Crew refuses to take off due to "hostile work environment"
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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It's not smart to give 'any old excuse' as a reason for the delay. There's probably a pilot, mechanic or ATCer in the back who will call bullsh1t.
Part of respect for the passenger is to, within reason, simply and frankly inform them what is going on, being careful not to cause undue alarm to nervous pax.
Give an estimated fix time, but emphasize it is just a guess or you'll be held to it as 'just another lie' if the fix doesn't happen on time.
Part of respect for the passenger is to, within reason, simply and frankly inform them what is going on, being careful not to cause undue alarm to nervous pax.
Give an estimated fix time, but emphasize it is just a guess or you'll be held to it as 'just another lie' if the fix doesn't happen on time.
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Personally I abhor trying to fob off the passengers with excuse number xx from the big airline book of excuses and I feel that paying passengers have a right to know the real reason behind delays.
On a fair few occasions I have gone up to the gate desk and made announcements there. I feel that if the information is given early enough that there will be significant delays then any passengers who may not wish to then travel can make that decision informed and early and it gives us the chance to offload baggage if required. In my experience businessmen, a solid backbone of my company's revenue payers, want info early as they might miss their planned meetings thus making the trip pointless. I have been onboard other carriers as a passenger when we were herded onto the aircraft on schedule, doors closed and locked, off pier and remote holding before we were told there would be a three hour slot delay! I would like to avoid that scenario whenever possible.
Communication is indeed the key, the problem exists within this scenario is 'did the crew feel that their explanations would be adequately received, and thus the situation, when on board, calmed?'. I would probably guess not.
Enjoy
On a fair few occasions I have gone up to the gate desk and made announcements there. I feel that if the information is given early enough that there will be significant delays then any passengers who may not wish to then travel can make that decision informed and early and it gives us the chance to offload baggage if required. In my experience businessmen, a solid backbone of my company's revenue payers, want info early as they might miss their planned meetings thus making the trip pointless. I have been onboard other carriers as a passenger when we were herded onto the aircraft on schedule, doors closed and locked, off pier and remote holding before we were told there would be a three hour slot delay! I would like to avoid that scenario whenever possible.
Communication is indeed the key, the problem exists within this scenario is 'did the crew feel that their explanations would be adequately received, and thus the situation, when on board, calmed?'. I would probably guess not.
Enjoy
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Too many of the non-pilots posting here just don't get it at all and should shut up for once in their lives and listen. It has been repeatedly explained to you that aircraft/crew being delayed are not the fault of the crew. I won't waste my time explaining again some of the reasons that have already been mentioned here. READ THEM!
When are passengers, especially snotty Americans, going to realise that the world does not revolve around you? There are too many factors that must be considered and if you were smart enough and exercised some common sense you would expect some problem to arise each and everytime you make travel arrangements. It's simply the nature of the industry. Weather & technical problems are just some of the things that cause these delays.
Stop being so pig-headed. If you feel you are being "lied" to in the terminal by ground staff about the reason for the delay remember they are GROUND STAFF or perhaps MANAGEMENT. You are not being "lied" to by the cabin crew nor the flight crew so taking it out on them is a sure sign that you are ignorant! Full stop.
When are passengers, especially snotty Americans, going to realise that the world does not revolve around you? There are too many factors that must be considered and if you were smart enough and exercised some common sense you would expect some problem to arise each and everytime you make travel arrangements. It's simply the nature of the industry. Weather & technical problems are just some of the things that cause these delays.
Stop being so pig-headed. If you feel you are being "lied" to in the terminal by ground staff about the reason for the delay remember they are GROUND STAFF or perhaps MANAGEMENT. You are not being "lied" to by the cabin crew nor the flight crew so taking it out on them is a sure sign that you are ignorant! Full stop.
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xfeed,
That's a very contentious line to take if you do indeed wish a career within the airline industry.
The passenger is, along with cargo, the revenue payer. Without them we wouldn't get off the ground and wouldn't get paid, don't forget that. As such they have a right, along with any other service industry, to complain about poor or sub standard service. I wouldn't begrudge them that at all as I have been on the receiving end of poor service many times when traveling.
If a passenger complains to me and I feel their complaint is just then I will explain the reasons for the 'event', for want of a better word, apologise as best I can on behalf of the company and direct them to write their complaint in to the company.
Most people just want to be heard when things go drastically wrong and giving them the time to be heard can often be 95% of the solution.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER alienate your revenue payers, it will come back to bite you.
That's a very contentious line to take if you do indeed wish a career within the airline industry.
The passenger is, along with cargo, the revenue payer. Without them we wouldn't get off the ground and wouldn't get paid, don't forget that. As such they have a right, along with any other service industry, to complain about poor or sub standard service. I wouldn't begrudge them that at all as I have been on the receiving end of poor service many times when traveling.
If a passenger complains to me and I feel their complaint is just then I will explain the reasons for the 'event', for want of a better word, apologise as best I can on behalf of the company and direct them to write their complaint in to the company.
Most people just want to be heard when things go drastically wrong and giving them the time to be heard can often be 95% of the solution.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER alienate your revenue payers, it will come back to bite you.
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Too many of the non-pilots posting here just don't get it at all and should shut up for once in their lives and listen. It has been repeatedly explained to you that aircraft/crew being delayed are not the fault of the crew. I won't waste my time explaining again some of the reasons that have already been mentioned here. READ THEM!
The customer doesn't give a **** which of the supplier's individual employees or subcontractors has screwed up. They don't care. They get really pissed off when supplier's employee says "none of my business, guv, it was somebody else". The customer's business is with the supplier: if the supplier can't sort out the interactions between their staff and subcontractors properly so as to deliver the expected service then that is the supplier's problem, and for any employee of the supplier to try to disclaim responsiblity and blame it on someone else is simply taking the piss.
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A significant problem with US carriers is that management has, for the most part, totally alienated the employees with compensation cuts while management takes gigantic bonuses. Combine this with a failed government and failing economy and you have a situation where the entire industry is going down the tubes. The airline workers have now taken on management's attitude of just hanging-on and milking it as much as possible till the system entirely fails (next winter by my estimate), then jump ship. Airline workers are treated like day-labor now and it's no surprise that they have the same attitude towards customer service that management does.
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I've often heard the reason for delays being cited as "late arrival of the inbound aircraft". This is usually obvious on a lot of EU flights where the same crew stick with the same aircraft through several sectors, so it's obvious by looking out of the window that there's no aircraft yet. If the crew arrive on a different flight then it's a lot less obvious.
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If the pax are paying my wages, can i have a raise then?
I went on a trip by aeroplane a couple of weeks ago because it was cheaper than the train. But I took the train home, despite the higher cost, because the experience of flying was just so awful, and what with the check in time and the security queue time and the delay for unscheduled refuelling and the delay for a new slot it was actually slower than the train. Plus the plane didn't have a mains socket and free wi-fi like wot the train did.
So ... on that route, get rid of the queuing and the delays, so that the plane is actually faster than the train, and you can get away with putting the fare up to somewhere nearer the train fare, and thus have a pay rise - easy peasy!
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I feel your pain...
I am working in the "small airplane" end of the biz now, although I have worked as a regional airline pilot as well. I do five on/five off so that I get to enjoy a minimum of ten regional and ten medium-haul flights as SLF per annum, plus the obligatory German holiday trips, turning around to fly back to hot, sunny places except this time I have to pay instead of get paid, as if that should make a diffo.
This security thing has squeezed whatever pleasure was left in flying right out of it. Shoes off, belt off, pockets emptied, all my goodies disappearing down the X-ray machine while I am stood there in my socks on a grotty floor waiting to go through the metal detector... The flight could go right on the minute after that and I would still be unhappy, so that the crew has an uphill struggle, these days.
It is the little things that really count, like paying for a glass of water. Turns out that under EU law you just tell the hostie that you need to take your medicine, washed down with a glass of water. It is a very tiny pill, invisible in fact.
Given that on my aircraft there is just me and an FO, there is no hiding, even if I wanted to. Never mind the charming fantasy that any situation can be defused with a nice, honest demeanour. Some passengers just think that buying a ticket allows them to be im-flamin'-possible, full stop! Most of them, yes, if you give them an honest explanation that helps a lot but there are still an awful lot of jerks out there loose in the world, what seems to be more than ever...
Has anyone ever flown a charter for a Porsche-drivers' club that was delayed? I would like to know what that is like.
This security thing has squeezed whatever pleasure was left in flying right out of it. Shoes off, belt off, pockets emptied, all my goodies disappearing down the X-ray machine while I am stood there in my socks on a grotty floor waiting to go through the metal detector... The flight could go right on the minute after that and I would still be unhappy, so that the crew has an uphill struggle, these days.
It is the little things that really count, like paying for a glass of water. Turns out that under EU law you just tell the hostie that you need to take your medicine, washed down with a glass of water. It is a very tiny pill, invisible in fact.
Given that on my aircraft there is just me and an FO, there is no hiding, even if I wanted to. Never mind the charming fantasy that any situation can be defused with a nice, honest demeanour. Some passengers just think that buying a ticket allows them to be im-flamin'-possible, full stop! Most of them, yes, if you give them an honest explanation that helps a lot but there are still an awful lot of jerks out there loose in the world, what seems to be more than ever...
Has anyone ever flown a charter for a Porsche-drivers' club that was delayed? I would like to know what that is like.
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wobble2plank,
I'm not trying to alienate passengers. What I am trying to say is why should a hard-working flight crew, that may have had a few sectors and delays down-line due to weather or tech, have to take any ****e from sheeple who don't have a bloody clue what they have been through? I don't give a toss what the SLF were told as to the delay they have no right to berate them once they arrive. If they have issues then contact the airline and lodge a complaint. The fault was not with the men and women on the line.
Gertrude the Wombat,
I have the pleasure of both flying as a pilot (PPL) and passenger so I see both sides. My father was a 747 captain for many years and I used to ride up front with him when it was allowed so I do know the delays that occur. The reason why "The customer doesn't give a ****" is because they believe the world revolves around them so why should they care who's fault it is; they have just been f****d, right? Sheeple mentality.
My comments are not a total disregard of the passengers and their revenue. It's the total disregard of tossers who only think about themselves. Read post #20 by HXdave. A very similar thing happened to the crew my father was with. Enough said.
xfeed
I'm not trying to alienate passengers. What I am trying to say is why should a hard-working flight crew, that may have had a few sectors and delays down-line due to weather or tech, have to take any ****e from sheeple who don't have a bloody clue what they have been through? I don't give a toss what the SLF were told as to the delay they have no right to berate them once they arrive. If they have issues then contact the airline and lodge a complaint. The fault was not with the men and women on the line.
Gertrude the Wombat,
I have the pleasure of both flying as a pilot (PPL) and passenger so I see both sides. My father was a 747 captain for many years and I used to ride up front with him when it was allowed so I do know the delays that occur. The reason why "The customer doesn't give a ****" is because they believe the world revolves around them so why should they care who's fault it is; they have just been f****d, right? Sheeple mentality.
My comments are not a total disregard of the passengers and their revenue. It's the total disregard of tossers who only think about themselves. Read post #20 by HXdave. A very similar thing happened to the crew my father was with. Enough said.
xfeed
Get rid of the muppets who want to blow us all up then the queues will be shorter
Mercifully, for train travel, a sense of perspective has remained in how to cope with that fact. For air travel, rampant paranoia prevails. State led rather than operator led I grant. But completely (forgive the pun) off the rails.
If fuel prices stay high and the air travellers continue to be treated like prisoners returning from a day in the community then short and medium haul operators can watch their custom take the land route. Except in the UK of course where rail travel is an ongoing farce that seems perversly determined to be slower and more expensive than a Cessna 152 with engine trouble.
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Objective is a safe landing
The thread raises a key issue which is contact between the aircraft crew and the paying SLF.
The flight crew have a clear task: accomplish all tasks associated with the flight of the aircraft. Corporate PR is an add-on.
The cabin crew have a clear task: accomplish all safety and service tasks associated with the flight, in that order. Corporate PR is an add-on.
It does raise an issue of discontented SLF. I strongly suggest that ground-ops should diffuse any such issues and if they cannot then they should not allow aircraft boarding for such discontented SLF.
d
The flight crew have a clear task: accomplish all tasks associated with the flight of the aircraft. Corporate PR is an add-on.
The cabin crew have a clear task: accomplish all safety and service tasks associated with the flight, in that order. Corporate PR is an add-on.
It does raise an issue of discontented SLF. I strongly suggest that ground-ops should diffuse any such issues and if they cannot then they should not allow aircraft boarding for such discontented SLF.
d
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Major consideration here.......pax want to get somewhere.....we are the only people capable of taking em......frankly I think flight deck attitude as reported sucks........pax are p*ssed off crew are p*ssed off,.....any sensible skipper would've defused the situation and sorted the problem out.......it's what we're paid to do guys......aren't we.....?
There are deeper questions about seniority and maturity........but I'm sure you've got 'em covered........right.....?
There are deeper questions about seniority and maturity........but I'm sure you've got 'em covered........right.....?
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I buy my ticket to get to my destination
Colleagues, No, we have standards,
Those who do not comply with the required boarding profile will be excluded prior boarding or at latest prior gate departure.
The flight will take place for those who do. Apply this a few times and likely you will not have a recurrent problem.
d
Those who do not comply with the required boarding profile will be excluded prior boarding or at latest prior gate departure.
The flight will take place for those who do. Apply this a few times and likely you will not have a recurrent problem.
d
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Sorry, another SLF opinion
When I purchase tickets to go somewhere I try to make sure I'll get to my destination the day before I have to be there. Likewise I try to ensure more than the minimum of time between connecting flights. I know that delays can happen and I don't want to get stressed out.
I spent about 24 hours in the domestic side of San Francisco airport after the return of my international flight. Hey it wasn't pleasant and I missed connecting flights. Speaking to one of the cabin crew later, they probably had a worse time than the passengers.
Even though I pax quite a bit, I still try to treat every trip as an adventure. Looking at it that way, the minor annoyances, delays, problems, etc that crop up from time to time can be viewed as "gaining valuable experience" :-) It's a shame that so many people take their own plans so seriously -- lighten up, your attitude *ISN'T* going to make it any faster or more comfortable.
I'm sure that no crew are *all* going to sleep in. If one did the others would get them up. So a crew arriving late cannot logically be as a result of some individual selfish action.
I fully support whoever took the decision not to fly this day. I've seen passengers get ugly with crew and I'm full of praise for them being able to handle even 1 of them. But a planeload would be a bloody nightmare.
I think that some of those passengers needed their attitudes adjusting.
I spent about 24 hours in the domestic side of San Francisco airport after the return of my international flight. Hey it wasn't pleasant and I missed connecting flights. Speaking to one of the cabin crew later, they probably had a worse time than the passengers.
Even though I pax quite a bit, I still try to treat every trip as an adventure. Looking at it that way, the minor annoyances, delays, problems, etc that crop up from time to time can be viewed as "gaining valuable experience" :-) It's a shame that so many people take their own plans so seriously -- lighten up, your attitude *ISN'T* going to make it any faster or more comfortable.
I'm sure that no crew are *all* going to sleep in. If one did the others would get them up. So a crew arriving late cannot logically be as a result of some individual selfish action.
I fully support whoever took the decision not to fly this day. I've seen passengers get ugly with crew and I'm full of praise for them being able to handle even 1 of them. But a planeload would be a bloody nightmare.
I think that some of those passengers needed their attitudes adjusting.
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Quote: “Except in the UK of course where rail travel is an ongoing farce that seems perversly determined to be slower and more expensive than a Cessna 152 with engine trouble.”
The above seems to be rather unfair. Give credit where it is due!
Over the past three or so weeks a significant item in both UK and International news has been the need for five new high speed rail lines in the UK to cope with ever increasing pax traffic. Over the past decade rail pax numbers have increased over 40% to 1946 levels, about the highest ever annual total. This is expected to increase by a further 30% over the next decade, plus of course any additional traffic diverted from UK internal airlines by the actions of some of the clowns above.
Another current article confirmed the need by pointing out that at peak times now each UK rail pax often has less space on crowded coaches than is legally required for animals travelling by rail. Since the mid-1960s the UK railways have been a great success story. To some extent they have been a victim of their own success in attracting new customers; thus the need for new lines and other actions to cope with the huge traffic increases.
Carrier and Mrs C used the UK rail system fairly extensively on several visits to England during the past three years. With or without BritRail Passes we considered it great value for money. It was fast, comfortable and convenient - except on Sundays when “Engineering” wrecks the system. We had none of the wasted time associated with air travel, there were no security hassles, no having to book ahead, no check-in hassles and nobody was concerned with how many pieces of luggage we had or what they weighed. Catering was good, both on trains and at major stations. We often made an early start and had breakfast on the train. It was good on Midland Mainline but less desirable and pricier on Virgin Trains. Overall, what a pleasant way to travel! The airline industry could learn a lot from the UK rail system.
Of the services we used Midland Mainline was definitely the best, followed by Central Trains, then there was a gap to Southern and South Eastern. Bringing up the bottom in customer service, inconvenient provision for luggage on long-distance trains, insolent and evasive staff attitude, poor time-keeping and predatory pricing was Virgin Trains. We could not help commenting that the anti-customer attitude and customer service levels of most airlines have been faithfully replicated in Virgin Trains. It’s almost as if it is run by airline “management” or those who wish to ape it!
The above seems to be rather unfair. Give credit where it is due!
Over the past three or so weeks a significant item in both UK and International news has been the need for five new high speed rail lines in the UK to cope with ever increasing pax traffic. Over the past decade rail pax numbers have increased over 40% to 1946 levels, about the highest ever annual total. This is expected to increase by a further 30% over the next decade, plus of course any additional traffic diverted from UK internal airlines by the actions of some of the clowns above.
Another current article confirmed the need by pointing out that at peak times now each UK rail pax often has less space on crowded coaches than is legally required for animals travelling by rail. Since the mid-1960s the UK railways have been a great success story. To some extent they have been a victim of their own success in attracting new customers; thus the need for new lines and other actions to cope with the huge traffic increases.
Carrier and Mrs C used the UK rail system fairly extensively on several visits to England during the past three years. With or without BritRail Passes we considered it great value for money. It was fast, comfortable and convenient - except on Sundays when “Engineering” wrecks the system. We had none of the wasted time associated with air travel, there were no security hassles, no having to book ahead, no check-in hassles and nobody was concerned with how many pieces of luggage we had or what they weighed. Catering was good, both on trains and at major stations. We often made an early start and had breakfast on the train. It was good on Midland Mainline but less desirable and pricier on Virgin Trains. Overall, what a pleasant way to travel! The airline industry could learn a lot from the UK rail system.
Of the services we used Midland Mainline was definitely the best, followed by Central Trains, then there was a gap to Southern and South Eastern. Bringing up the bottom in customer service, inconvenient provision for luggage on long-distance trains, insolent and evasive staff attitude, poor time-keeping and predatory pricing was Virgin Trains. We could not help commenting that the anti-customer attitude and customer service levels of most airlines have been faithfully replicated in Virgin Trains. It’s almost as if it is run by airline “management” or those who wish to ape it!
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Carrier, considering that I pax with First Great Western (FGW) and Virgin Trains (VT) quite a lot, I have to disagree with your assessment that VT is the worst. Sadly, us in the western corridor have to deal with FGW, and they are worse than VT used to be in their bad days (after bringing in the XC diesels and before the Pendolino).
The VT Pendolino services are arguably some of the best services I've had the pleasure of travelling on, certainly bending better than TGV or Eurostar do (both TGV and Eurostar 'bend' based on grading, not actively tilting like the Pendolino does), but worse than a Shinkansen.
When FGW finally gets round to completing its renovation schedule of the MkIII carriages on their HST125's á la GNER while improving service reliability (they are terrible on that), then I might change my mind. The FGW Thames Turbos are in a pittance of a state, and more often than not we are delayed out of Paddington because of some reason or other on the service, not because of signalling (which the Reading-Paddington corridor is infamous for).
Generally, the state of British rail is good. South West Trains (SWT) do a reasonable job, GNER before Sea Containers went bang and they lost the franchise was not bad. Funnily enough, West Anglia Great Northern (WAGN) wasn't too bad either with their fast services. Their local stopping services left much to be desired. And since First took over the franchise for First Capital Connect (FCC), the service has gotten worse.
S.
The VT Pendolino services are arguably some of the best services I've had the pleasure of travelling on, certainly bending better than TGV or Eurostar do (both TGV and Eurostar 'bend' based on grading, not actively tilting like the Pendolino does), but worse than a Shinkansen.
When FGW finally gets round to completing its renovation schedule of the MkIII carriages on their HST125's á la GNER while improving service reliability (they are terrible on that), then I might change my mind. The FGW Thames Turbos are in a pittance of a state, and more often than not we are delayed out of Paddington because of some reason or other on the service, not because of signalling (which the Reading-Paddington corridor is infamous for).
Generally, the state of British rail is good. South West Trains (SWT) do a reasonable job, GNER before Sea Containers went bang and they lost the franchise was not bad. Funnily enough, West Anglia Great Northern (WAGN) wasn't too bad either with their fast services. Their local stopping services left much to be desired. And since First took over the franchise for First Capital Connect (FCC), the service has gotten worse.
S.
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Good on the crew.
I would like to think that I too would have turned around and walked off refusing to carry this rabble.
Who the hell do they think they are?
When they (the pax) inevitably turned up (eventually) for their business meeting did their peers, colleagues or clients boo them?
Did their spouse's / kids abuse them?
I would like to think that I too would have turned around and walked off refusing to carry this rabble.
Who the hell do they think they are?
When they (the pax) inevitably turned up (eventually) for their business meeting did their peers, colleagues or clients boo them?
Did their spouse's / kids abuse them?
So yes, I bet some of them did get abuse from clients, bosses and perhaps even family. That's what life is like. If we all just downed-tools and walked out whenever some client or boss got arsey, the world would grind to a halt. It doesn't make it right, but it happens to everybody.