Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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From what I have read of the event, a handover of control from the FO to the Capt took place shortly after the birdstrike. Therefore it is probably the FO we hear talking here. What a wonderfully calm and measured voice under the circumstances! I am sure if I were in the same situation I could not manage something like that.
ATC did their usual highly professional job.
Pilots, Cabin crew, ATC and emergency response personnel..... you did yourselves, and the aviation community proud.
ATC did their usual highly professional job.
Pilots, Cabin crew, ATC and emergency response personnel..... you did yourselves, and the aviation community proud.
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Often, in critical times, the PF(PH for folks paid in Euros) becomes the "Communications Officer" when the PNF(the guy watching for Euro paid pilots) gets buried in checklists or other supporting duties.
The guy flying, and talking, often has the easier job.
We still fly with three man crews -
CA
FO
Communications Officer - the least busiest guy during an emergency
The guy flying, and talking, often has the easier job.
We still fly with three man crews -
CA
FO
Communications Officer - the least busiest guy during an emergency
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It would be good to know who's voice that is on the CVR as there seems to have been very little mention of the FO. It would be a shame, especially if the success of the ditching was down to a coordinated crew effort
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He said MAYDAY
In the flurry of new info some of you seem to have forgotten that there already had been an NTSB announcement about the contents of the CVR and the "Mayday" question more than 2 weeks ago:
While NTSB officials say the content of the recording is consistent with interviews conducted after the landing, one word stood out -- mayday.
"We didn't hear it on the air traffic control exchange, it wasn't reported from the interviews with the crews. It does come out on the cockpit voice recorders that he used the term mayday," said Higgins.
Source: NY1 | 24 Hour Local News | Top Stories | NTSB Reviews Black Box Tapes From Flight 1549
As SLF I post this without commentary or analysis - just for the experts' reference."We didn't hear it on the air traffic control exchange, it wasn't reported from the interviews with the crews. It does come out on the cockpit voice recorders that he used the term mayday," said Higgins.
Source: NY1 | 24 Hour Local News | Top Stories | NTSB Reviews Black Box Tapes From Flight 1549
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Class B airspace position information has the helo traffic, including 1SA, explaining her apparent evasive maneuvers noted in *this* thread (or what I suspect will be this thread post-merge) above.
The news sites may only be posting 4-7 minute edits of TRACON, but the agility of the whole system is impressive, and undoubtedly of sound pedagogical value.
The news sites may only be posting 4-7 minute edits of TRACON, but the agility of the whole system is impressive, and undoubtedly of sound pedagogical value.
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Well, the discussion on this thread helps prove my FAA/JAA argument, which is JAA has their heads so far up their pooper scoopers with THEORY, whereas the Americans have (maybe/almost?) perfected the PRACTICAL.
Euros/JAA are so brainwashed into "nothing happens without a Mayday", whereas in the FAA system stating your issue will more often than not be enough to get across what you're dealing with. If it does not, there will be unmistakable clarification.
Also, the controller can declare the emergency for the pilot(s), who in this case, obviously didn't have time.
Just to clarify, so the Brits on here don't have coronaries: FAA teaches the whole concept of Mayday, and Pan, etc. But they also accept "the reality of the situation" as an operating procedure, if that makes sense.
Also, as to the calmness of the voices: anyone who's ever been in a "crappy" situation will probably agree, that in the heat of the moment there is not much time to be or sound scared. You just deal with the task at hand-survival!
Later at the bar having drink, that's when you crap your pants on realizing how much worse it could have been.
IMHO, listening to the voices, I think it is the Capt. talking as well as flying, as the FO was probably busier than hell with trying to restart one; as someone mentioned earlier.
Make note of the voices at take off clearance, and from then on out.
Like I said many times before, NY controllers are some of the best in the world. Respect.
For all involved in the 1549 deal, I'm glad it was NY, and not London, cause without Mayday, they probably would have gotten arrested and violated!
To the Euros/JAA I say, it's time to slowly extract your heads from your arses, and get with the fact that the Yanks have quite a few good ideas and procedures.
Maybe working together to get the best of both sides would make more sense, than the current, politically induced "my dong's bigger than yours" attitudes in play presently.
But what the hell do I know. After all, I'm just a FAA trained and experienced Euro, trying to figure out how to pass this ridiculous conversion!
Euros/JAA are so brainwashed into "nothing happens without a Mayday", whereas in the FAA system stating your issue will more often than not be enough to get across what you're dealing with. If it does not, there will be unmistakable clarification.
Also, the controller can declare the emergency for the pilot(s), who in this case, obviously didn't have time.
Just to clarify, so the Brits on here don't have coronaries: FAA teaches the whole concept of Mayday, and Pan, etc. But they also accept "the reality of the situation" as an operating procedure, if that makes sense.
Also, as to the calmness of the voices: anyone who's ever been in a "crappy" situation will probably agree, that in the heat of the moment there is not much time to be or sound scared. You just deal with the task at hand-survival!
Later at the bar having drink, that's when you crap your pants on realizing how much worse it could have been.
IMHO, listening to the voices, I think it is the Capt. talking as well as flying, as the FO was probably busier than hell with trying to restart one; as someone mentioned earlier.
Make note of the voices at take off clearance, and from then on out.
Like I said many times before, NY controllers are some of the best in the world. Respect.
For all involved in the 1549 deal, I'm glad it was NY, and not London, cause without Mayday, they probably would have gotten arrested and violated!
To the Euros/JAA I say, it's time to slowly extract your heads from your arses, and get with the fact that the Yanks have quite a few good ideas and procedures.
Maybe working together to get the best of both sides would make more sense, than the current, politically induced "my dong's bigger than yours" attitudes in play presently.
But what the hell do I know. After all, I'm just a FAA trained and experienced Euro, trying to figure out how to pass this ridiculous conversion!
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I see: just like in a merger of seniority lists, we (the other thread) were just stapled to the bottom of this list!
I'm gonna have to consider filing a grievance with my union.
I'm gonna have to consider filing a grievance with my union.
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Exactly. What some here fail to realize is that R/T is NOT an end unto itself, it's communication. US ATC doesn't need a verbatim "mayday" call to begin emergency response as the situation dictates, as this audio clearly shows.
).We worry about pay and time off, we leave it to others to endlessly debate R/T procedures. It's a cultural thing.
We do talk some of that there Roger Ramjet talk in the military to keep NATO happy but most of us lose that dialect quickly after we get the civilian job.
Our style is catching on, just spoke with a lady controller at Maastricth tonight and she was using 'Cheerio, and 'Okey-dokey' on the airwaves.
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Well, I seam to have stirred up something of a hornet nest.
Just to make things clear...
I was not in anyway suggesting that the pilots could have done more or the outcome would have changed whatever they had said. I think that they did a fantastic job as I said in my earlier post.
It was just my observations which I was presenting as a discussion point! Some of you have obviously taken it differently.
Just to make things clear...
I was not in anyway suggesting that the pilots could have done more or the outcome would have changed whatever they had said. I think that they did a fantastic job as I said in my earlier post.
It was just my observations which I was presenting as a discussion point! Some of you have obviously taken it differently.
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I suspect the whole Mayday issue may be because most US pilots and ATCs have English as a first, or at least fluent language. Anyone remember the Avianca 707 that ran out of fuel? ATC only realised they had a problem too late because either the flight crew didn't realise the seriousness of their situation or failed to communicate it. Had the word Mayday been used earlier then they might have been safely on the ground because it is pretty unambiguous.
Europe has a whole mix of languages, so a clear and unambiguous indication of emergency is required in case there's otherwise limited understanding of words outside the routine communication. As English continues its creeping takeover of everywhere except France and Quebec, everyone involved is going to be more comfortable using conversational English.
Europe has a whole mix of languages, so a clear and unambiguous indication of emergency is required in case there's otherwise limited understanding of words outside the routine communication. As English continues its creeping takeover of everywhere except France and Quebec, everyone involved is going to be more comfortable using conversational English.
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Sounds like the callsigns used are Cactus 1529 & 1539 whereas theflight was1549, or maybe I am missing something
As a UK pilot, I often find US ATC a bit too slick and clever for me... However, the reaction to the initial call to ATC here, and co-ordination between various airfields was amazing
Mayday? Pan? Can be great calls... but have a meaning, particularly when you need "assistance" from ATC. I would tend to reserve their use until:
1. I need assistance from ATC - this flight clearly did not (what help could they offer?)
2. ATC, and/or other traffic are not giving me the level of assistance I require. A Mayday or Pan then transmitted might up the priority I was given...
ANC - in this situation A & N were all that was required... and actioned. C was pretty irrelevant, and treated as such
The necessary message was got across... understood and actioned. QED NoD
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Years ago, I had a "situation" in a light aircraft that had taken off from BOS on a VFR flight. I told TRACON that I needed an immediate return to the airport (we were about 1500 feet, 2-3 miles from the airport).
"Are you declaring an emergency?" the busy departure controller asked.
I hit the ball back over to his side of the net. "Not if you'll clear right back into the field," I replied.
There are times when the communications about an emergency need spelling out more clearly, as was the case with the unfortunate Avianca 707 fuel exhaustion crash on Long Island as they accepted endless vectors on an approach to JFK, eventually running out of fuel.
Sounds like the communication was superb here with the US Air birdstrike even without the Mayday call.
"Are you declaring an emergency?" the busy departure controller asked.
I hit the ball back over to his side of the net. "Not if you'll clear right back into the field," I replied.
There are times when the communications about an emergency need spelling out more clearly, as was the case with the unfortunate Avianca 707 fuel exhaustion crash on Long Island as they accepted endless vectors on an approach to JFK, eventually running out of fuel.
Sounds like the communication was superb here with the US Air birdstrike even without the Mayday call.
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Looking for opinions on the APU's role in this crash. Honeywell has been making some hay about the WSJ's story stating the APU was powered in the descent, giving the crew full use of the flight control system. I recall reports stating that one engine was at 35% N1 and the RAT was deployed.
If true, doesn't that make the APU's contribution redundant or unused?
Has it been reported/determined if the APU was re-started in flight, or operating continuously since takeoff?
When (after main engine start) is the APU typically shut off? I though operators were shutting them off before takeoff for fuel savings.
I've waded through most of this thread and didn't see this discussed, the Search function returns zero results for "APU" (too short?) and no joy with "auxiliary" (and several misspelled variants).
Thanks!
If true, doesn't that make the APU's contribution redundant or unused?
Has it been reported/determined if the APU was re-started in flight, or operating continuously since takeoff?
When (after main engine start) is the APU typically shut off? I though operators were shutting them off before takeoff for fuel savings.
I've waded through most of this thread and didn't see this discussed, the Search function returns zero results for "APU" (too short?) and no joy with "auxiliary" (and several misspelled variants).
Thanks!
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"Mayday? Pan? Can be great calls... but have a meaning, particularly when you need "assistance" from ATC. I would tend to reserve their use until:
1. I need assistance from ATC - this flight clearly did not (what help could they offer?)"
May be you don't need assistance straight away but a mayday call, and it doesn't have to be the full shebang, just a Mayday...standby, would alert everybody else on freq that someone has a major emergency and so they should be aware where the priority lies.
Again, not criticising the pilots involved more a discussion between cultures....
1. I need assistance from ATC - this flight clearly did not (what help could they offer?)"
May be you don't need assistance straight away but a mayday call, and it doesn't have to be the full shebang, just a Mayday...standby, would alert everybody else on freq that someone has a major emergency and so they should be aware where the priority lies.
Again, not criticising the pilots involved more a discussion between cultures....
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Just throwing this out there but after listening to the tapes a few times it sounds like the first part of the call was cut off by the ATCO talking to another aircraft. This could explain why the Mayday was missing.
My two cents though.............who cares if it was missed the controller got the point.
My two cents though.............who cares if it was missed the controller got the point.
Quote:
Sounds like the callsigns used are Cactus 1529 & 1539 whereas theflight was1549, or maybe I am missing something
And? Did it cause a problem?
No, it did not. Didn't mean to imply this was handled in anything less than terrific fashion. I suppose I was just highlighting my observation skills which pale in comparison to the skills of all involved.
Sounds like the callsigns used are Cactus 1529 & 1539 whereas theflight was1549, or maybe I am missing something
And? Did it cause a problem?
No, it did not. Didn't mean to imply this was handled in anything less than terrific fashion. I suppose I was just highlighting my observation skills which pale in comparison to the skills of all involved.