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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:13
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Turkish press is reporting that Dutch TV is reporting port engine seperated in flight resulting in loss of control...
Mmm, not corroborated by eyewitess report in post #133

and would be extremely unlikely?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:21
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Who is this Rosenschein fella that Sky have dug up? Does he know anything about aeroplanes ? He is free to quote me from Pprune but he might acknowledge the source of his 'wisdom'.

I wonder how much he gets paid by Sky News for spouting drivel ?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:22
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Looks like it stalled, pax report turbulence just prior to the crash, in the turn onto finals, maybe doing a visual? Not the first time such an accident has happened.
Pitched up then dropped like a stone?
Relatively flat impact?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:23
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Estimated height at which all this happened was 80m (~250')
The accident site is about 2 km from the threshold 18R. As near as I can make it on the approach charts, the aircraft should have been at a little more than 355 feet altitude over there. Threshold elevation is -13 feet, and most roads in this area are a few feet elevated above the fields level. Plausible.

maybe doing a visual?
No way. Not at Schiphol airport. Not when it's busy. Not considering the viz and cloudbase today. Not at 18R, particularly not considering all the noise restrictions. At Schiphol, vectors for the ILS are the norm with intercepts at 2000' (3000' at night even). At the place where the crash took place, he should be firmly established on the ILS. He could not and should not be turning at all over there, other than to maintain the localizer.

The only exception to this is light GA landing VFR at 04/22 which they clearly weren't.

Last edited by BackPacker; 25th Feb 2009 at 12:38.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:26
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Question:
A Saudi 747 roll's down from it's parked positiong to a dip...and the entire cockpit section crumbles...

The 777 Lands on rough terrain at London...hits the approach lights and stays intact...

Does Boeing have different teams who design each aircraft type...and possibly design the structural integrity differently...
I suspect those 3 sections are where the plane is joined together in the assembly process...

Is there some other way of designing the aircraft better?

I feel sad as soon as 1 person dies...
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:29
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Rainbow stop being such a sick batard...so you don't care if people dies...I tell you what...stop even looking into this accident...You see people investigate accidents because people dieing is a bad thing...not for any other reason...peoples lives are the important thing!
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:30
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Initial claims of no deaths look to me like the work of an over zealous effort at damage limitation by Turkish Airlines press office.
No, it's more like an airline waiting for official notification from foreign aviation authorities and not jumping in with wild speculation taken from the press.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:31
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Turkish press is reporting that Dutch TV is reporting port engine seperated in flight resulting in loss of control...
Has to be nonsense - there'd be a smoking crater somewhere and none has been mentioned. Possibly mistranslation of 'lost the port engine'?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:31
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from our planeplotter group we have the following data.

last report

1050 feet

heading 184 degrees

149 knots

4-5 km north of the airfield.

sorry just to qualify. data is from mode-s output.


Geoff
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:37
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Dutch reporter on CNN reporting that passengers view was the plane 'ran out of kerosene'
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:37
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Sky have suggested that the pilots may have been confused by an airport with six runways (as if).

I have occasionally been offered a visual switch from 18R to 18C, but I hardly think ATC would offer, nor any sane jet pilot accept it in this weather...

Metar 250955z 21010kt 4500 Br Bkn007 Ovc008 05/04 Q1027 Tempo 2500
So our friend is a career co-pilot from 74's. All becomes clear.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:39
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Anyone has a URL with the ATC transmissions yet? The Dutch TV let us hear some extracts during their 13h news edition...
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:41
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in the turn onto finals, maybe doing a visual?
With a 700' cloudbase? And in a turn but less than 1nm from final? Unlikely.

Flat impact and reports of 'porpoising' do suggest loss of control. Is it still 'CFIT' if the aircraft was stalled, but still technically flyable? I guess not.

Bridge builder, I don't consider Rainboe's post abusive, and it is welcome that someone else is not prepared to tolerate some of the nonsense spouted by flight-simmers, non-aviation people and evanglicals.

Some people are now in little bits because something went wrong with the field which I work in every day. I want to discuss 'why', with people who might know what they are talking about. If anyone wants to start a huggy-fluffy RIP thread, then clear off and do so and leave the rest of us alone.

pray that the figures does not go up.
I quite hope they do not do down, as that usually means...zombies
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:42
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1050 feet

heading 184 degrees

149 knots

4-5 km north of the airfield.
Which is *exactly* on the ILS 18R. I just don't know if 149 knots is normal at this stage - I don't fly jets.

Anyone has a URL with the ATC transmissions yet? The Dutch TV let us hear some extracts during their 13h news edition...
I heard the extracts too but they were from a ground frequency. Essentially ATC telling all aircraft to hold position and standby due to a major incident. Not surprising, considering that virtually all emergency services were heading for an off-airport location.

What you'll want is the tape from 118.275 (tower west).

Last edited by BackPacker; 25th Feb 2009 at 12:54.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:43
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Slides

The slides on most airliners need to drop a considerable distance before a lanyard is pulled and the they are inflated.

On the 737 this is no different. The slides simply didn't drop far enough.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:45
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Can we change the rules such that there are minimum requirements for posting? A minimum of say 100 posts.
aaaaaaaaa
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:47
  #117 (permalink)  
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get coffee...thats a normal Dutch thing..give people coffee..its just cultural...

Back Packer..sounds like a normal approach into SPL to me (13 years of flying into SPL)
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:47
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http://archive-server.liveatc.net/eh...2009-0900Z.mp3

Last third of the taping 1951 is handed over to tower
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:47
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@Magplug,

I have occasionally been offered a visual switch from 18R to 18C
Are you sure about that? I have been based at Schiphol for over 10 years and have never ever had one of those!!!

They might offer you a switch from 18R to 18C, but it is NEVER a visual switch, and it NEVER happens less than 20nm from touchdown. They ask if you would like 18C instead of 18R, and if you say yes, they vector you for the 18C ILS.

You are in danger of being guilty of the very thing you accuse the Sky News Pilot of.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 12:50
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Slides and Fuel

To become preoccupied that the lack of Fire is an indication of Fuel stavation is surely a blind alley... I can think of any number of incidents with a fuel load that have not resulted in a fire - BY in Girona, Southwest in a Petrol Station somewhere in USA, TNT without LDG Gear to name but three off the top of my head. I'm not a fuel expert but I would have thought that in the case of Fuel Starvation without the much talked about fuel tank inertion system the risk of explosion is much higher as Fuel/Air Vapour mix is far more volatile than fuel in it's liquid form...

To clarify the escape slide deployment issue - on a B737NG aircraft the 4 Door Slides are all the same, they are stored on the door and held to the rest of the fuselage by a girt bar which is attached to the floor when the doors are placed in "automatic" - the action of opening the door in this state pulls the inflatable slide away from its storage container and pack board- if the aircraft were on its Gear away from obstructions the inflatable would unravel and the inflation bottle would be activated by the drop (think of a pin being removed from a hand granade) if this does not happen for whatever reason there is a red tag handle that can be pulled to activate the bottle. Aspirators etc then kick in to assist in the quick inflation of the inflatable.

In this particular case given the distance from ground to door sill I would have thought that fully inflated slides would have hampered evacuation - think of trying to run on a bouncy castle or bungy cord game...Perhaps it is evidence of quick, clear decisive action and professionalism by those crew able to function in the immediate aftermath of the incident...

On inspection of the R1 Door in the photos posted it is clear that the slide remains in it's bussel and the girt bar is intact and hanging from the door indicating a disarming before opening. I think the fact that the red strip is still over the door window indicates nothing - would you really remove it in the heat of an emergency evacuation?

I am not speculating here - just the opposite trying too stop such conversation.

Last edited by Cytherea; 25th Feb 2009 at 13:45.
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