Crew refuses to take off due to "hostile work environment"
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: MAN
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used nappies in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used sick bags in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped dropping garbage all over the cabin floor.
Its about time passengers stopped coming on board pissed.
Its about time passengers stopped abusing airline crew.
Its about time passengers took a bath.
Its about time passengers realised that their cheap fares are part funded by eroded pay and conditions of airline staff. They pay cattle truck prices, so they get a cattle truck to travel in.
How about the crew booing and jeering late passengers on board.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used sick bags in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped dropping garbage all over the cabin floor.
Its about time passengers stopped coming on board pissed.
Its about time passengers stopped abusing airline crew.
Its about time passengers took a bath.
Its about time passengers realised that their cheap fares are part funded by eroded pay and conditions of airline staff. They pay cattle truck prices, so they get a cattle truck to travel in.
How about the crew booing and jeering late passengers on board.
(I'm not condoning the behaviour you list, but it is not a symmetric relationship and I wonder if you take the same attitude when the cheap consumer goods you can buy because other people work for peanuts turn out to be low standard?)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Durham
Age: 62
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As SLF I would like to offer a few comments and also to dispel a myth that has been cited on this post. Patients do abuse doctors and medical staff on a frequent basis. I'm a senior nurse and I have been attacked on three occasions this year and dragged patients out of consultations with surgeons more frequently than that. It disturbs me when a "customer" or patient - feels that their vociferous complaint means that they are entitled to use intimidation to air their greivances.
As a passenger (quiet put occaisionally pissed if the flight is late - but even quieter when pissed) may I say that I hate being with obstreperous, noisy, aggressive passengers. I dont think I'm alone in thinking that. We trust that airline staff be they ground crew or cabin crew will act in the case of aggression from passengers. I am well aware of the laws and restrictions regarding behaviour on aircraft and within airports and would not do anything even close to fall foul of them, but I do expect action to be taken when others dont abide by those same rules. I have to board that aircraft too and I want to know that nothing will kick off with any passengers on my flight. Unfortunately cabin crew do seem to aquiesce to "demanding" passengers to the detriment of compliant passengers. If the flight in quesiton did not take off then I would think that there were many passengers who were quiet and not abusive that were affected by the crew's decision and did not deserve that treatment.
A 1 hour delay is neither here nor there and if connecting flights are so tight then a little more thought is needed when you book the flights. As for longer delays you run into biological constraints. If I dont get food or drink within about 4 hours I am going to be more than restless. If the delay is more than 8 hours then needing somewhere comfortable to sleep is needed. If the airline is concerned about these basics then I can accept a delay. If they arent then they shouldnt be taking passengers.
As some have said, communication is paramount. I dont want to get on to an aircraft that doesnt pass safety tests. If the aircraft has a fault then it is vital that the people waiting in the departure lounge know that. Display boards are good but a person saying what the problem is is better. I can give an example... Virgin Atlantic to JFK from Gatwick. Communication was superb. It was a long series of tech faults but at one point one of the ground staff team stood on a table and described the problems encountered. I felt that we were sharing the frustrations of the flight crew rather than being antagonisitic towards them. 9 hour delay but kept fed and watered it wanst so bad.
I dont think that managerial issues wuold be treated with much sympathy though. If a crew wasnt available because of rest time the I would question the planning of the airline. Even then I would accept that if I was at an airport away from the airline base then a little leeway would be understandable. If it was flying BA from Heathrow or Virgin from Gatwick or AA from JFK then I would have little tolerance.
As a passenger (quiet put occaisionally pissed if the flight is late - but even quieter when pissed) may I say that I hate being with obstreperous, noisy, aggressive passengers. I dont think I'm alone in thinking that. We trust that airline staff be they ground crew or cabin crew will act in the case of aggression from passengers. I am well aware of the laws and restrictions regarding behaviour on aircraft and within airports and would not do anything even close to fall foul of them, but I do expect action to be taken when others dont abide by those same rules. I have to board that aircraft too and I want to know that nothing will kick off with any passengers on my flight. Unfortunately cabin crew do seem to aquiesce to "demanding" passengers to the detriment of compliant passengers. If the flight in quesiton did not take off then I would think that there were many passengers who were quiet and not abusive that were affected by the crew's decision and did not deserve that treatment.
A 1 hour delay is neither here nor there and if connecting flights are so tight then a little more thought is needed when you book the flights. As for longer delays you run into biological constraints. If I dont get food or drink within about 4 hours I am going to be more than restless. If the delay is more than 8 hours then needing somewhere comfortable to sleep is needed. If the airline is concerned about these basics then I can accept a delay. If they arent then they shouldnt be taking passengers.
As some have said, communication is paramount. I dont want to get on to an aircraft that doesnt pass safety tests. If the aircraft has a fault then it is vital that the people waiting in the departure lounge know that. Display boards are good but a person saying what the problem is is better. I can give an example... Virgin Atlantic to JFK from Gatwick. Communication was superb. It was a long series of tech faults but at one point one of the ground staff team stood on a table and described the problems encountered. I felt that we were sharing the frustrations of the flight crew rather than being antagonisitic towards them. 9 hour delay but kept fed and watered it wanst so bad.
I dont think that managerial issues wuold be treated with much sympathy though. If a crew wasnt available because of rest time the I would question the planning of the airline. Even then I would accept that if I was at an airport away from the airline base then a little leeway would be understandable. If it was flying BA from Heathrow or Virgin from Gatwick or AA from JFK then I would have little tolerance.
Difficult to imagine the situation that crew were in. Just a few booers and hissers, half the pax, all of them? How long did it take the crew to decide it was a "hostile environment", who decided, did the captain try - or even contemplate - an explanation? Etc etc etc. The only parties one can feel judgmental about are the idiots who booed.
And a personal impression of BA: always good explanations to pax for inconveniencies, e.g. Wed 9 Jul BA0247 LHR/GRU, no air conditioning during boarding, delay completing cargo then delay crossing 27L, all clearly explained and apologised for without any hint of blaming someone else.
And a personal impression of BA: always good explanations to pax for inconveniencies, e.g. Wed 9 Jul BA0247 LHR/GRU, no air conditioning during boarding, delay completing cargo then delay crossing 27L, all clearly explained and apologised for without any hint of blaming someone else.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used nappies in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used sick bags in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped dropping garbage all over the cabin floor.
Its about time passengers stopped coming on board pissed.
Its about time passengers stopped abusing airline crew.
Its about time passengers took a bath.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used sick bags in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped dropping garbage all over the cabin floor.
Its about time passengers stopped coming on board pissed.
Its about time passengers stopped abusing airline crew.
Its about time passengers took a bath.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's always a trash container in the galleys. Just drop it off when getting up to use the lav. This ain't rocket science. I'll bet the kind of people that trash an airplane have houses that look just like it. The trailer-trash think it's normal to look like that.
And I'll bet that a lot of the jerks that treat airline employees like crap, also treat their own families that way.
The sad truth is a lot of people don't care one bit about anybody else except themselves. Common courtesy and manners are thought to be quaint and irrelevant in today's society. One big reason is that there are no consequences to bad boorish behavior. If unruly passengers got banned from flying the airline, they might behave differently, even if not for the right reasons.
And I'll bet that a lot of the jerks that treat airline employees like crap, also treat their own families that way.
The sad truth is a lot of people don't care one bit about anybody else except themselves. Common courtesy and manners are thought to be quaint and irrelevant in today's society. One big reason is that there are no consequences to bad boorish behavior. If unruly passengers got banned from flying the airline, they might behave differently, even if not for the right reasons.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll bet the kind of people that trash an airplane have houses that look just like it. The trailer-trash think it's normal to look like that.
N4790P
Then why is it that Business Class always seems to look like a bomb hit it compared to economy?
2) There really is nowhere to deposit it (other than taking it to the galley as has already been stated).
Fortunately on TG which I utilise for 90% of my flights, the CC are extremely good at regularly collecting discarded rubbish .
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Seattle
Age: 63
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I could just offer another voice of opinion as SLF.
I've been traveling since a child of the 60's. I continue to dress like I've always done: Professional and/or respectable As always, I continue to smile and greet cabin or flight crew as I board, as if they are the most respected members of my trip--of which I believe they are. Over the recent years, I continue to experience a decline in crew who are surly and actively treat passengers as if they are the nemesis to their otherwise good day.
I push the call button and nothing happens. I ask for a pillow or blanket and no one ever comes back to say yes, we have, or no, we don't. "Do you happen to have a bandaid...pain reliever"?... no return of cabin crew, AGAIN. I continue to give pleasantries upon my arrival to intended destination. I barely get eye contact upon departure. And I'd like to add that I fly at least 12 times a year on buisness.
Folks...do I have to be in 1st or Business Class to get decent service? I think PAX may be giving what they get these days. Maybe there are two sides to the story.
Feedback welcome...
C of F
I've been traveling since a child of the 60's. I continue to dress like I've always done: Professional and/or respectable As always, I continue to smile and greet cabin or flight crew as I board, as if they are the most respected members of my trip--of which I believe they are. Over the recent years, I continue to experience a decline in crew who are surly and actively treat passengers as if they are the nemesis to their otherwise good day.
I push the call button and nothing happens. I ask for a pillow or blanket and no one ever comes back to say yes, we have, or no, we don't. "Do you happen to have a bandaid...pain reliever"?... no return of cabin crew, AGAIN. I continue to give pleasantries upon my arrival to intended destination. I barely get eye contact upon departure. And I'd like to add that I fly at least 12 times a year on buisness.
Folks...do I have to be in 1st or Business Class to get decent service? I think PAX may be giving what they get these days. Maybe there are two sides to the story.
Feedback welcome...
C of F
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 445
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few thoughts that spring to mind on this thread, some of which have been stated before:
1- Correct information, correct information, correct information....to pax, crew and ground staff.
2- A reliable infrastructure to distribute this information is a must.
3- Pax mob reaction to late start is pretty endemic within society today. Not sure who to blame for that one but it seems to be the way things are going.
4- Crew reactions from some posters are also off mark. You are in a service industry and if you do not provide a good service (your fault or not) then dont expect good reactions, even if they are way out of line.
5- From my experience, even if you complain directly to an airline about its lack of service, at most expect a standard "thank you for your letter.....your feedback is being looked into......", then nothing.
6- Airlines and industries as a whole, are always looking at ways to cut costs as they have shareholders to report to, so dont expect thoughts 1, 2 or 5 above to get addressed in the near future.
1- Correct information, correct information, correct information....to pax, crew and ground staff.
2- A reliable infrastructure to distribute this information is a must.
3- Pax mob reaction to late start is pretty endemic within society today. Not sure who to blame for that one but it seems to be the way things are going.
4- Crew reactions from some posters are also off mark. You are in a service industry and if you do not provide a good service (your fault or not) then dont expect good reactions, even if they are way out of line.
5- From my experience, even if you complain directly to an airline about its lack of service, at most expect a standard "thank you for your letter.....your feedback is being looked into......", then nothing.
6- Airlines and industries as a whole, are always looking at ways to cut costs as they have shareholders to report to, so dont expect thoughts 1, 2 or 5 above to get addressed in the near future.
Stercus Accidit
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Swimming with bowlegged women
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
taking about communicating
At Amsterdam Schiphol, when collecting your luggage, the display now shows:
Flight number and origin
1 Luggage being unloaded from the plane, or
2 Luggage all unloaded from the plane, or
3 Luggage expected at this belt at ..:.. (time), or
4 All luggage now on the belt
It s called information...... It s what s needed.... timely accurate and honest information
Gone is the stress, back are the smiles
At Amsterdam Schiphol, when collecting your luggage, the display now shows:
Flight number and origin
1 Luggage being unloaded from the plane, or
2 Luggage all unloaded from the plane, or
3 Luggage expected at this belt at ..:.. (time), or
4 All luggage now on the belt
It s called information...... It s what s needed.... timely accurate and honest information
Gone is the stress, back are the smiles
The timely and right information always gives a peace of mind.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: JAPAN
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What to say? I am an old retired pro and now just a SLF. Back in my days it was an honor to fly an airplane, we would never be late. Back in my days the FAs were required to meet certain rules. Back in my days passengers were different. However, now in the U.S. everything is union organized and sort of out of touch (and I expect to be beaten up for that ). It's an ugly situation and nowadays it is pc incorrect to talk about it. But just today on another website I asked the question, what would happen if a U.S. company would start a LCC International carrier, like Qantas with Jetstar or like BA with Openskies. Yes, it is good to be an "old" guy with long memories, PA/TW/EA/BN. Those were the good times. But that's a long time ago. It will never be the same.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whole crews don't show up late unless it's a company scheduling problem or a delay ripple through the day. That's not driven by the union or the individual crewmembers.
From my direct and current experience, it's the aircrews that are going well above what's expected to try and move the aircraft, despite inept managers that don't ensure the required resources are there to prep and move the airplane . . . mx, ground push crew, etc. I have not had a crew induced delay in many years, despite the fact that managers will sometimes secretly lie and code a flight late due to crew. Even if the pilots wanted to cause delays, they don't have to. All they need to do is "do their job" and watch the management-created buffoonery around them.
You're right. It's not the good ol' days when the Captain had authority in the air and on the ground. Management see pilots as nothing but bus drivers that have no authority on the ground.
From my direct and current experience, it's the aircrews that are going well above what's expected to try and move the aircraft, despite inept managers that don't ensure the required resources are there to prep and move the airplane . . . mx, ground push crew, etc. I have not had a crew induced delay in many years, despite the fact that managers will sometimes secretly lie and code a flight late due to crew. Even if the pilots wanted to cause delays, they don't have to. All they need to do is "do their job" and watch the management-created buffoonery around them.
You're right. It's not the good ol' days when the Captain had authority in the air and on the ground. Management see pilots as nothing but bus drivers that have no authority on the ground.
Last edited by Roadtrip; 14th Jul 2008 at 19:38.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Then why is it that Business Class always seems to look like a bomb hit it compared to economy?
Most likely due to all the crap they give out before and during the flight
- Broadsheet newspapers (probably about 100 pages +)
- Eye shades
- Headsets
- Slippers
- Washbags
- Blankets
- Extra pillows
- Hot and cold towls
plus all the usual seat pocket goodies such as inflight mag, duty free mag, inflight entertainment guide, sick bag etc etc...
And that's not to mention the meal service with 3 sets of cutlery, toothpicks, pepper and salt cellars, napkins, tissues.
No wonder ! Where the hell do you put all this stuff...? Usually ends up on the floor, down the side of the seat, in the seatback pocket.
Anyone ever weigh this stuff ?
Then why is it that Business Class always seems to look like a bomb hit it compared to economy?
Most likely due to all the crap they give out before and during the flight
- Broadsheet newspapers (probably about 100 pages +)
- Eye shades
- Headsets
- Slippers
- Washbags
- Blankets
- Extra pillows
- Hot and cold towls
plus all the usual seat pocket goodies such as inflight mag, duty free mag, inflight entertainment guide, sick bag etc etc...
And that's not to mention the meal service with 3 sets of cutlery, toothpicks, pepper and salt cellars, napkins, tissues.
No wonder ! Where the hell do you put all this stuff...? Usually ends up on the floor, down the side of the seat, in the seatback pocket.
Anyone ever weigh this stuff ?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair comment 45989.
However I would have thought most business class travellers want the seat and are not too bothered with all the other stuff that gets thrown at them (literally on some carriers....)
Anyway back on thread !
However I would have thought most business class travellers want the seat and are not too bothered with all the other stuff that gets thrown at them (literally on some carriers....)
Anyway back on thread !
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the little information we have about the situation in question, I think the crew did the right thing. If I was in the same situation, I'd probably do the same. The reason why I would make this decision would be that a bunch of angry passengers is bad enough on the ground when you can get away from them, but when you're stuck in a silver tube in the sky with them, with nowhere to go... Not a good situation at all.
Yes, I'm all for open and honest communication. I must say though, that from experience, a lot of passengers don't listen to announcements (possibly quite a lot of the announcements are done in "mumble" language as well). They may not be at the gate at the time of the announcement, or they may be busy doing something else at the time.
I say this, because of experience. Some months ago, we had to operate with 2 crew on a 737 (less than 99 pax). The role then for cabin crew is to be on door watch, and we are not required to do any cabin service. I asked the ground staff to make an announcement (and what to say) in the lounge, so pax could get coffee/food etc before departure. I was at the gate when the announcement was made. Still, when the Captain mentioned the situation on the introduction pa, half the pax groaned and said "they could've told us at the gate!". I ended up giving a detailed explanation of the situation after take off, and even though speaking as clearly and slowly as possible (without sounding patronising), pax still didn't listen.
There are a lot of pax in this world who will not believe whatever we say to them in regards to delays. So many people assume that we are going to lie to them anyway, so why even try to believe it? I've had diversions due to fog, where (after a 15 hr duty due to weather) the pax tell me that there is no fog in XXX as they've just talked to their partner at home and it's fine there (home being 30 min away from the airport, forgetting that fog can be very local). That is when I have to explain that I really don't want to have a delay either, and surely we wouldn't divert an aircraft just to inconvenience our pax?
The last thing we as crew want, is delays. It adds extra hassle to our day (same as for pax). We end up late home (try to explain again to the babysitter) and get hassle from pax. I understand that delays are annoying, I truly do, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Tech delays are self explanatory to most, although some pax still don't get it, thinking we can just get another plane from somewhere. ATC delays are mightily annoying, but the flow of traffic is controlled for a reason, therefore we can't take off and land whenever and wherever we like.
I'm very happy to explain to any pax why we are delayed (not to be confused with being happy about the delay). However, I will not be shouted at, verbally abused or similar. If someone tries to shout at me, I calmly and politely explain that I will talk to them in 5 minutes when they've calmed down.
Yes, we need more communication, training and listening skills. All of us, from crew to ground staff to passengers.
Gg
(once again apologising for length of post)
Yes, I'm all for open and honest communication. I must say though, that from experience, a lot of passengers don't listen to announcements (possibly quite a lot of the announcements are done in "mumble" language as well). They may not be at the gate at the time of the announcement, or they may be busy doing something else at the time.
I say this, because of experience. Some months ago, we had to operate with 2 crew on a 737 (less than 99 pax). The role then for cabin crew is to be on door watch, and we are not required to do any cabin service. I asked the ground staff to make an announcement (and what to say) in the lounge, so pax could get coffee/food etc before departure. I was at the gate when the announcement was made. Still, when the Captain mentioned the situation on the introduction pa, half the pax groaned and said "they could've told us at the gate!". I ended up giving a detailed explanation of the situation after take off, and even though speaking as clearly and slowly as possible (without sounding patronising), pax still didn't listen.
There are a lot of pax in this world who will not believe whatever we say to them in regards to delays. So many people assume that we are going to lie to them anyway, so why even try to believe it? I've had diversions due to fog, where (after a 15 hr duty due to weather) the pax tell me that there is no fog in XXX as they've just talked to their partner at home and it's fine there (home being 30 min away from the airport, forgetting that fog can be very local). That is when I have to explain that I really don't want to have a delay either, and surely we wouldn't divert an aircraft just to inconvenience our pax?
The last thing we as crew want, is delays. It adds extra hassle to our day (same as for pax). We end up late home (try to explain again to the babysitter) and get hassle from pax. I understand that delays are annoying, I truly do, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Tech delays are self explanatory to most, although some pax still don't get it, thinking we can just get another plane from somewhere. ATC delays are mightily annoying, but the flow of traffic is controlled for a reason, therefore we can't take off and land whenever and wherever we like.
I'm very happy to explain to any pax why we are delayed (not to be confused with being happy about the delay). However, I will not be shouted at, verbally abused or similar. If someone tries to shout at me, I calmly and politely explain that I will talk to them in 5 minutes when they've calmed down.
Yes, we need more communication, training and listening skills. All of us, from crew to ground staff to passengers.
Gg
(once again apologising for length of post)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some months ago, we had to operate with 2 crew on a 737 (less than 99 pax). The role then for cabin crew is to be on door watch, and we are not required to do any cabin service.
One wonders, would it be any different if three CC had been present?
Not likely
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A,
What I meant by "required" is that we tell the pax that there won't be any cabin service (meals/drinks) due to crew sickness or similar (whatever the reason we're going 2 crew). We are not "required" by the company to provide a cabin service with a 2 crew operation on the 737. The reason we can operate it with 2 crew (from out stations only) is to bring the aircraft home.
If we had 3 crew on board, yes, we are required by the company to provide cabin service, it is in our contract.
Hope this clarifies for you.
Gg
What I meant by "required" is that we tell the pax that there won't be any cabin service (meals/drinks) due to crew sickness or similar (whatever the reason we're going 2 crew). We are not "required" by the company to provide a cabin service with a 2 crew operation on the 737. The reason we can operate it with 2 crew (from out stations only) is to bring the aircraft home.
If we had 3 crew on board, yes, we are required by the company to provide cabin service, it is in our contract.
Hope this clarifies for you.
Gg
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, WA
Age: 58
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
booed
our flight crew was booed in Oakland during a LAS-BUR-HNL flight that diverted from BUR to OAK. Folks probably woke up at 3 a.m. to get to the airport, and hadn't been fed by noon the same day.
That was with a carrier that doesn't exist anymore, but had typically poor planning.
That was with a carrier that doesn't exist anymore, but had typically poor planning.