Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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Agree that the rescue part of the C4 programme was interesting, but the flight bit itself was repetitive and superficial. The FO and rest of the crew were nameless and appeared to have little part in the proceedings. Disappointing programme for me anyway.
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I have to say I thought it was well documented and presented, made me very emotional.. although I was hoping it would be a documentary focused on the crew and their testimony, of which there was little to none! aside what has already been repeated many times in all the news bulletins about this incident.. I also want to point out that I agree with another comment from earlier.. they did seem to emphasise the fact that the "crew did not activate the ditch switch" in a negative way, and I do not think that should have been included.
Nagging minor question
Has anyone received an answer as to why the cabin crew and passengers were not informed that they were ditching and so did not have a chance to don life jackets before impact?
Would it have been a good idea for cabin crew (not knowing rescuers were so close) to advise passengers to grab their life vest from under the seat on the way out?
Given a member of crew walked the plane checking for disabled passengers, could/should they have grabbed life vests and distributed them to those on the wing?
Mickjoebill
Would it have been a good idea for cabin crew (not knowing rescuers were so close) to advise passengers to grab their life vest from under the seat on the way out?
Given a member of crew walked the plane checking for disabled passengers, could/should they have grabbed life vests and distributed them to those on the wing?
Mickjoebill
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PanAm 943 Ditching in Pacific
Interesting film of the successful ditching of PanAm 943 in the Pacific Ocean on Oct 16, 1956 after losing two (of four) engines en route HNL-SFO. All passengers and crew, including two infants, rescued by Coast Guard cutter Pontchartrain stationed in the area:
Last edited by Mark in CA; 20th Feb 2009 at 20:07.
I suspect the front end crew were too busy landing the plane. I am sure that Sully lost sleep over that one. He did direct the F/O to distribute life vests from the forward seats to those outside.
GF
GF
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Having just watched the u-tube documentory about the ditching of pan am 943 and also having watched the C4 documentry tonight they could not contrast more in style.
The PAN AM 943 documentry was factual, a little up-beat an congratulatory in places but did not seem to place any spin on the matter.
In contrast the documentry was full of drama, the father & son "Who had to face death as sitting at opposite ends of the plane" blah blah.
I wish we could go back to the old style of reporting - it was way more interesting and factual.
One question that did arise in the 943 video is why if the plane could maintain altitude did it not turn back and land - was this a fuel issue? Sorry for the off the cuff question now going to go see if I can find out.
The PAN AM 943 documentry was factual, a little up-beat an congratulatory in places but did not seem to place any spin on the matter.
In contrast the documentry was full of drama, the father & son "Who had to face death as sitting at opposite ends of the plane" blah blah.
I wish we could go back to the old style of reporting - it was way more interesting and factual.
One question that did arise in the 943 video is why if the plane could maintain altitude did it not turn back and land - was this a fuel issue? Sorry for the off the cuff question now going to go see if I can find out.
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From what I understand the 943 issue was that due to the engine that quit and it's propeller not feathering. Due to the increased drag, they would not have had enough fuel to make landfall. They were near to the Coast Guard vessel, and so it made sense to stay nearby so they could be picked up.
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One question that did arise in the 943 video is why if the plane could maintain altitude did it not turn back and land - was this a fuel issue? Sorry for the off the cuff question now going to go see if I can find out.
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They had had apparently just passed the point of no return, and so were unable to reach a suitable landing strip in either direction
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Life Vests
When the B767 ditched many of the passengers who inflated their life vests while still in their seats were trapped in the aircraft.
In the Hudson incident this was not the case.
If 155 passengers had time to put on life vests a percentage may have inflated them when seeing the aircraft was in water.
This would have slowed the evacuation of the aircraft.
In the Hudson incident this was not the case.
If 155 passengers had time to put on life vests a percentage may have inflated them when seeing the aircraft was in water.
This would have slowed the evacuation of the aircraft.
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hello,
a little off topic here,
I've been listening to the ATC recording of the USAirways A320 incident,
I just want to ask, is it the norm in the US for ATC to read out :
Cactus Fiftheen Fourthy Nine
Instead of:
Cactus One Five Four Niner
Please pardon me for my ignorance, i've only been flying in Malaysia, and the standard RT here is
"Cactus One Five Four Niner"
" Malaysian Seven One One"
"Asian Express Six Two Niner Two"
"Firefly Three Zero Five Zero"
so i really would like to find out.
I am asking because there's a Boeing Plane... Callsign Boeing 37NY .
The pilot said "Boeing Three Seven November Yankee" i was expecting Boeing Thirthy Seven November Yankee
Thank You.
a little off topic here,
I've been listening to the ATC recording of the USAirways A320 incident,
I just want to ask, is it the norm in the US for ATC to read out :
Cactus Fiftheen Fourthy Nine
Instead of:
Cactus One Five Four Niner
Please pardon me for my ignorance, i've only been flying in Malaysia, and the standard RT here is
"Cactus One Five Four Niner"
" Malaysian Seven One One"
"Asian Express Six Two Niner Two"
"Firefly Three Zero Five Zero"
so i really would like to find out.
I am asking because there's a Boeing Plane... Callsign Boeing 37NY .
The pilot said "Boeing Three Seven November Yankee" i was expecting Boeing Thirthy Seven November Yankee
Thank You.
Last edited by malaysiacadet; 20th Feb 2009 at 11:05.
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Thanks for the link super vc10
My intentions were to look it up and got distracted - so you saved me some effort.
I have some questions... but not to divert topic on this thread will take to jet blast.
My intentions were to look it up and got distracted - so you saved me some effort.
I have some questions... but not to divert topic on this thread will take to jet blast.
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Repeated comments about
Whilst the USA is more "publicity" orientated than the UK, I really cannot see the crew being allowed to comment fully until all investigations are complete... probably as per NTSB and Employer rules.
It was a "very early" documentary (1 month post incident), and Pan Am has had over 50 years to get the facts established
Maybe watch the program again 
Ditching procedures are designed from Cruise, with appropriate decisions and briefings. Certainly my airline has no "short notice" FD calls for an unexpected ditching. As stated above, if there had been such a call, no doubt the majority of Pax would have known where their LJ was, and in the event they did find it, would then have inflated it 
Which in some circumstances could have caused significant loss of life...
You might ask "would it have been better if the crew had made an ad-hoc PA". I would suggest not - again, the program seems to indicate that the response to the one FD PA by the CC was text book with the "Brace Brace" calls. Lessons will be learned from this accident, but until then...
NoD
I wish they had more from the crew though
It was a "very early" documentary (1 month post incident), and Pan Am has had over 50 years to get the facts established
Has anyone received an answer as to why the cabin crew and passengers were not informed that they were ditching and so did not have a chance to don life jackets before impact?
Ditching procedures are designed from Cruise, with appropriate decisions and briefings. Certainly my airline has no "short notice" FD calls for an unexpected ditching. As stated above, if there had been such a call, no doubt the majority of Pax would have known where their LJ was, and in the event they did find it, would then have inflated it Which in some circumstances could have caused significant loss of life...You might ask "would it have been better if the crew had made an ad-hoc PA". I would suggest not - again, the program seems to indicate that the response to the one FD PA by the CC was text book with the "Brace Brace" calls. Lessons will be learned from this accident, but until then...
NoD
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Capt Asoh "FXXXed up"
I was sickened (but not surprised) by the human angle too, so much so that I fell 
.........Now how close did the ferry get again? - Boring.
Couldn't they have at least mentioned the only other successful airline ditching in history? Here and reproduced below.
How do these weak aviation documentaries 'FXXX up' like Capt Asoh, but without the excuses?
DB
Splashdown of the "Shiga"…
In San Francisco Bay, California
November 22, 1968
Landing Before Takeoff...
Kohei Asoh, a 15 year veteran with Japan Air Lines, had served as a flight instructor for the Japanese military in World War II, and had nearly 10,000 hours of flight time - well deserving of his title of "Captain." He was experienced enough to be given the assignment of flying one of JAL's newest acquisitions - a Douglas DC-8, registered as JA8032, which had rolled off the Douglas assembly line in May of 1968, and had been in service with JAL for only six months.
The DC-8, named "Shiga" by the airline, took off from Tokyo at 5:36 on the afternoon of November 22nd, 1968, bound non-stop for San Francisco (SFO). Powered by four Pratt & Whitney JT3D-3B, the eight hour flight would cross the International Date Line, so accounting for time zones and flight time, the flight was scheduled to land nearly seven hours before it took off.
As Captain Asoh, and his flight crew, first officer Joseph Hazen, flight Engineer Richard Fahning, and navigator Ichiryo Suzuki, were approaching SFO at approximately 9 AM, where the weather was reported to be "ceiling indefinite, 300 feet overcast, sky partially obscured, 3/4 mile visibility with fog". The airport's minimums at the time were, 200 feet ceiling and 1/2 mile visibility. Normal communications were established, and the crew was radar vectored to the Woodside VOR and thence to intercept the ILS for Runway 28L at San Francisco.
The cabin crew, consisting of a purser, two stewards, and four stewardesses, prepared the passengers for landing as the plane crossed the Woodside VOR at 9:16 AM at approximately 4,000 feet and, at 9:18 AM, was cleared to descend to 2,000 feet . The flight then descended at a constant, uninterrupted rate towards the airport, lined up on the localizer approach course.
On Final...
The landing gear was lowered and flaps fully extended. When they broke out below the fog, the first officer called, "Breaking out of the overcast, I cannot see the runway light ." He then called out, 'We are too low - Pull up, pull up!"
Asoh applied power to the engines, and started to rotate the aircraft when water contact was made. At a speed of 137 knots, the right main gear hit the water first, followed immediately by the left gear striking. Then, the airplane reportedly made a slow turn to the left, and settled in the shallow waters two and a half miles short of runway 28L, at 9:24 in the morning.
County Park Ranger Doug Lakey was in the Coyote Point parking lot when the plane splashed into the bay. He heard it and immediately notified Harbormaster Art O'Leary who hurried three boats to the plane within minutes. Fire tugs also rushed to the scene to help prevent fire in case jet fuel ignited from a spark.
Wet Feet...
Amazingly, there were no injuries to any of the 96 passengers or 11 crew during the accident and ensuing evacuation.
Two days after the crash, crews from Bigge Drayage Co. and Air International Recovery hoisted the plane out of the water with large floating cranes and placed the plane on a large barge. As soon as the plane was out of the brackish water of San Francisco Bay, some 55 hours after splashdown, salvage crews started washing down the plane with fresh water to help prevent corrosion. The plane was then taken by barge to United Airline's maintenance base at SFO.
The passengers of Japan Air Lines flight #2 raft to shore. Note the plane in the background
"Shiga" being lifted out of the waters of San Francisco Bay.
"Shiga" arriving at SFO via barge
According to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the captain said he was making a coupled approach, but because of problems with his pressure altimeter, he was relying on the more accurate radio altimeter for verification of altitude. The captain looked up expecting to be 200 feet above the water but instead was nearly in the water. He applied power but it was too late. The captain did not cross-check the raw data glide-slope signals and did not realize the ILS on-course position was far above where he was.
As a result, Japan Air Lines changed their training procedures to stress command responsibilities, crew coordination and transition time for new type of aircraft. Asoh was assigned to ground operations in Tokyo as a routine retraining measure, and demoted to co-pilot.
The "Asoh Defense"...
The person ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, Kohei Asoh, said later that he thought he was landing at San Francisco International; instead, the plane belly-flopped into the bay several hundred yards from the runway. But he took full responsibility for the accident and refused to blame anyone else or any other circumstances.
At the NTSB hearing, Captain Asoh took the stand as first witness and supposedly said, in answer to why he had landed in the bay, "As you Americans say, I ****** up."
Such a frank acceptance of blame and responsibility has come to be known as the "Asoh Defense". It has been discussed in various books such "The Abilene Paradox" by Professor Jerry Harvey, publications and in company training films.
The National Transportation Safety Board determined the probable cause of the crash was, "the improper application of the prescribed procedures to execute an automatic-coupled ILS approach. This deviation from the prescribed procedures was, in part, due to a lack of familiarization and infrequent operation of the installed flight director and autopilot system."
She Flys Again...
Repairs were carried out by United Air Lines on the "Shiga", and it was returned to JAL on March 31, 1969, and along with a $4 million invoice for over 52,000 man-hours of labor. JAL changed the name of the aircraft from 'Shiga' to 'Hidaka', and after a successful test flight on April 11, 1969, from San Francisco to Honolulu, the plane went back into regular service with JAL.
The plane continued to fly for Japan Airlines for 14 more years until it was sold in March 1983 to Air ABC and reregistered as TF-BBF. In May of 1983 the plane was leased to Hamzair until December 1983 when it was returned to Air ABC. In July of 1984 it was sold to Okada Air of Nigeria and reregistered as 5N-AON.
A few years later, in April of 1987 the plane was purchased by Airborne Express and reregistered as N808AX. After a second career as a express freighter for Airborne Express, years of fatigue crack caught up with the veteran DC-8, and in December of 2001, it met its demise on the ramp at Wilmington International Airport (ILN) in North Carolina, at the mercy of the salvage crews' hydraulic claws.
A Repeatable Feat...
On the afternoon of January 15th, 2009, an Airbus 320, registered as N106US and flown by USAir captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, ditched in the waters of New York's Hudson River shortly after takeoff from LaGuardia Airport, bound for Charlotte, North Carolina. After power loss of both of the plane's engines, the flight crew of USAir Flight 1549 landed the commercial jetliner with almost no serious injuries to the 155 aboard.
.........Now how close did the ferry get again? - Boring.Couldn't they have at least mentioned the only other successful airline ditching in history? Here and reproduced below.
How do these weak aviation documentaries 'FXXX up' like Capt Asoh, but without the excuses?
DB
Splashdown of the "Shiga"…
In San Francisco Bay, California
November 22, 1968
Landing Before Takeoff...
Kohei Asoh, a 15 year veteran with Japan Air Lines, had served as a flight instructor for the Japanese military in World War II, and had nearly 10,000 hours of flight time - well deserving of his title of "Captain." He was experienced enough to be given the assignment of flying one of JAL's newest acquisitions - a Douglas DC-8, registered as JA8032, which had rolled off the Douglas assembly line in May of 1968, and had been in service with JAL for only six months.
The DC-8, named "Shiga" by the airline, took off from Tokyo at 5:36 on the afternoon of November 22nd, 1968, bound non-stop for San Francisco (SFO). Powered by four Pratt & Whitney JT3D-3B, the eight hour flight would cross the International Date Line, so accounting for time zones and flight time, the flight was scheduled to land nearly seven hours before it took off.
As Captain Asoh, and his flight crew, first officer Joseph Hazen, flight Engineer Richard Fahning, and navigator Ichiryo Suzuki, were approaching SFO at approximately 9 AM, where the weather was reported to be "ceiling indefinite, 300 feet overcast, sky partially obscured, 3/4 mile visibility with fog". The airport's minimums at the time were, 200 feet ceiling and 1/2 mile visibility. Normal communications were established, and the crew was radar vectored to the Woodside VOR and thence to intercept the ILS for Runway 28L at San Francisco.
The cabin crew, consisting of a purser, two stewards, and four stewardesses, prepared the passengers for landing as the plane crossed the Woodside VOR at 9:16 AM at approximately 4,000 feet and, at 9:18 AM, was cleared to descend to 2,000 feet . The flight then descended at a constant, uninterrupted rate towards the airport, lined up on the localizer approach course.
On Final...
The landing gear was lowered and flaps fully extended. When they broke out below the fog, the first officer called, "Breaking out of the overcast, I cannot see the runway light ." He then called out, 'We are too low - Pull up, pull up!"
Asoh applied power to the engines, and started to rotate the aircraft when water contact was made. At a speed of 137 knots, the right main gear hit the water first, followed immediately by the left gear striking. Then, the airplane reportedly made a slow turn to the left, and settled in the shallow waters two and a half miles short of runway 28L, at 9:24 in the morning.
County Park Ranger Doug Lakey was in the Coyote Point parking lot when the plane splashed into the bay. He heard it and immediately notified Harbormaster Art O'Leary who hurried three boats to the plane within minutes. Fire tugs also rushed to the scene to help prevent fire in case jet fuel ignited from a spark.
Wet Feet...
Amazingly, there were no injuries to any of the 96 passengers or 11 crew during the accident and ensuing evacuation.
Two days after the crash, crews from Bigge Drayage Co. and Air International Recovery hoisted the plane out of the water with large floating cranes and placed the plane on a large barge. As soon as the plane was out of the brackish water of San Francisco Bay, some 55 hours after splashdown, salvage crews started washing down the plane with fresh water to help prevent corrosion. The plane was then taken by barge to United Airline's maintenance base at SFO.
The passengers of Japan Air Lines flight #2 raft to shore. Note the plane in the background
"Shiga" being lifted out of the waters of San Francisco Bay.
"Shiga" arriving at SFO via barge
According to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the captain said he was making a coupled approach, but because of problems with his pressure altimeter, he was relying on the more accurate radio altimeter for verification of altitude. The captain looked up expecting to be 200 feet above the water but instead was nearly in the water. He applied power but it was too late. The captain did not cross-check the raw data glide-slope signals and did not realize the ILS on-course position was far above where he was.
As a result, Japan Air Lines changed their training procedures to stress command responsibilities, crew coordination and transition time for new type of aircraft. Asoh was assigned to ground operations in Tokyo as a routine retraining measure, and demoted to co-pilot.
The "Asoh Defense"...
The person ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, Kohei Asoh, said later that he thought he was landing at San Francisco International; instead, the plane belly-flopped into the bay several hundred yards from the runway. But he took full responsibility for the accident and refused to blame anyone else or any other circumstances.
At the NTSB hearing, Captain Asoh took the stand as first witness and supposedly said, in answer to why he had landed in the bay, "As you Americans say, I ****** up."
Such a frank acceptance of blame and responsibility has come to be known as the "Asoh Defense". It has been discussed in various books such "The Abilene Paradox" by Professor Jerry Harvey, publications and in company training films.
The National Transportation Safety Board determined the probable cause of the crash was, "the improper application of the prescribed procedures to execute an automatic-coupled ILS approach. This deviation from the prescribed procedures was, in part, due to a lack of familiarization and infrequent operation of the installed flight director and autopilot system."
She Flys Again...
Repairs were carried out by United Air Lines on the "Shiga", and it was returned to JAL on March 31, 1969, and along with a $4 million invoice for over 52,000 man-hours of labor. JAL changed the name of the aircraft from 'Shiga' to 'Hidaka', and after a successful test flight on April 11, 1969, from San Francisco to Honolulu, the plane went back into regular service with JAL.
The plane continued to fly for Japan Airlines for 14 more years until it was sold in March 1983 to Air ABC and reregistered as TF-BBF. In May of 1983 the plane was leased to Hamzair until December 1983 when it was returned to Air ABC. In July of 1984 it was sold to Okada Air of Nigeria and reregistered as 5N-AON.
A few years later, in April of 1987 the plane was purchased by Airborne Express and reregistered as N808AX. After a second career as a express freighter for Airborne Express, years of fatigue crack caught up with the veteran DC-8, and in December of 2001, it met its demise on the ramp at Wilmington International Airport (ILN) in North Carolina, at the mercy of the salvage crews' hydraulic claws.
A Repeatable Feat...
On the afternoon of January 15th, 2009, an Airbus 320, registered as N106US and flown by USAir captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, ditched in the waters of New York's Hudson River shortly after takeoff from LaGuardia Airport, bound for Charlotte, North Carolina. After power loss of both of the plane's engines, the flight crew of USAir Flight 1549 landed the commercial jetliner with almost no serious injuries to the 155 aboard.
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I just want to ask, is it the norm in the US for ATC to read out :
Cactus Fiftheen Fourthy Nine
Instead of:
Cactus One Five Four Niner
Cactus Fiftheen Fourthy Nine
Instead of:
Cactus One Five Four Niner
Why exactly, I don't know, but it does seem to work in the U.S. For a non-native speaker, it might be harder to do, but ATC is usually reasonably sensitive to that.
American pilots can (and I am one) be sloppy with R/T, so you need to listen not only for what you expect to hear, but variations upon it as well. Unfortunate, but true.
Dream Buster-
I'm not sure I'd call the Shiga a ditching. I'd call it a lucky instance of CFIT. Curious how I'd never even heard of it until today. I have, however, been using the Asoh defense for years... I just didn't know it was called that.
Now, PanAm 943... that's a ditching.
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Um lifting,
I found it fascinating that the DC 8 flew again - I can't see the Airbus doing the same...maybe bits of it.
To me it's definitely a ditching (with a twist). CFI T = Terrain....
I wonder if Capt Asoh is still around? Anybody?
Isn't it refreshing to see somebody take total responsibility - but I thought that's what every pilot signs up to.
DB
I found it fascinating that the DC 8 flew again - I can't see the Airbus doing the same...maybe bits of it.
To me it's definitely a ditching (with a twist). CFI T = Terrain....
I wonder if Capt Asoh is still around? Anybody?
Isn't it refreshing to see somebody take total responsibility - but I thought that's what every pilot signs up to.
DB