BALPA and BA talks breakdown
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So, because DAN GSS BACX CCs did not do a good job and left a lot of bitter and twisted people out there, BACC and BA pilots do not deserve any support. Nor it appears do they have any right to fight for their own future T&Cs, just because some other CCs were not supported BY THEIR OWN PILOTS. You can't make this stuff up
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the main purpose of which arrangement was to preserve the Ts and Cs of mainline pilots enabling them to work at their exiting regional bases whilst doing nothing of any relevance to assist the majority of existing BACX pilots whilst bases were closed right left and centre and fleets disposed of.
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Ah so you think that in sympathy the BA pilots should have just said "Sorry boys, very sad to hear that your bases are closing, take our jobs instead and we'll all **** off to London". Yeah right! Damn right the BA pilots should protect their own jobs first and foremost, it's not like you'd do any different. It's a pity that you don't see the handover of 120 jobs as being something of any relevance to the career prospects of BACX pilots. Perhaps you would like to explain to independent readers what proportion of total BACX jobs those 120 constituted, or how you would actually be better off without them?
Where indeed where all you BA guys when those of us in DAN GSS BACX and Connect etc. needed a lifeline to the mothership and were being shafted every which way?
Looking the other way is the answer.
Looking the other way is the answer.
I have 35+ years potential service at BA, is it unreasonable for me to want to see my career and the company's business plans linked?
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The point in issue HS is that it would have made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the living standards of existing BA pilots to have leant their support through Balpa in achieving BACX CCs aspiration to have given BACX pilots access to Mainline at the bottom of BAs seniority list thereby affording a lifeline to those that were otherwise made redundant or had to seek jobs with other airlines than within BA....whilst BA continued to recruit outside.
Thre was nothing magnanimous about the RJ arrangment. It was devised purely and simply to serve the interests of Mainline pilots and had so many strings attached to it that it was irrelevant to the majority of existing BACX pilots.
Coming back to Little Princes post, what grates with many of us is the fact that all of a sudden the "BA family " has become relevant when previously you have not given a tuppeny damn about your relatives.
Thre was nothing magnanimous about the RJ arrangment. It was devised purely and simply to serve the interests of Mainline pilots and had so many strings attached to it that it was irrelevant to the majority of existing BACX pilots.
Coming back to Little Princes post, what grates with many of us is the fact that all of a sudden the "BA family " has become relevant when previously you have not given a tuppeny damn about your relatives.
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Tinytim,
I was a regional pilot in the mid 90's. BA (as Highlands and Islands) was flying lots of little routes around the North of the UK with ATP's at the time. Over in the Irish Sea was a little flying outfit called Manx airlines. Run with all the sovereign pride that such an island could muster. I'm sure it was a very good outfit to work for.
During that decade that 'little' Manx airlines became rather large as it was handed all these Highlands and Islands routes (and ATP hulls). It was initially known as British Regional Airlines and later became BACX.
If you want to wind back the clock and whine "Where were you when our bases were closed?". Then wind it back to a time when the shoe was on the other foot!
I find your selective attention to the history of the Regions under the BA brand tiring and you come across as very bitter. Don't become a '411A' !
I was a regional pilot in the mid 90's. BA (as Highlands and Islands) was flying lots of little routes around the North of the UK with ATP's at the time. Over in the Irish Sea was a little flying outfit called Manx airlines. Run with all the sovereign pride that such an island could muster. I'm sure it was a very good outfit to work for.
During that decade that 'little' Manx airlines became rather large as it was handed all these Highlands and Islands routes (and ATP hulls). It was initially known as British Regional Airlines and later became BACX.
If you want to wind back the clock and whine "Where were you when our bases were closed?". Then wind it back to a time when the shoe was on the other foot!
I find your selective attention to the history of the Regions under the BA brand tiring and you come across as very bitter. Don't become a '411A' !
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RE I am not sure of the relevance of your exhortations to the point I was trying to make that the current BACC and its immediate predecessors (remember Rob Hall?...nifty bit of footwork that jumping from chair of the CC to a management position eh?.Bless him) in conjunction with Balpa are applying double standards.
I have not been around as long as you and am prepared to accept your intimate knowledge of the history of Highlands and Islands. Correct me if I am wrong as I am sure you will.....but I understood that BA looked after their boys rather well and there was some interesting career progressions from LHS ATP to LHS 744...............
By the way, BACX comprised not only Manx then BRAL but BAR and Brymon.
I have not been around as long as you and am prepared to accept your intimate knowledge of the history of Highlands and Islands. Correct me if I am wrong as I am sure you will.....but I understood that BA looked after their boys rather well and there was some interesting career progressions from LHS ATP to LHS 744...............
By the way, BACX comprised not only Manx then BRAL but BAR and Brymon.
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Actually TT, Skippers in Highlands and Islands were paid a rate that was 10% on top of a first officer in mainline. As for left hand seat ATP to any LHS in BA, there were NO grandfather rights and applications were done strictly on seniority. Quite a few of my colleagues ended up going back to the RHS on LH and quite right too!
My point is that we've all had our fair share of shafting from the fickle minded senior management within BA. The fact that your ire is aimed at the BACC, an ever changing set of individuals, some of which you correctly point out chose to move over to the other side of the table, seems petty.
Believe it or not, TT, most pilots within the UK are fed up with harsh style of management that we endure, regardless of what company we work for. Please try to forget any betrayal you feel you have and see this issue as one for the profession. We are the largest body of pilots within BALPA and for once in my career, we have a BACC who have the cahunas to be defiant to the onslaught. This is our last chance in the UK. If we fail we are all f**ked.
My point is that we've all had our fair share of shafting from the fickle minded senior management within BA. The fact that your ire is aimed at the BACC, an ever changing set of individuals, some of which you correctly point out chose to move over to the other side of the table, seems petty.
Believe it or not, TT, most pilots within the UK are fed up with harsh style of management that we endure, regardless of what company we work for. Please try to forget any betrayal you feel you have and see this issue as one for the profession. We are the largest body of pilots within BALPA and for once in my career, we have a BACC who have the cahunas to be defiant to the onslaught. This is our last chance in the UK. If we fail we are all f**ked.
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Riverboat said, "...I would like some dignity to remain in the profession..."
____________________________________________________________ _____
Unfortunately, pilots have to "join" management on their level- which is gorilla warfare.
Dignity/professionalism are fine for dealing with customers on the job, but
that's about as far as it goes.
If pilots continue w/ "dignity & professionalism" when dealing w/ management- they've won, period.
The definition of professionalism needs to evolve for pilot groups to survive.
KC135777
____________________________________________________________ _____
Unfortunately, pilots have to "join" management on their level- which is gorilla warfare.
Dignity/professionalism are fine for dealing with customers on the job, but
that's about as far as it goes.
If pilots continue w/ "dignity & professionalism" when dealing w/ management- they've won, period.
The definition of professionalism needs to evolve for pilot groups to survive.
KC135777
PPRuNe Person
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411A - you usually write common sense, and you have done in this case.
BTW, BALPA is going to re-ballot the pilots once the strike is declared legal by the High Court.
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Well said Tiny Tim - spot on!
Yes indeed, it seems there are different definitions of the 'family of BA Airlines'
So they're being handed 757s, we were handed RJs. No difference except the airplane.
Then we have:
Well, actually, I was there too. If you remember correctly, lined up alongside your Budgie at Stornoway, Lerwick, Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, Unst, Barra, Lerwick, Orkney, Shetland, Wick, Kirkwall and all the rest were Loganair SD3-60s, ATPs, Twin Otters, Islanders, 146s, and even F27s - all part of the Midland Group before, God Help us all, being sold to the "world class" BA 
Sorry, of course your budgerigar couldn't get into all those places could it? Manx were NOT handed those routes, they were LC routes, which transferred to Manx internally within the Midland group before that airline was sold to the Nigels. Seems to me Logie are still there - after BA pulled out. I suppose the existing Logies should be paying a tithe to BA for their generosity. BA historical accuracy - ILMAO!!!!!
Tinytim, don't believe a word - your recollections of the double dealing, hypocritical, self-serving methods of BACC are spot on. Thanks for the support - whae's like us - damn few, an they're all deid! (They're not working for BA anyway.)
So they're being handed 757s, we were handed RJs. No difference except the airplane.
Then we have:
I was a regional pilot in the mid 90's. BA (as Highlands and Islands) was flying lots of little routes around the North of the UK with ATP's at the time. Over in the Irish Sea was a little flying outfit called Manx airlines. Run with all the sovereign pride that such an island could muster. I'm sure it was a very good outfit to work for.
During that decade that 'little' Manx airlines became rather large as it was handed all these Highlands and Islands routes (and ATP hulls). It was initially known as British Regional Airlines and later became BACX.
If you want to wind back the clock and whine "Where were you when our bases were closed?". Then wind it back to a time when the shoe was on the other foot!
During that decade that 'little' Manx airlines became rather large as it was handed all these Highlands and Islands routes (and ATP hulls). It was initially known as British Regional Airlines and later became BACX.
If you want to wind back the clock and whine "Where were you when our bases were closed?". Then wind it back to a time when the shoe was on the other foot!
Sorry, of course your budgerigar couldn't get into all those places could it? Manx were NOT handed those routes, they were LC routes, which transferred to Manx internally within the Midland group before that airline was sold to the Nigels. Seems to me Logie are still there - after BA pulled out. I suppose the existing Logies should be paying a tithe to BA for their generosity. BA historical accuracy - ILMAO!!!!!Tinytim, don't believe a word - your recollections of the double dealing, hypocritical, self-serving methods of BACC are spot on. Thanks for the support - whae's like us - damn few, an they're all deid! (They're not working for BA anyway.)
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Do the BA pilots still fancy going on strike after the T5 Fiasco???? 
The press....the public will eat you alive.
The press....the public will eat you alive.
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Hand Solo,
True, at least you know it's going to be a VERY messy strike now.
I still support your case for doing it though and i'm bloody glad in not in your position when taking the vote!!
I'm just curious to see if this is going to affect people's on willingness to down tools.
Maybe Willie will roll over and give the BA CC what they want in fear of more chaos!
Interesting times ahead....
True, at least you know it's going to be a VERY messy strike now.
I still support your case for doing it though and i'm bloody glad in not in your position when taking the vote!!
I'm just curious to see if this is going to affect people's on willingness to down tools.
Maybe Willie will roll over and give the BA CC what they want in fear of more chaos!
Interesting times ahead....
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If anything the resolve of BA pilots has been strengthened by BAs recent actions, and the catastrophe that is T5s opening day has been predicted for some time. Perhaps this time the leadership team will see that trying to cost cut your way to a management bonus drags the corporations reputation through the mud.
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trying to cost cut your way to a management bonus drags the corporations reputation through the mud.
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Oh yeah, at AA, we're going through that right now.
"leadership team"? that's only a concept that SOMETIMES gets lip service.
Currently MIA......or AWOL.
KC135777
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Oh yeah, at AA, we're going through that right now.
"leadership team"? that's only a concept that SOMETIMES gets lip service.
Currently MIA......or AWOL.
KC135777
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Gentlemen,
I feel your anger but I believe you are pointing the finger at the wrong group.
The bottom line is the BACC have the FULL support of BALPA HQ - it's very easy to be all brave and stand up to management when you have the union standing right behind you and a top QC standing behind him.
Those BA pilots that feel other pilot groups have done badly in the negotiating department have not experienced the dark side of the moon.
-
The side where your screaming out for help, form a CC, increase the BALPA membership, get recognition etc etc...........only to have the chairman of BALPA look you in the eye and say "we don't do strikes"
As the BA pilots will now tell you - without the threat of strikes you are wasting your time.
What he really meant was "we don't do strikes unless we're being threatened with the same terms and conditions as you have now.....then we come out all guns blazing"
I feel your anger but I believe you are pointing the finger at the wrong group.
The bottom line is the BACC have the FULL support of BALPA HQ - it's very easy to be all brave and stand up to management when you have the union standing right behind you and a top QC standing behind him.
Those BA pilots that feel other pilot groups have done badly in the negotiating department have not experienced the dark side of the moon.
- The side where your screaming out for help, form a CC, increase the BALPA membership, get recognition etc etc...........only to have the chairman of BALPA look you in the eye and say "we don't do strikes"
As the BA pilots will now tell you - without the threat of strikes you are wasting your time.
What he really meant was "we don't do strikes unless we're being threatened with the same terms and conditions as you have now.....then we come out all guns blazing"
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@NoIffsOrButs,
Altruism and the interest of the profession is not featured in the mindset of any pilot body anywhere in the UK. We all fend for ourselves. Inherent nature of the beast, and the One flaw of all of us that Management uses time and time again to get one over.
But can we make one thing absolutely clear: during the last election for the BACC there was a landslide seismic shift in who runs the council.
A lot of fresh faces came into it and I think you will find that the confidence in what the CC is doing and how it's been done has increased tenfold.
We now are being LEAD. Something that BA desperately could learn from. Not necessarily in charismatic leadership but by disemmination of information. The one thing we pilots always yearn for.
I still dont accept the simplistic view of the BACC and BA riding roughshod. If you dig deep in the archives (like I've done and so could you) , you'll find plenty of guys that were BACX direct entry that where pretty disgusted about their one pilot body and CC and not necessarily pointing the finger at just 'us'. The lack of support and flexing it was genuinely not there it seemed.
I will accept that mistakes have been made and 'self interest' prevailed from 'our' part.
The end game and a lesson to be learnt for the future is that outsourcing will always lead to a lot of strife, the one thing upper management loves. It doesn't matter what company you fly for.
Altruism and the interest of the profession is not featured in the mindset of any pilot body anywhere in the UK. We all fend for ourselves. Inherent nature of the beast, and the One flaw of all of us that Management uses time and time again to get one over.
But can we make one thing absolutely clear: during the last election for the BACC there was a landslide seismic shift in who runs the council.
A lot of fresh faces came into it and I think you will find that the confidence in what the CC is doing and how it's been done has increased tenfold.
We now are being LEAD. Something that BA desperately could learn from. Not necessarily in charismatic leadership but by disemmination of information. The one thing we pilots always yearn for.
I still dont accept the simplistic view of the BACC and BA riding roughshod. If you dig deep in the archives (like I've done and so could you) , you'll find plenty of guys that were BACX direct entry that where pretty disgusted about their one pilot body and CC and not necessarily pointing the finger at just 'us'. The lack of support and flexing it was genuinely not there it seemed.
I will accept that mistakes have been made and 'self interest' prevailed from 'our' part.
The end game and a lesson to be learnt for the future is that outsourcing will always lead to a lot of strife, the one thing upper management loves. It doesn't matter what company you fly for.