Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
malaysiacadet:
It is FAA policy to use this style of using your callsign on the radio. The reason is to avoid callsigns being confused with headings or flight levels.
So, "XYZ 240" would be spoken as "XYZ Two Forty" to avoid any confusion with Heading Two Four Zero or Flight Level Two Four Zero.
So when you hear an American crew using this style on the radio, they are not being sloppy but actually doing what they have been taught.
Personally I think it is a good idea.
It is FAA policy to use this style of using your callsign on the radio. The reason is to avoid callsigns being confused with headings or flight levels.
So, "XYZ 240" would be spoken as "XYZ Two Forty" to avoid any confusion with Heading Two Four Zero or Flight Level Two Four Zero.
So when you hear an American crew using this style on the radio, they are not being sloppy but actually doing what they have been taught.
Personally I think it is a good idea.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Below Escape Velocity
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So when you hear an American crew using this style on the radio, they are not being sloppy but actually doing what they have been taught.
Altitudes are generally given as: "Two-thousand five-hundred feet" or "Flight Level two-five-zero".
Headings are always "Turn left to three-six-zero"
Squawks can be given as "Squawk twelve-hundred" or "Squawk VFR", but IFR squawks are given as individual digits.
Callsigns are contracted numbers... depending upon the radio strength, they may be given as single digits for clarity until there's a positive ID. Sometimes an aircraft will roger as "Cactus 49", but only after established with the controller.
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The double digit method is only used by air carriers and commuter airlines using FAA approved callsigns, for example "United thirty one, sixty". All other aircraft should use single digits for example "Cessna three one six zero.
See Section 2, 2-4-2 (5)
Section 2. Radio Communications Phraseology and Techniques
Dave
See Section 2, 2-4-2 (5)
Section 2. Radio Communications Phraseology and Techniques
Dave
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once upon a time in the air racing world there was a ban on race numbers ending in zero (30, 40, 50, etc.) because a pylon judge might call a pylon cut on "number 30", and it might be heard as "number 13". (see note)
To avoid this ambiguity the above rule was applied. It sounds to me like ATC communications might be equally vulnerable.
Note: This rule was not in force in the 1930s; Mister Mulligan was race no. 40.
To avoid this ambiguity the above rule was applied. It sounds to me like ATC communications might be equally vulnerable.
Note: This rule was not in force in the 1930s; Mister Mulligan was race no. 40.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dreambuster, where ever did you get this gem:
Airliners have quite regularly ditched. The vast majority have seen the structure successfully absorb the impact and remain intact. People regard the Ethiopian crash ditching as tyhe norm for some reason. It dug a wingtip in causing the crash- the Captain being beaten up whilst trying to ditch being the cause of why it happened. Your statement was quite incorrect.
Couldn't they have at least mentioned the only other successful airline ditching in history?
Lifevests
If 155 passengers had time to put on life vests a percentage may have inflated them when seeing the aircraft was in water.
This would have slowed the evacuation of the aircraft.
This would have slowed the evacuation of the aircraft.
However a number of passengers in the Hudson ditching are seen clutching seat cushions which also slows down ones exit, especially using the over wing doors where use of both arms is an advantage.
Had rescuers not been so close, had the plane broken up or sunk it is highly likely some would have drowned due to inability to stay afloat caused by just the onset of early stages of hypothermia.
So the judgement not to tell passengers or cabin crew to done life vests is a very risky one in my opinion.
Mitigating the decision perhaps the pilot thought that their was a risk of passengers being out of their seats on impact?
Or was he and copilot simply too busy?
Having watched three people fall out of a small boat into very cold water (with life vests) it was shocking to see who quickly they were imobilised and how long it took for boats yards away to pull them aboard.
Mickjoebill
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SoCalif
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Comm Confusion
"Headings are always "Turn left to three-six-zero""
Has nobody else seen the fault with that? I have heard pilots confuse ".. Left (to) Three-sixty" between heading to fly, and doing a circle.
Further, I have never seen a compass or heading indicator with 360 on it: just N or 0. Why shouldn't ATC say, "Turn left to Zero"?
GB
Has nobody else seen the fault with that? I have heard pilots confuse ".. Left (to) Three-sixty" between heading to fly, and doing a circle.
Further, I have never seen a compass or heading indicator with 360 on it: just N or 0. Why shouldn't ATC say, "Turn left to Zero"?
GB
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rainboe,
I bow to your superior knowledge - have you had a bad trip?
Could you please list the jet ditchings which have been successful over the past 50 years?
Could I remind you this is a forum and we can't wait for your next helpful contribution.....
DB
I bow to your superior knowledge - have you had a bad trip?
Could you please list the jet ditchings which have been successful over the past 50 years?
Could I remind you this is a forum and we can't wait for your next helpful contribution.....
DB
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Below Escape Velocity
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True...
Further, I have never seen a compass or heading indicator with 360 on it: just N or 0. Why shouldn't ATC say, "Turn left to Zero"?
While being instructed to become a pilot, what I had known as 0-0-0 had become 3-6-0. I recall asking (knowing there must be a good reason) about it. Don't ever recall getting an answer.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Age: 64
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NTSB report on Flight 1549
US Airways violated Federal migratory bird regulations by hunting geese with an A320 Airbus jetliner, claim anonymous government sources. The pilot of flight 1549, Air Force veteran and avid hunter Chesley B. Sullenberger, tried combining both of his interests by bagging a brace of geese over the wetlands near New York's LaGuardia airport after takeoff, on his way to Charlotte, North Carolina. The imported European $77 million A320 airliner is not certified for either waterfowl or upland bird hunting, so it was not surprising that the aircraft malfunctioned. When he realized that both New York and New Jersey State Game and Fish enforcement officers would soon be approaching, Captain Sullenberger unsuccessfully attempted to hide the plane in the Hudson River. The crew and 150 passengers were chilled and shaken but unhurt. Most were simply grateful to avoid spending the weekend in Charlotte.
National Transportation Safety Board inspectors rushed to the scene, and reportedly found no Duck Stamps on the downed aircraft's fuselage. Captain Sullenberger has not been charged but is being held incommunicado at an undisclosed location. PETA is urging the government to prosecute the pilot for double honkercide and poaching, and the animal rights group is expected to file a civil suit on behalf of the flock. The two victims were undocumented aliens, according to sources close to the investigation, Canada geese who had over-stayed their visas. Their goose gang scandalized their quiet Queens community by squatting in local cemeteries and golf courses, parking on the grass, cooking strange-smelling food and throwing wild parties late into the night. Neighbors say police dogs were called out on several occasions.
Such incidents have triggered a wave of anti-Canada goose sentiment, but at this time revenge or hate crime motives are not suspected in the US Airways bird bashings. Forensic examination of the avian corpses continues, and technicians are analyzing the two cadavers under heat with chestnuts, prunes, and Armagnac. NTSB inspectors have contributed a supply of testing fluid, a 2005 Zind-Humbrecht Riesling from Alsace. We will update this story as entrees details become available.
C2j
US Airways violated Federal migratory bird regulations by hunting geese with an A320 Airbus jetliner, claim anonymous government sources. The pilot of flight 1549, Air Force veteran and avid hunter Chesley B. Sullenberger, tried combining both of his interests by bagging a brace of geese over the wetlands near New York's LaGuardia airport after takeoff, on his way to Charlotte, North Carolina. The imported European $77 million A320 airliner is not certified for either waterfowl or upland bird hunting, so it was not surprising that the aircraft malfunctioned. When he realized that both New York and New Jersey State Game and Fish enforcement officers would soon be approaching, Captain Sullenberger unsuccessfully attempted to hide the plane in the Hudson River. The crew and 150 passengers were chilled and shaken but unhurt. Most were simply grateful to avoid spending the weekend in Charlotte.
National Transportation Safety Board inspectors rushed to the scene, and reportedly found no Duck Stamps on the downed aircraft's fuselage. Captain Sullenberger has not been charged but is being held incommunicado at an undisclosed location. PETA is urging the government to prosecute the pilot for double honkercide and poaching, and the animal rights group is expected to file a civil suit on behalf of the flock. The two victims were undocumented aliens, according to sources close to the investigation, Canada geese who had over-stayed their visas. Their goose gang scandalized their quiet Queens community by squatting in local cemeteries and golf courses, parking on the grass, cooking strange-smelling food and throwing wild parties late into the night. Neighbors say police dogs were called out on several occasions.
Such incidents have triggered a wave of anti-Canada goose sentiment, but at this time revenge or hate crime motives are not suspected in the US Airways bird bashings. Forensic examination of the avian corpses continues, and technicians are analyzing the two cadavers under heat with chestnuts, prunes, and Armagnac. NTSB inspectors have contributed a supply of testing fluid, a 2005 Zind-Humbrecht Riesling from Alsace. We will update this story as entrees details become available.
C2j
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US/EU
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another interview with Sullenberger
A more personal, non-technical interview with Captain Sullenberger and his wife in their home by one of the local news broadcasters, Dan Ashley. Focuses mostly on how this has changed their lives since. Kind of lightweight, but it has its moments.
You can download the Flash video here:
http://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/video...cial-sully.flv
If this link doesn't work, or if you can't directly play a flash video, try the one below and look for the video segment entitled "Face to Face: Dan Ashley and the Sullenbergers."
San Francisco Bay Area Breaking News Video from KGO
You can download the Flash video here:
http://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/video...cial-sully.flv
If this link doesn't work, or if you can't directly play a flash video, try the one below and look for the video segment entitled "Face to Face: Dan Ashley and the Sullenbergers."
San Francisco Bay Area Breaking News Video from KGO
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Far Side
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cubs2jets
Au contrair, monsieur,
this was a cowardly unprovoked suicide attack by an avian terrorist organization called World Integrated League Defending Feathered Or Webfooted Life (W.I.L.D.F.O.W.L).
They are known to exist in pockets in most countries of the world, and they promise their suicide attackers unlimited access to 66 golf courses, cemeteries, or wetlands of their choice in the afterlife.
A spokesman for W.I.L.D.F.O.W.L, who claimed responsibility for the attack, announced that John Honk led the squad, which successfully downed one of the all singing, all dancing, high-tech modern technology marvels, with good old fashioned feather power.
W.I.L.D.F.O.W.L is committed to returning control of the air to those who have owned it for eons and will fight to the last one flying if necessary.
Au contrair, monsieur,
this was a cowardly unprovoked suicide attack by an avian terrorist organization called World Integrated League Defending Feathered Or Webfooted Life (W.I.L.D.F.O.W.L).They are known to exist in pockets in most countries of the world, and they promise their suicide attackers unlimited access to 66 golf courses, cemeteries, or wetlands of their choice in the afterlife.
A spokesman for W.I.L.D.F.O.W.L, who claimed responsibility for the attack, announced that John Honk led the squad, which successfully downed one of the all singing, all dancing, high-tech modern technology marvels, with good old fashioned feather power.
W.I.L.D.F.O.W.L is committed to returning control of the air to those who have owned it for eons and will fight to the last one flying if necessary.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone else wonder why the plane floated so symmetrically for so many minutes when one of the engines was missing from the airframe? I was wondering why that didn't cause the intact engine side to ride lower in the water
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Far Side
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont forget Archimedes principle.
You have to subtract the "weight" of the water displaced by the remaining engine, so that the net effect is probably not that much, and is relatively close to the centre of displacement.
End result, not much roll moment.
You have to subtract the "weight" of the water displaced by the remaining engine, so that the net effect is probably not that much, and is relatively close to the centre of displacement.
End result, not much roll moment.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont forget Archimedes principle.
You have to subtract the "weight" of the water displaced by the remaining engine, so that the net effect is probably not that much, and is relatively close to the centre of displacement.
End result, not much roll moment.
You have to subtract the "weight" of the water displaced by the remaining engine, so that the net effect is probably not that much, and is relatively close to the centre of displacement.
End result, not much roll moment.
Immediately after ditching, the ship remained nearly wings level for most of the evacuation, but slowly rolled toward the #2 engine as odd cavities in the right wing slowly flooded. The left wing was thus elevated above the waterline, and never flooded.
By the time it was towed to the Manhattan side, the roll was 45 degrees or so, and remained so until it was slowly hoisted clear of the water.
Any Comments From Airbus yet?
Some period of time has now passed so I wonder if Airbus has said anything to its other operators about the reason for the frozen engines at or near idle condition.
Damaged engines just don't pick an idle condition to reside by themselves. Something has to command them there and then latch them at that condition.
Damaged engines just don't pick an idle condition to reside by themselves. Something has to command them there and then latch them at that condition.
Damaged engines just don't pick an idle condition to reside by themselves. Something has to command them there and then latch them at that condition.
The compressor blades likely do a decent job of cuisinarting, but the stators get in the way while the passage shrinks 30:1. Remember that air is compressible while solid bits and liquids are not.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In defining the acceleration performance of an engine, the designer looks primarily at a couple curves:
1) the steady-state line - what fuel flow will cause the engine to stabilize at a given speed?
2) the stall or surge line - how much instantaneous increase in fuel can the engine tolerate before the compressor goes non-linear?
He then creates an acceleration fuel schedule that is close to, BUT NOT ABOVE, the stall line. That way, when the pilot calls for acceleration, the control can predictably deliver that acceleration without stalling. Whether a mechanical or electronic control, it makes no difference; the principles are the same.
But what happens when the engine aerodynamics are degraded (FOD, sand erosion, avian attack...)?
First of all, the steady-state line moves UP. More fuel is needed to hold a given RPM. This is the natural result of poorer component efficiency.
And the steady-state and accel schedule lines may not be parallel. The steady-state line may intersect the accel schedule - who knows at what speed? It may be 70%, it may be 35% - the fuel control still is programmed to avoid compressor stall, and that's the limiting speed for the engine in that degraded state.
So the engines (as I see it) WERE NOT at a governed, stabilized idle, even though the gages might have suggested that. They were trapped by their degraded steady-state line intersecting the accel schedule.
1) the steady-state line - what fuel flow will cause the engine to stabilize at a given speed?
2) the stall or surge line - how much instantaneous increase in fuel can the engine tolerate before the compressor goes non-linear?
He then creates an acceleration fuel schedule that is close to, BUT NOT ABOVE, the stall line. That way, when the pilot calls for acceleration, the control can predictably deliver that acceleration without stalling. Whether a mechanical or electronic control, it makes no difference; the principles are the same.
But what happens when the engine aerodynamics are degraded (FOD, sand erosion, avian attack...)?
First of all, the steady-state line moves UP. More fuel is needed to hold a given RPM. This is the natural result of poorer component efficiency.
And the steady-state and accel schedule lines may not be parallel. The steady-state line may intersect the accel schedule - who knows at what speed? It may be 70%, it may be 35% - the fuel control still is programmed to avoid compressor stall, and that's the limiting speed for the engine in that degraded state.
So the engines (as I see it) WERE NOT at a governed, stabilized idle, even though the gages might have suggested that. They were trapped by their degraded steady-state line intersecting the accel schedule.