect on show by some posters.
It's very disappointed at the lack of self respect on show by some posters.
Last edited by Barden; 23rd Jun 2009 at 00:20.
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BEagle
Lobbing a grenade into discussions tends, not surprisingly, to have that effect. 
However, merely to redress the balance .....
Perhaps you demand higher standards than me, my old friend. I've flown Ryanair and been entirely content.
The flights arrived on time or early, with one exception beyond Ryanair's control. (The airport had been closed for an hour at my request - for good unavoidable professional reasons - so I was in no position to feel aggrieved about the delayed departure!)
Inflight service was very basic 'no frills' but, considering what the tickets cost, I didn't expect, nor feel entitled to, any frills. The cabin attendants tend to be less 'polished' than (for example) BA but, given BA cabin attendants' famously high earnings, I expect more from them.
Perhaps judging any airline by just one flight is rather unfair?
I've had occasional flights with (for example) both BA and Virgin when, given how little we saw of the cabin attendants after meal service and inflight sales, we might have toasted 'absent friends' - had our glasses not been empty for a couple of hours with little prospect of having them filled.
____________
From a neutral observer's perspective -
I realise it's not possible, but it would be interesting to know which contributors to this discussion actually work for Ryanair.
And whether the vitriolic and abusive comments by some here towards those who dare to disagree accurately reflects the atmosphere in discussions of the topic at work. Personal abuse is no substitute for reasoned argument.
Some contributors seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand the issues - on the curious, and rather arrogant, basis that if they did understand they'd agree.
.
I don't wish to divert this thread
However, merely to redress the balance .....
Perhaps you demand higher standards than me, my old friend. I've flown Ryanair and been entirely content.
The flights arrived on time or early, with one exception beyond Ryanair's control. (The airport had been closed for an hour at my request - for good unavoidable professional reasons - so I was in no position to feel aggrieved about the delayed departure!)
Inflight service was very basic 'no frills' but, considering what the tickets cost, I didn't expect, nor feel entitled to, any frills. The cabin attendants tend to be less 'polished' than (for example) BA but, given BA cabin attendants' famously high earnings, I expect more from them.
Once in 2002 and NEVER again. EVER!!
I've had occasional flights with (for example) both BA and Virgin when, given how little we saw of the cabin attendants after meal service and inflight sales, we might have toasted 'absent friends' - had our glasses not been empty for a couple of hours with little prospect of having them filled.
____________
From a neutral observer's perspective -
I realise it's not possible, but it would be interesting to know which contributors to this discussion actually work for Ryanair.
And whether the vitriolic and abusive comments by some here towards those who dare to disagree accurately reflects the atmosphere in discussions of the topic at work. Personal abuse is no substitute for reasoned argument.
Some contributors seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand the issues - on the curious, and rather arrogant, basis that if they did understand they'd agree.
.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 23rd Jun 2009 at 07:21.
Person Of Interest
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DESPEGUE...you are right...Strike NOW!!!...Ask any rEAL pilot what "one day longer than Frank" means...they will tell you it means their job, their income, their lives as they once knew it, and BTW their family, their sanity and all of their "toys" (boat, fancy cars, summer house, etc)
So long to the pension, retirement, and the long awaited "last flight" with the fire trucks spraying the water over them as they taxi in for the last time...
Yes, young boy...go on strike...have a ball, but please don't try to bring everyone else down with you...not everyone likes to drink "Cool-Aid" as much as you seem to do...
As an aside...where the heck is Charlie Bryan these days???
Oh Yeah, I remember, he lasted "One day longer than "Frank""
So long to the pension, retirement, and the long awaited "last flight" with the fire trucks spraying the water over them as they taxi in for the last time...
Yes, young boy...go on strike...have a ball, but please don't try to bring everyone else down with you...not everyone likes to drink "Cool-Aid" as much as you seem to do...
As an aside...where the heck is Charlie Bryan these days???
Oh Yeah, I remember, he lasted "One day longer than "Frank""
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Slim,
nearly 2 weeks leave for 5 days annual leave plus wraparound days can now only be acheived twice per year now , thanks to our weak and spineless ERC's, who supposedly "negotiate" on our behalf. After that it's the rest of your leave in a one month block as you know.
As for those of you worrying about the threat of 5/2, don't !!! Roughly 4 years ago during the period Feb to end of March , I can clearly recall at least 3 other airlines flying for Ryanair at Stansted (Air Exel being just one) on a wet lease basis due to crews running out of hours , and this on a 5/3 roster !
The company wanted and needed 5/4 remember ?
nearly 2 weeks leave for 5 days annual leave plus wraparound days can now only be acheived twice per year now , thanks to our weak and spineless ERC's, who supposedly "negotiate" on our behalf. After that it's the rest of your leave in a one month block as you know.
As for those of you worrying about the threat of 5/2, don't !!! Roughly 4 years ago during the period Feb to end of March , I can clearly recall at least 3 other airlines flying for Ryanair at Stansted (Air Exel being just one) on a wet lease basis due to crews running out of hours , and this on a 5/3 roster !
The company wanted and needed 5/4 remember ?
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nearly 2 weeks leave for 5 days annual leave plus wraparound days can now only be acheived twice per year now , thanks to our weak and spineless ERC's, who supposedly "negotiate" on our behalf. After that it's the rest of your leave in a one month block as you know.
Last edited by FrequentSLF; 23rd Jun 2009 at 08:39. Reason: Guava Tree pointed out the improper use of the word workers, which has been replaced with professionals. Apology for the mistake
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FrequentSLF what is your role here?
Is it just to to justify anything that supports Ryanair? Your comment above about the manipulation of the leave system is typical. What do you know of the changes to the leave system, including the arbitrary introduction of unpaid leave? (You know what unpaid means, I trust).
I am not interested in hearing from you that you know of seasonal workers, even in developed countries, who go unpaid for more months than pilots. That is just knee-jerk justification, which can extend to justifying anything from intimidation to murder.
Indeed, why are you, a non-pilot, such a regular participant in somebody else's discussion, not as an observer but as a strong partisan of a very obvious position? Occasional comments are one thing. Being a partisian is another.
Is it just to to justify anything that supports Ryanair? Your comment above about the manipulation of the leave system is typical. What do you know of the changes to the leave system, including the arbitrary introduction of unpaid leave? (You know what unpaid means, I trust).
I am not interested in hearing from you that you know of seasonal workers, even in developed countries, who go unpaid for more months than pilots. That is just knee-jerk justification, which can extend to justifying anything from intimidation to murder.
Indeed, why are you, a non-pilot, such a regular participant in somebody else's discussion, not as an observer but as a strong partisan of a very obvious position? Occasional comments are one thing. Being a partisian is another.
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Some contributors seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand the issues - on the curious, and rather arrogant, basis that if they did understand they'd agree.
but it would be interesting to know which contributors to this discussion actually work for Ryanair.
I always knew BLAPA were capable of evil acts of self interest, but encouraging JA to walk the high-wire and then yanking away the net is just cruel. FOR SHAME, BLAPA, for shame.
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encouraging JA to walk the high-wire and then yanking away the net is just cruel. FOR SHAME, BLAPA, for shame
In that case your post would be intentionally misleading, in which case would it be appropriate to say FOR SHAME, LEO, for shame?
Of course, if denigrating BALPA was your real purpose (perish the thought) then you would say something like that, even if it was untrue... or would you?
I look forward to your non-reply.
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The caring camel?
Hello Didimus,
And thank you for your warm and charming message.
It's a shame that you feel compelled to be so unpleasant toward me because, in the final analysis, I think you and I want the same thing for the airline, just by different means. As you and I both know, anyone who can achieve and maintain the requisite standard to keep a place among the Ryanair cockpit corps is a well above average operator, and that of course includes you, but your lack of experience may lend itself to a similar absence of perspective. Something I suggest you consider in the months ahead.
Whatever the reason behind your viciousness, I wish you and our airline well. Were we to know each other in person, I think we'd get on rather better than you might think.
Take care, Didimus, and all the very best to you.
Leo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the grim repa
Tic-Toc,Tic-Toc,Ha Ha Ha!!!!
A PM recently recieved from the camel.What sanctimonious horse****!Not on your nelly buddy!!!!
And thank you for your warm and charming message.
It's a shame that you feel compelled to be so unpleasant toward me because, in the final analysis, I think you and I want the same thing for the airline, just by different means. As you and I both know, anyone who can achieve and maintain the requisite standard to keep a place among the Ryanair cockpit corps is a well above average operator, and that of course includes you, but your lack of experience may lend itself to a similar absence of perspective. Something I suggest you consider in the months ahead.
Whatever the reason behind your viciousness, I wish you and our airline well. Were we to know each other in person, I think we'd get on rather better than you might think.
Take care, Didimus, and all the very best to you.
Leo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the grim repa
Tic-Toc,Tic-Toc,Ha Ha Ha!!!!
A PM recently recieved from the camel.What sanctimonious horse****!Not on your nelly buddy!!!!
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What is this talk of "protecting your rights".
Worker's rights are covered by both the law and in Ireland a constitution that can be picked up and read by anyone.
Everything else is simply down to negotiation and agreement.
I love the comment;
What is wrong with that? Who are you to say that you deserve more than another human being?
If the case is that being a garbage collector is more profitable then flying a B737 then become a garbage collector.
Now that is perhaps the crux of the problem.
Some people think that just because they are a pilot that they are somehow superior to the garbage collector - regardless of age, experience and qualifications.
Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.
Perhaps the garbage collector has the brains to do a job that provides the better income than flying a jet. There is no impediment to you applying for the better paid job also.
Get a reality check - Ask yourself, does the airline exist to provide you with a well paid job? or are you simply someone that the airline employs to do a job so that it can make a profit?
People reading the "vote now, ask what we will do later" should take some time to read the rules. While it is hard to get a union recognised, having that recognition taken away is a much harder thing to acheive.
-----------
Hey Boy,
You are easily fooled. I was a union rep for a number of years. I know exactly what happens when you come along with a complaint and how or if that complaint is pushed and how the outcome is always a compromise between collective objectives ( the greather good) and your personal situation.
Even you as an individual are not going to bang the table very hard with MOL about say water being avaiable in-flight if it will have an adverse effect of your pay negotiations.
The only thing that the Union will 100% back you up on is the basic rights that are laid down in law but you don't need a union to tell you those are your entitlements - you can read it for yourself.
So as I said - Not anti-union. Simply a realist who would never vote for a political party who had no idea of what they were going to do if elected.
Regards,
DFC
Worker's rights are covered by both the law and in Ireland a constitution that can be picked up and read by anyone.
Everything else is simply down to negotiation and agreement.
I love the comment;
something is wrong when Toronto garbage collectors make more than some commercial pilots
If the case is that being a garbage collector is more profitable then flying a B737 then become a garbage collector.
When I joined the profession, pilots were not considered to be "workers"
Some people think that just because they are a pilot that they are somehow superior to the garbage collector - regardless of age, experience and qualifications.
Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.
Perhaps the garbage collector has the brains to do a job that provides the better income than flying a jet. There is no impediment to you applying for the better paid job also.
Get a reality check - Ask yourself, does the airline exist to provide you with a well paid job? or are you simply someone that the airline employs to do a job so that it can make a profit?
People reading the "vote now, ask what we will do later" should take some time to read the rules. While it is hard to get a union recognised, having that recognition taken away is a much harder thing to acheive.
-----------
And he could have fooled me too!!
You are easily fooled. I was a union rep for a number of years. I know exactly what happens when you come along with a complaint and how or if that complaint is pushed and how the outcome is always a compromise between collective objectives ( the greather good) and your personal situation.
Even you as an individual are not going to bang the table very hard with MOL about say water being avaiable in-flight if it will have an adverse effect of your pay negotiations.
The only thing that the Union will 100% back you up on is the basic rights that are laid down in law but you don't need a union to tell you those are your entitlements - you can read it for yourself.
So as I said - Not anti-union. Simply a realist who would never vote for a political party who had no idea of what they were going to do if elected.
Regards,
DFC