Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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"One way of looking at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making small regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training," said US Airways Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger. "And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."
Indeed...flying an aircraft is one thing....dealing with an immediate emergency on a level such as Sullys ( with no option to dwell on the moment for a few weeks ! ) is something else. Text books and sims only provide part of the solution...experience ( and a little luck ) is a big player in such an outcome but unfortunately these two variables are not available to everyone.
This time it all worked out for the best.....
Indeed...flying an aircraft is one thing....dealing with an immediate emergency on a level such as Sullys ( with no option to dwell on the moment for a few weeks ! ) is something else. Text books and sims only provide part of the solution...experience ( and a little luck ) is a big player in such an outcome but unfortunately these two variables are not available to everyone.
This time it all worked out for the best.....
Last edited by speedbirdconcorde; 11th Feb 2009 at 05:27. Reason: spelling
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You're assuming that the airplane had no thrust at all. I did wrap the word glide with quotes. All I did was take the available data, right or wrong, and extrapolate it to produce a radius around the 2000 ft ASL point. I make no assumptions regarding, or lack there-of, his options.
Remember, the plane still had some thrust. I used the flightaware data of the actual flight and not from a handbook, for better or for worst. If you have better data pls do post it. One suggestion is to try to figure out the error in the radar data pts; filter/process them. Maybe some of the radar data points are from far away radars and some are from close by. Maybe consider radar beam tilt and angular errors in your calcs. Maybe, use data from one radar only.
I'm happy they ditched in the water. Future flights now know that a proper ditching is possible.
It's too bad that the crew didn't mention, to my knowledge, that it was great that the plane didn't break up, and congratulate the A320 plane, it's designers, and government specs.
Apparently the back door was opened by a hysterical female passenger, in front of the stewardess*, which allowed the quick flooding of the tail.
* The "blonde" one that now refuses to wear her uniform to interviews.
see cbs 60 minutes interviews (5 parts) YouTube - nypdcar1's Channel
Remember, the plane still had some thrust. I used the flightaware data of the actual flight and not from a handbook, for better or for worst. If you have better data pls do post it. One suggestion is to try to figure out the error in the radar data pts; filter/process them. Maybe some of the radar data points are from far away radars and some are from close by. Maybe consider radar beam tilt and angular errors in your calcs. Maybe, use data from one radar only.
I'm happy they ditched in the water. Future flights now know that a proper ditching is possible.
It's too bad that the crew didn't mention, to my knowledge, that it was great that the plane didn't break up, and congratulate the A320 plane, it's designers, and government specs.
Apparently the back door was opened by a hysterical female passenger, in front of the stewardess*, which allowed the quick flooding of the tail.
* The "blonde" one that now refuses to wear her uniform to interviews.
see cbs 60 minutes interviews (5 parts) YouTube - nypdcar1's Channel
misd-agin: .....Airbus supposedly states you can glide 2.5-2.7 n.m. per thousand feet. Boeing gives about 3 n.m. per thousand.
Using that as an example you could go 3.6 n.m.'s, no wind, from the 1200'/194 kts position. Unfortunately the runway's 4.5 nm away.
It's interesting to see if they could have made it, but even if they'd started at the 2000'/202 kts position it's exactly 6 n.m. to RWY 13, which given the glide information provided would be the exact distance required to make the runway......
Using that as an example you could go 3.6 n.m.'s, no wind, from the 1200'/194 kts position. Unfortunately the runway's 4.5 nm away.
It's interesting to see if they could have made it, but even if they'd started at the 2000'/202 kts position it's exactly 6 n.m. to RWY 13, which given the glide information provided would be the exact distance required to make the runway......
I can se an idea of calculating if it would have been theoretically possible to reach an airport, just for 'fun'.
IRL, when all both engines quit you have to make a rather quick desition that you believe will make you stay alive. @ low altitude there´s usually not so many options to choose from, and if you did make the choise and then another option comes visible you would have to have good reason to change the landing spot.
I´d say the crew did a perfect job, and I dont think that Sully wonder if (or should wonder about) he could have reached an airport safe. Remember that 'almost reaching' an airport probably would give a very tragic outcome. Even reaching an airport but not lined up with the runway could be bad.
I fly both fixed wing and helis, I work as a military heli pilot. @ flight school and for annual training a common way of learning the pilot a lesson is to cut the helis engines close enough for a place not perfect but survivable and then there would be a decoy (the perfect field for an autorotation) but that place is just beyond reachable range. If you swallow the bait you find yourself short of altitude over a big forrest or so about 2-300m short of the decoy. Lesson learned is to choose a spot 'good enough' and stick with the plan.
Anyone remember the SAS 'gottröra' MD81 accident/emergeny landing the 27th december 1991 ? Ice on both wing came loose and qiut both eninges at low altitide (about 4000ft if my memory still works). They where IMC and I think cloudbase was between 1000-2000 feet or so.
The captain got some kind of 'incapatity' and didnt do the work 100%, but another off duty MD81 captain rushed forward and helped the crew with the emergency prodedures.
IRL, when all both engines quit you have to make a rather quick desition that you believe will make you stay alive. @ low altitude there´s usually not so many options to choose from, and if you did make the choise and then another option comes visible you would have to have good reason to change the landing spot.
I´d say the crew did a perfect job, and I dont think that Sully wonder if (or should wonder about) he could have reached an airport safe. Remember that 'almost reaching' an airport probably would give a very tragic outcome. Even reaching an airport but not lined up with the runway could be bad.
I fly both fixed wing and helis, I work as a military heli pilot. @ flight school and for annual training a common way of learning the pilot a lesson is to cut the helis engines close enough for a place not perfect but survivable and then there would be a decoy (the perfect field for an autorotation) but that place is just beyond reachable range. If you swallow the bait you find yourself short of altitude over a big forrest or so about 2-300m short of the decoy. Lesson learned is to choose a spot 'good enough' and stick with the plan.
Anyone remember the SAS 'gottröra' MD81 accident/emergeny landing the 27th december 1991 ? Ice on both wing came loose and qiut both eninges at low altitide (about 4000ft if my memory still works). They where IMC and I think cloudbase was between 1000-2000 feet or so.
The captain got some kind of 'incapatity' and didnt do the work 100%, but another off duty MD81 captain rushed forward and helped the crew with the emergency prodedures.
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The captain got some kind of 'incapatity' and didnt do the work 100%, but another off duty MD81 captain rushed forward and helped the crew with the emergency prodedures.
Contributory causes were: The pilots were not trained to identify and eliminate engine surging; ATR-which was unknown within SAS - was activated and increased the engine power without the pilot's knowledge.
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Letterman
Yes, the crew was great on letterman. Skiles was very funny and it comes out that HE HAS MORE FLYING TIME than Sully does.
Again, in my view, the real hero is the aft flight attendant...doreen. 38 years with USAIR/allegeny. IF the back doors had been opened by the passengers, I am sure the outcome would have had at least a dozen drowned in the tail.
Oddly enough, the crew was also on Larry King at the same time due to repeats...I was switching back and forth between the two.
Doreen, on letterman, reminded me of Teri Garr in the good old days.
I truly hope the whole crew does not go back to line flying and is given a nice training gig or full pay forever doing nothing. Sully, if you read this, quit while you are ahead.(this is not meant as anything in a negative way...one only gets so much luck, even with experience and skill)
Again, in my view, the real hero is the aft flight attendant...doreen. 38 years with USAIR/allegeny. IF the back doors had been opened by the passengers, I am sure the outcome would have had at least a dozen drowned in the tail.
Oddly enough, the crew was also on Larry King at the same time due to repeats...I was switching back and forth between the two.
Doreen, on letterman, reminded me of Teri Garr in the good old days.
I truly hope the whole crew does not go back to line flying and is given a nice training gig or full pay forever doing nothing. Sully, if you read this, quit while you are ahead.(this is not meant as anything in a negative way...one only gets so much luck, even with experience and skill)
CRM, C = "cockpit" or "crew (not cabin)"
Look, this is not a criticism, but I'm interested that the cabin crew in the interviews all say they didn't know until they were down that this was to be a "landing on water" (ha, ha). Is this SOP (don't frighten the SLF, who most of them, like me before this, probably think that that's a euphemism for "crash in water")? Or were the guys at the pointy end just too busy?
idle..
Probably depends on different airlines procedures. In our outfit if time is available the process is known as a "planned emergency" and we would try to carry out a some sort of Cabin crew briefing ...I guess a double engine failure at 30 West at Flight Level 380 might just fall into that category.........
However if time is limited ( certainly the case here!) it becomes an "Unplanned Emergency"
All the Cabin Crew really needed to know is that there's going to be some form of hard landing very soon and therefore they and the passengers need to be braced for impact....so all they'll get in that case is a "brace, brace" call.....IMHO in that case ( short time frame) you don't want to mention a landing on water - you want the crew and pax braced for impact, not trying to don lifejackets at the moment of touchdown.
However if time is limited ( certainly the case here!) it becomes an "Unplanned Emergency"
All the Cabin Crew really needed to know is that there's going to be some form of hard landing very soon and therefore they and the passengers need to be braced for impact....so all they'll get in that case is a "brace, brace" call.....IMHO in that case ( short time frame) you don't want to mention a landing on water - you want the crew and pax braced for impact, not trying to don lifejackets at the moment of touchdown.
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Alph2z, the "blonde" flight attendant (as you put it) did not refuse to wear her uniform.
If you watched the programme, she said that she didn't feel ready to wear it yet. Doreen Welsh was the most seriously injured on that aircraft, she, (and the 154 others) has been through a traumatic experience. I for one don't blame her one bit for saying that she doesn't feel ready to wear her uniform yet.
I suppose a comparison can be made to having a car crash. Some people can get straight into another car and drive again. Others have to steel themselves before getting back behind the wheel, some may take a while before they can do it, and there are some who may feel that they can never drive again.
Cut the lady some slack and let her recover in her own time and in her own way.
If you watched the programme, she said that she didn't feel ready to wear it yet. Doreen Welsh was the most seriously injured on that aircraft, she, (and the 154 others) has been through a traumatic experience. I for one don't blame her one bit for saying that she doesn't feel ready to wear her uniform yet.
I suppose a comparison can be made to having a car crash. Some people can get straight into another car and drive again. Others have to steel themselves before getting back behind the wheel, some may take a while before they can do it, and there are some who may feel that they can never drive again.
Cut the lady some slack and let her recover in her own time and in her own way.
Last edited by Super VC-10; 11th Feb 2009 at 12:23. Reason: typo
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If you can't get to it...
It isn't a "resource" if it isn't available, is it? As in, no time to use the cabin crew in any way except to tell them to brace for impact. I am sure the flight crew would have done more if they had more time available but what they did obviously sufficed.
This second-guessing seems to be function of time. Right after the ditching in the river everyone was just amazed and full of admiration. Now, with plenty of time some folks have come up with such good ideas! Of course I would love to have seen them come up with something right then and there, when most people in the general population would have reacted with simple, stunned disbelief if they even noticed that there was some sort of problem at all while there was still time to sort out a solution.
Even many pilots would probably not have come up with such a happy outcome, I bet, first figuring out a ditching and then doing one so well.
If the cabin crew had not been informed it was a ditching, well, looking out the windows probably told them that anyway so that they, too, performed very well.
Really, what is there in this to carp about?
By the way, that Pan Am ditching was prefaced with plenty of time to prepare where this crew had almost no time at all. I don't think you can compare the two except that they were both successful ditchings.
Here's a New York joke for you:
A Jewish mother is at the beach on Coney Island with her five year-old all togged out in his sailor suit. The little boy is playing at the water's edge. Suddenly a huge wave washes the tyke out into deep water, when the desperate mother utters a frantic prayer to God to save her poor child.
In the very next second another huge wave deposits the bedraggled child back on the beach somewhat the worse for wear but alive!
The mother rushes to pick up her child but then stops, looks up and says, "He had a HAT!"
Has anyone asked Captain Sully about their lost luggage yet? If not then they will, they will...
This second-guessing seems to be function of time. Right after the ditching in the river everyone was just amazed and full of admiration. Now, with plenty of time some folks have come up with such good ideas! Of course I would love to have seen them come up with something right then and there, when most people in the general population would have reacted with simple, stunned disbelief if they even noticed that there was some sort of problem at all while there was still time to sort out a solution.
Even many pilots would probably not have come up with such a happy outcome, I bet, first figuring out a ditching and then doing one so well.
If the cabin crew had not been informed it was a ditching, well, looking out the windows probably told them that anyway so that they, too, performed very well.
Really, what is there in this to carp about?
By the way, that Pan Am ditching was prefaced with plenty of time to prepare where this crew had almost no time at all. I don't think you can compare the two except that they were both successful ditchings.
Here's a New York joke for you:
A Jewish mother is at the beach on Coney Island with her five year-old all togged out in his sailor suit. The little boy is playing at the water's edge. Suddenly a huge wave washes the tyke out into deep water, when the desperate mother utters a frantic prayer to God to save her poor child.
In the very next second another huge wave deposits the bedraggled child back on the beach somewhat the worse for wear but alive!
The mother rushes to pick up her child but then stops, looks up and says, "He had a HAT!"
Has anyone asked Captain Sully about their lost luggage yet? If not then they will, they will...
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Just seen a trailer for a Channel 4 (UK) documentary on this,
Thursday 19 February, Channel 4, 22:00
MIRACLE OF THE HUDSON PLANE CRASH
70 MINS
"Minutes into US Airways flight 1549 from New York, a flock of birds strikes the plane, taking out both engines. With no power, the captain must attempt the impossible: to land in the Hudson River."
"Last month Captain Sullenberger and US Airways flight 1549 made history by crash-landing on the Hudson River in New York city. Everyone on board survived. This is their story."
Enjoy ....
Thursday 19 February, Channel 4, 22:00
MIRACLE OF THE HUDSON PLANE CRASH
70 MINS
"Minutes into US Airways flight 1549 from New York, a flock of birds strikes the plane, taking out both engines. With no power, the captain must attempt the impossible: to land in the Hudson River."
"Last month Captain Sullenberger and US Airways flight 1549 made history by crash-landing on the Hudson River in New York city. Everyone on board survived. This is their story."
Enjoy ....
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Has anyone asked Captain Sully about their lost luggage yet? If not then they will, they will...
US Airways passengers hopeful about luggage after Hudson landing | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Headline | National News
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Letterman Show
Not the full video, but some "highlight" clips, about 2 minutes worth, here:
CBS | Late Show with David Letterman :
It's item 1 in the upper right hand corner of the web page. Funny stuff.
CBS | Late Show with David Letterman :
It's item 1 in the upper right hand corner of the web page. Funny stuff.
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Skiles on Charlie Rose said that a senior training pilot at the airline simulated the flight and failed 25 times to reach LaGuardia. No mention at what point along the "glide" they tried to turn back to LaGuardia.
Charlie Rose - A conversation with Jeffrey Skiles Co-pilot US Airways Flight 1549
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Charlie Rose - A conversation with Jeffrey Skiles Co-pilot US Airways Flight 1549
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Ofbslf
I only have one uniform...you have to realize that this lady has been with the airline for 38 years and the most recent merger has a new uniform...she probably has the first one she bought 38 years ago, but it isn't the right one for now.
OH, and here is the new SULLY COCKTAIL...2 shots of gray goose and a splash of water.
OH, and here is the new SULLY COCKTAIL...2 shots of gray goose and a splash of water.
An Interesting Photo
Lots of photos surfacing all over the net mostly of the aircraft from a distance. But here's one of one of the engines.
Not much visible damage for a canada goose, but then again nobody in authority has said that they were large geese have they?
I now understand that the Italian investigating agency has decided that it would be a good time to restart their investigation of the Rome starling ingestion that disabled both similar model engines leading to a forced landing of a Boeing.
So now both accident investigation teams will teardown both accident's engines to determine just what goes wrong in this model engine to leave the fan blades looking so good but resulting in a near total thrust loss nevertheless.
Not much visible damage for a canada goose, but then again nobody in authority has said that they were large geese have they?
I now understand that the Italian investigating agency has decided that it would be a good time to restart their investigation of the Rome starling ingestion that disabled both similar model engines leading to a forced landing of a Boeing.
So now both accident investigation teams will teardown both accident's engines to determine just what goes wrong in this model engine to leave the fan blades looking so good but resulting in a near total thrust loss nevertheless.
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but then again nobody in authority has said that they were large geese have they?
WASHINGTON — Clues from the wreckage from US Airways Flight 1549, which crashed in the Hudson River, are going to the best investigators in the world: the black boxes to the National Transportation Safety Board, the engines to the manufacturer’s experts and a bird feather to a Smithsonian museum.
The National Museum of Natural History in Washington may not leap to mind when both engines on a high-tech plane quit at 3,200 feet. But around the corner from the stuffed African elephant that greets the visiting hordes of schoolchildren, down a back hall from the employee bike rack, a staff of four in the Feather Identification Lab took in samples from 4,600 bird-plane collisions, or bird strikes, last year. Arriving mostly in sealed plastic bags, these included birds’ feet, whole feathers or tiny bits of down, and pulverized bird guts, known as snarge.
The National Museum of Natural History in Washington may not leap to mind when both engines on a high-tech plane quit at 3,200 feet. But around the corner from the stuffed African elephant that greets the visiting hordes of schoolchildren, down a back hall from the employee bike rack, a staff of four in the Feather Identification Lab took in samples from 4,600 bird-plane collisions, or bird strikes, last year. Arriving mostly in sealed plastic bags, these included birds’ feet, whole feathers or tiny bits of down, and pulverized bird guts, known as snarge.
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So now both accident investigation teams will teardown both accident's engines to determine just what goes wrong in this model engine to leave the fan blades looking so good but resulting in a near total thrust loss nevertheless.
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Letterman
I must say I am very impressed with the Letterman interview. He asked a couple of very interesting questions that had been asked in this forum before. Much more about aviation, how the airplane works (thinks like glide ratio, etc.). What does it say about the state of American news journalism if a comedian asks the most interesting questions in a media tour that included Larry King, 60 minutes, etc.?
Sully uttered the words "I's a Fly-by-Wire airplane" on Letterman. Did not hear him say such things on the other shows.
Sully uttered the words "I's a Fly-by-Wire airplane" on Letterman. Did not hear him say such things on the other shows.
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Skiles on Charlie Rose said that a senior training pilot at the airline simulated the flight and failed 25 times to reach LaGuardia. No mention at what point along the "glide" they tried to turn back to LaGuardia.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Four out of five is not good odds. What was the simulated outcome on the 5th?
OK, I know you posed a theoretical question. Now how about a hypothcial answer to the 5th?
OK, I know you posed a theoretical question. Now how about a hypothcial answer to the 5th?