Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions
 

A UK based Captain has been dismissed today for promoting union membership with cabin crew. The company accuses him of compromising safety (??)

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is happening here, in the UK, in 2009.

I have taken the liberty to start this thread separately from the other RYR threads, as I believe this requires every pilot's attention, from ANY airline.

The fellow pilot is known within the RYR pilot's community to be exemplary in his job, very experienced and highly regarded. I wish to give him all my support and solidarity here.

The aim for RYR's management is quite simple – instigate fear amongst us! Shame on you Molly. The BALPA campaign is very strong and is gaining great support, the management are now resolving to desperate measures. This is the time to keep a cool head and continue supporting the campaign.

Fellow Ryanair pilots, the time has come to make a difference, to change the system, to liberate ourselves from the bullies. Please join BALPA now, together we will make the difference, together we will face the opposition.

You will later this year be asked to take part in a vote for or against BALPA. I believe this is our last true chance to stop the rot, make no mistake. Remember this vote is confidential, you don't even need to be a member of BALPA.

There is only one bullet left, it's not a magic one, but it's our last bullet!

BALPA - Home

Could you enlighten us as to exactly what charge in the list of "gross misconduct" offences he was found to be guilty of ?
I assume if he is out the door that is what is being intimated, can't imagine they left themselves so wide open as to dismiss him with some vague accusation outside the scope of the company regs, even if the "charge" is :hmm: a little tenous.
Oh dear, and after the`concillatory post directed at Leo I made on the other thread just 10 min ago . . . . . I sense a storm much worse than AF447 suffered brewing. . . . . batten down the hatches.
How horribly unnecessary, predictable, and unfortunately , entirely in character, this whole affair is playing out. :D Uh Ah / := :ugh:

The thing is, pilots are a notoriously easy bunch to divide and conquer. Offer one a few quid more and he'll take it. How many f/o hands went up when they were looking for someone to fill that guys seat.
Also, if rumour has it right, theres 200+ pilots in MO'Ls holding pool of 'aerosexuals' as he called them, chomping at the bit to get in. And in 12m I might be one!
So how come you're rallying the Ryanair troops - from Florida?! Are you flying with FR?
It would take almost every pilot in FR to down tools, or simultaneously join BALPA, to suceed.
And there'll always be turncoats - how will you deal with them?!:hmm:
And if I'd spent 70k-100k on training and was offered a job, I hate to admit it, but yeah, I'd have to take the job I'd have no choice.:sad:

Can't he sue them for that - what he did isn't unconstitutional?
(But it might be in at odds with his contract??)

I personally don't think going after Mugabellew is the solution. Spending those resources to out one only to be replaced by another.

Keep at the support, does everyone want RYR to continue like this?? or do you want change?

inveritas
I know you don't like him, but believe me his predecessors were really a lot less charming.
So, was he sacked for taking sickies ? or what are you on about ?
This is actually very serious, for anyone actually working there & in posssesion of a brain, so please don't reduce it to a personal hate-fest to the detriment of the majority.

SVA did this very thing with a group of ex-Eastern Air Lines pilots a few years ago.
Called 'em all into the office (about forty in number) and they were told, point blank...'any more discussion about any sort of 'union' or 'association' and we will terminate the lot of you, right now.'

All 'union' discussion ceased, forthwith.

Don't care what company you're in...or the country, airline managements today have the upper hand.
The stack of applications in the HR department would, I firmly expect, cover all vacancies.

Think otherwise?
Try it and see.

BALPA?
A BA (and perhaps a few others, BMI, for example) entity, in all respects.
Otherwise, a paper tiger, nothing more, nor less.

All good and well in the good old USA, but not strictly legal in Europe.

The following is a dissemination of the Employments Relations Act 2004 and the Employemnt Act 2008. Taken from the Department for Business Innovation and Skills. (A UK Governernment body).


Trade union membership, activities and related matters

Right to belong to a trade union

Some individuals may wish to belong to a trade union and they enjoy certain protections where they do so.

All employees have the right:-

not to be dismissed, or selected for redundancy, for being a member of an independent trade union (2) or for proposing to become a member; and
not to be dismissed, or selected for redundancy, for failing to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to be or become a trade union member.
In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from belonging to an independent trade union or from seeking to become a member, or to penalise them for so doing;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose of the offer is to induce them not to be, or seek to become, a member; and
not to be subjected to a detriment for failing to accept such an offer.

Right to take part in trade union activities

Individuals have protection relating to their trade union activities.

All employees have the following rights relating to their trade union activities:

not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, for taking part, or proposing to take part, in the activities of an independent trade union at an appropriate time;
not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, because they failed to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to take part in the activities of an independent trade union at an appropriate time.

In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from taking part in trade union activities at an appropriate time, or to penalise them for doing so;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose of the employer is to induce them not to take part in an independent trade union’s activities at an appropriate time; and
not to be subjected to a detriment for failing to accept such an offer.
What are union activities?
The kinds of union activity in which an employee may take part are not set out in law. However, union activities involving an employee acting on behalf of the union, for instance as a shop steward representing a union that is recognised for collective bargaining purposes, would be covered, as would activities connected with the election or appointment of union officials.

Right to make use of union services

All employees have the following rights relating to the use they make of their union’s services:

not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, for making use, or proposing to make use, of the services of an independent trade union at an appropriate time; and
not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, because they failed to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to use the services of an independent trade union at an appropriate time.

In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from using their union’s services at an appropriate time or to penalise them for doing so;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose is to induce them not to make use of an independent trade union’s services at an appropriate time; and
not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer for failing to accept such an offer





Sounds like this Captain needs union representation!

What has happened here is obvious. The Captain was sacked for his union promoting activities (bearing in mind the current tension levels between management and the pilots, this is a very sensitive issue), however to cover themselves (or try to !), the memo seems to suggest that by taking part in activities such as discussing union membership with cabin crew on the flight deck and issuing them with union membership forms at work, this prevented them or distracted them from carrying out their normal duties in full, and as such had an impact on flight safety, hence the "gross misconduct" charge.

It is unlikely to stand up in court at an unfair dismissal hearing, but the damage has been done, the message sent, and Ryanair will take the view (as they always do) that they will do what they like anyway, and even if they lose and have to shell out a few thousand, the wider impact of their actions will have been felt by the pilot workforce. They would simply regard it as money well spent and financially a drop in the ocean.

So if the cabin crew come into the flight deck during flight with hot drinks etc, and we ask them about what they did the previous night or where they went on holiday, this is presumably "distracting them from their duties" and therefore a hazard to flight safety as well ? ........

Pathetic !!!


:ugh:

FOR GOD's SAKE! STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why on Earth do ANY of you put op with this 19th century slavery?! Don't you FR guys have any self-respect?!
One of the most important things in being a professional and safe flight-crew member is having a backbone, it seems that FR pilots are just jellyfish...

I might be wrong but when one is "at work" during duty time one is usually contrated to exclusively do the work of one's employer and is usually excluded from doing work for another body.

Doing work for BALPA (or any other organisation) in work time where such activities were not agreed with the employer would be a breach of contract.

Why did this Captain not realise this and confine such activities to outside work time?

As for the "safety" issue - most airlines (and I expect Ryanair also) have a sterile cockpit requirement when below 10,000 in the last 1,000ft of climb or descent and when moving on the ground. I bet that every pilot could be pulled up on safety grounds under this requirement.

Nothing against the poor Captain involved but people need to put their brain in gear and go about things the right way to get the result they desire.

Regards,

DFC

DFC, thanks for your rather sanctimonious post ....

So have you never spoken to cabin crew about anything other than "work related" topics in the cruise then ?

Bet you're a barrel of laughs to fly with !

I think most people exercising any common sense or sound judgement, can see this exercise for what it really is.

Read my last paragraph again .....





:*

I hope to god enough of you vote for union recognition. Ignore the likes of Leo and his mates who bleat on about how useless BALPA/IALPA are. You'll notice they are all sat fat dumb and selfish in the LHS, enjoying remuneration the vast majority in FR will never achieve. Leo and his well paid like in FR don't want union recognition because, wait for it, it might end up costing them a few pence, during the wailing-and-knashing-of-teeth aftermath/backlash in O'Pikey's office that is surely to take place if you guys actually succeed. Maybe a short term hit on T&Cs. Of course, long term, collective representation results in a more stable working environment and protects the Terms and Conditions in both seats. But why would a select few of the highest paid captains at FR want that? They are all right, Jack. A vocal minority. Sod the rest of you.

The truth from my experience of BALPA so far, working for an orange rival of FR, is that on the whole they are fairly toothless. But that is an irrelevance. The point is, in ezy, BA, etc etc collective representation exists, however imperfect it may be. And that is why the likes of ezy, again far from ideal, remains a stable and reasonable working environment. The only reason for this is collective representation.

Can FR Pilots Strike NOW?
 

despegue - You are aware that unless you are part of a recognised Union, then it is not legal to strike. Hence why the recognition MUST go thorugh. The worst the pilots can do right now is ALL take a sick day together, and ALL work 'TO RULE'.

Be aware that a 'Non-vote' counts as a 'NO' vote.

The vote WILL come this year and there is nothing that can be done.

The Captain in question is a very well regarded person in and out of the work place. This is a person who is a true proffesional and hasa never put a foot out of line, EVER! This person was also very much 'onside' with management.

If they are prepared to get rid of someone who is a near 'Model Employee', then what is there to stop them getting rid of ANYONE.

The first stone has been thrown, and all those people that are worried about loosing their jobs if they stand up and be counted when it comes to an ANONOMOUS VOTE, then just think, the company will shoot anyone in the back at anytime. You have no rights and protections UNLESS YOU VOTE 'YES'.
Regardless of what the outcome will be with a Union, it can no way be any worse then being saked for telling cabin crew that they need legal protection, because sure as you and I are breathing air, if something happens on that aircraft, it will be anyone's fault but the company, and if you don't have a Union's legal protection, guess who will be footing the bill when Ryanair Sue you!

Just a thought..................

If this sorry tale is as cut and dried as it appears to be then the pilot has every chance of winning a court case.

Will BALPA back him?

Talking about union membership would be a work related topic. I talk about all sorts - work related or not.

However, handing out forms on behalf of an organisation is doing the work of that organisation and a totally different thing.

Nothing wrong with talking about issues but as I said while employed by organisation A it is normal to be excluded during work time from doing the work of organisation B.

When you have a union you will see that time off during working hours for union duties are very much laid down in black and white and subject to agreement.

Regards,

DFC

However unfortunate for the chap who got fired, but is not the ideal oppertunity for BALPA to stand up?
If they support him and BALPA helps him to take Ryanair to court it would give out a sign to all RYR pilots; we will help you against MOL....

Quote ::But why would a select few of the highest paid captains at FR want that? They are all right, Jack. A vocal minority. Sod the rest of you.

So please tell me ? As you believe so highly in UNITY, how do you and balpa intend to support him ? I would like to think that you will be one of the first to put your hand in your pocket. or are you all talk and no different to me , Which I admit is look after myself first because i don't expect you to do so.:)

Unbelievable.....I thought the UK and/or Ireland were in the EU?
Everyone in the civilized part of the world had a basic RIGHT to be a member of a union.

In the country I live in, it would be soooooooow unacceptable if any employer behaved in this manner. It would backfire and create such a publicity mess that no company would even try to go there. It does not matter whether you make furniture, sell used cars of fly airplanes for a living.

Could someone explain why FR can get away with this? Or any UK or Irish company for that matter?