BALPA and BA talks breakdown
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 47
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
I've just read http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/getat...rways-Q-A.aspx
Does anyone know why BALPA gave up the previous schedule K, which didn't have any geographical limitation ?
Stephen
I've just read http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/getat...rways-Q-A.aspx
Does anyone know why BALPA gave up the previous schedule K, which didn't have any geographical limitation ?
Stephen
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Age: 18
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trojan Horse?
Back to the potential threat of "Open Lies", the article below on the future expansion plans for "Jetstar" is illuminating. The morphing of this "low cost local carrier" into a fully fledged international one in competition with others ,including with and no doubt at the expense of Qantas, is only a matter of time and slightly delayed due to late delivery of 787s. It even appears that some of the 787s ostensibly ordered for Qantas could end up with Jetstar!?The message could not be clearer?
http://business.smh.com.au/dreamline...0321-20we.html
http://business.smh.com.au/dreamline...0321-20we.html
Controversial, moi?
Does anyone know why BALPA gave up the previous schedule K, which didn't have any geographical limitation ?
The intent of Schedule K is being ignored and Schedule K is no longer fit for purpose with the new regulatory environment. That is the nub of this dispute.
(Edited for typo.)
Last edited by M.Mouse; 22nd Mar 2008 at 17:39.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
900,
Thanks for the reply. Having previously held most of your posts in high regards as just another point of view, it's now obvious to me that you don't know much about our line of work and don't want to have the foresight that we are displaying in this case.
The OS guys will have their own Company Council, backed up by BALPA.
If OS becomes very profitable and succesful of course they shall seek improvements to their T&C's, who in their right mind wouldn't?!
But to think that there is a push to mainline t&c's and making the business non-viable is a laughable supposition.
We have taken the COST argument out of the equation and still the company doesn't want to enter meaningful negotiations with us.
But we CAN buy into OS if only we hand back a couple of the top24 Paypoints back.
So it's ALL about money once again.
After making record profits this year, achieving a 10% operating margin and hopefully dividence, the company seems hell bent on another season of chaos all born from within.
Sick of it. Apologies to all our customers, but with foresight, this is a fight we cannot afford to lose.
Thanks for the reply. Having previously held most of your posts in high regards as just another point of view, it's now obvious to me that you don't know much about our line of work and don't want to have the foresight that we are displaying in this case.
The OS guys will have their own Company Council, backed up by BALPA.
If OS becomes very profitable and succesful of course they shall seek improvements to their T&C's, who in their right mind wouldn't?!
But to think that there is a push to mainline t&c's and making the business non-viable is a laughable supposition.
We have taken the COST argument out of the equation and still the company doesn't want to enter meaningful negotiations with us.
But we CAN buy into OS if only we hand back a couple of the top24 Paypoints back.
So it's ALL about money once again.
After making record profits this year, achieving a 10% operating margin and hopefully dividence, the company seems hell bent on another season of chaos all born from within.
Sick of it. Apologies to all our customers, but with foresight, this is a fight we cannot afford to lose.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MIAMI
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been there done that..
Been There Done That...
Im trying to understand these concerns regarding Open Skies with BALPA. It seems like this should be a fairly easy situation to resolve amicably if done properly. BA is looking to expand a new cost effective service to protect it's market share with competitors such as Eos, Silver Jet and L'Avion chipping away at it's LHR and CDG marketshares. BALPA seems concerned about the company taking jobs from the core company pilots and future jobs as well as pay security on flights with over 100 seats. It seems that this could be easily resolved with a simple written agreement or an ammendment to the current BALPA union contract. The ammendment would state that no current mainline flights can ever be downsized in order to be outsourced into open Skies. That all flights with over 100 seats must always be staffed with BA mainline pilots. Open Skies would be allowed to fly new route authority expansion flights only and they must be on aircraft with less than 100 seats.
This seems like a very viable, fair and reasonable solution for both sides. BALPA wanting anything more than this just makes them seem territorial, greedy and obstructive to the companies future business growth and long term survival in an increasingly more costly and competitive marketplace with skyrocketing jet fuel prices. The public will see it this way too which will hurt their cause in gaining any public sympathy or support. Would an agreement of this nature not be acceptable or are there other issues the public is not aware of in the negotiations to avert this pending, costly and potentially irreparable strike ?
Coming from a former employee of a major trunk carrier in America known as Eastern Airlines. I have lived through my airline going through this type of strike in the past. It was like shooting ones self in the foot. Between dealing with all the corporate greed and the corrupt union officials with self destructive agendas who would rather destroy a historic loved company just to win their cause at any cost. Neither side had our best interests at heart. It was nothing more than a bully, push and shoving contest. Yet, in the end when there is no airline left and no more jobs when the dust all settled. Then it was we the employees who were left holding the bag feeling quite penny wise and pound foolish for listening to our union leadership. We listened to our union leaders in this regard about the strike and now our airline doesnt exist anymore ! Take it from one who has taken the union strike stance in the past and we lost our company as well as our way of life in the process. It is not a very good feeling at all. Something to think long and hard about for sure especially in this economy where quality replacement airline jobs are very hard to come by. It may not be worth winning the battle when you lose the war in the end with everyone on the unemployment line.
Im trying to understand these concerns regarding Open Skies with BALPA. It seems like this should be a fairly easy situation to resolve amicably if done properly. BA is looking to expand a new cost effective service to protect it's market share with competitors such as Eos, Silver Jet and L'Avion chipping away at it's LHR and CDG marketshares. BALPA seems concerned about the company taking jobs from the core company pilots and future jobs as well as pay security on flights with over 100 seats. It seems that this could be easily resolved with a simple written agreement or an ammendment to the current BALPA union contract. The ammendment would state that no current mainline flights can ever be downsized in order to be outsourced into open Skies. That all flights with over 100 seats must always be staffed with BA mainline pilots. Open Skies would be allowed to fly new route authority expansion flights only and they must be on aircraft with less than 100 seats.
This seems like a very viable, fair and reasonable solution for both sides. BALPA wanting anything more than this just makes them seem territorial, greedy and obstructive to the companies future business growth and long term survival in an increasingly more costly and competitive marketplace with skyrocketing jet fuel prices. The public will see it this way too which will hurt their cause in gaining any public sympathy or support. Would an agreement of this nature not be acceptable or are there other issues the public is not aware of in the negotiations to avert this pending, costly and potentially irreparable strike ?
Coming from a former employee of a major trunk carrier in America known as Eastern Airlines. I have lived through my airline going through this type of strike in the past. It was like shooting ones self in the foot. Between dealing with all the corporate greed and the corrupt union officials with self destructive agendas who would rather destroy a historic loved company just to win their cause at any cost. Neither side had our best interests at heart. It was nothing more than a bully, push and shoving contest. Yet, in the end when there is no airline left and no more jobs when the dust all settled. Then it was we the employees who were left holding the bag feeling quite penny wise and pound foolish for listening to our union leadership. We listened to our union leaders in this regard about the strike and now our airline doesnt exist anymore ! Take it from one who has taken the union strike stance in the past and we lost our company as well as our way of life in the process. It is not a very good feeling at all. Something to think long and hard about for sure especially in this economy where quality replacement airline jobs are very hard to come by. It may not be worth winning the battle when you lose the war in the end with everyone on the unemployment line.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WORLDTRAVELLERFLA as a former EA pilot I do not doubt that you suffered more than most. I fully accept that the demise of EA was a disaster for all concerned. However - and I absolutely agree in advance that I am not an expert - was it not the case that the failure of EA was due, in essence, to the machinists union being unwilling to accept the conditions being imposed by the owner (Frank Lorenzo)? The latter figure was a "venture capitalist" and specialist in asset stripping and I think it is fair to say that the word "compromise" or the expression "win-win situation" did not appear in his vocabulary. Indeed was he not subsequently found to be an "unfit" person to run another airline?
You paint a completely different picture and use it to imply that BA pilots are being unreasonable. While I am not a BA pilot, I have no doubt that they are facing an enormous challenge and that there is grave danger to the quality of their employment in the medium to long term. For that reason I support their action and I applaud their willingness to face the challenge head on.
I also am unaware of EA ever having a similar situation to that faced by the BA pilots (perhaps you could clarify this if you reply). You might also care to clarify what you mean when you refer to "corrupt union officials".
Finally, might it not be the case that the quality airline jobs to which you refer are only there because somebody was willing to defend them when the time came?
You paint a completely different picture and use it to imply that BA pilots are being unreasonable. While I am not a BA pilot, I have no doubt that they are facing an enormous challenge and that there is grave danger to the quality of their employment in the medium to long term. For that reason I support their action and I applaud their willingness to face the challenge head on.
I also am unaware of EA ever having a similar situation to that faced by the BA pilots (perhaps you could clarify this if you reply). You might also care to clarify what you mean when you refer to "corrupt union officials".
Finally, might it not be the case that the quality airline jobs to which you refer are only there because somebody was willing to defend them when the time came?
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MIAMI
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Today's Current Airline Economics
Hi Atse,
There are differences as well as similarities in any strike. Yet, the main thing that has changed dramatically is the economics of our industry now versus how it was back in the 80's. Increased competition, massive downsizing, cutbacks and fuel prices are at an all time high. I do not claim to know your industry or position better than you do. I just hope that you are giving your rank and file the full picture of what they have at risk. Since the risk is extremely high to go on strike just over some hypotheticals right now with so many airlines going belly up. It just seems like a very risky proposition. I wouldnt want to be in your shoes having to make this decision regarding ones income, family, and livelyhoods future in such an unstable airline economy.
As far as corrupt. We were advised one thing and the other occured. Pensions were lost, families were ruined, homes foreclosed and the top rank and file of the union as well as corporate management all had nicely planned escape clauses and golden parachutes. The average guy on the line was basically told at midnite on Jan 1991 that we no longer had jobs stranded around the world depending on the charity of other airlines to get us home. I wouldnt wish that scenario on any airline employee or their families if it could be resolved through diplomacy and negotiations.
There are differences as well as similarities in any strike. Yet, the main thing that has changed dramatically is the economics of our industry now versus how it was back in the 80's. Increased competition, massive downsizing, cutbacks and fuel prices are at an all time high. I do not claim to know your industry or position better than you do. I just hope that you are giving your rank and file the full picture of what they have at risk. Since the risk is extremely high to go on strike just over some hypotheticals right now with so many airlines going belly up. It just seems like a very risky proposition. I wouldnt want to be in your shoes having to make this decision regarding ones income, family, and livelyhoods future in such an unstable airline economy.
As far as corrupt. We were advised one thing and the other occured. Pensions were lost, families were ruined, homes foreclosed and the top rank and file of the union as well as corporate management all had nicely planned escape clauses and golden parachutes. The average guy on the line was basically told at midnite on Jan 1991 that we no longer had jobs stranded around the world depending on the charity of other airlines to get us home. I wouldnt wish that scenario on any airline employee or their families if it could be resolved through diplomacy and negotiations.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WTF I take your point but can you predict what would have happened if you had not taken any action. Would it have been the same outcome?
900
I agree with Shaka Kula. I would expect the OSCC to push for a fair wage. Pilots are highly trained and very marketable. Airlines trust their pilots to protect the company's cash cows as they fly around the globe. I think we deserve respect and fair reward for that. If you don't value our custody feel free to outsource our know-how for short term gain, perhaps fly our pax by remote control if you like. If a 747/757 etc. goes down, the company goes down. Quite a responsibility which exceeds the budget portfolio of most managers. The OSCC won't be tied by article 43, it can be a straight forward labour dispute. This is what the BACC are referring to and with those T&C's it won't be far away, especially when the tax situation becomes apparent for those hopeful of non-res status.
900
BACC has already said that it would expect the "gap" to be closed or "share the growth" when O/S hit profitability, which is odd since they also say they will be hands off.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: It wasn't me, I wasn't there, wrong country ;-)
Age: 79
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
World traveller
Stay out if you aren't involved as an employee affected! As a not BA pilot I can say, stay away or decide to become educated in this situation.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MIAMI
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just the facts please
Hi Merlinxx,
We are all in this industry together. What effects one of us effects us all one way or the other. Last time I checked this was an open forum to exchange ideas and educate one another. If you have an intelligent point of view based on facts then I would enjoy hearing it. By taking the just stay away bully mindset only validates my opinion of most airline union leadership in the past. Just follow us and dont ask questions. Ive seen first hand how that turned out before. When a person isnt open to discuss the facts then that says alot right there. Lots of travelers and airline employees inside and outside BA visit and read this forum regularly. This gives you the opportunity to state why you feel strongly about your position and let people ask questions.
That is how you educate and win public opinion as well as their support for your cause. Just acting like a bully doesnt get you anywhere. Just makes you look confrontational and foolish as if you have something to hide. If you have nothing to hide then you should welcome questions and verbal exchanges to make your point to others who may not understand your taken position. I have been reading both sides of this from the very begining and I have yet to see the specific positons as to what the strike vote is for other than protectionism of the BALPA organization. I have not seen any real valid facts regarding job security loss other than hypothetical situations. I would be very interested in hearing the facts behind your position and what your main concerns are based on.
We are all in this industry together. What effects one of us effects us all one way or the other. Last time I checked this was an open forum to exchange ideas and educate one another. If you have an intelligent point of view based on facts then I would enjoy hearing it. By taking the just stay away bully mindset only validates my opinion of most airline union leadership in the past. Just follow us and dont ask questions. Ive seen first hand how that turned out before. When a person isnt open to discuss the facts then that says alot right there. Lots of travelers and airline employees inside and outside BA visit and read this forum regularly. This gives you the opportunity to state why you feel strongly about your position and let people ask questions.
That is how you educate and win public opinion as well as their support for your cause. Just acting like a bully doesnt get you anywhere. Just makes you look confrontational and foolish as if you have something to hide. If you have nothing to hide then you should welcome questions and verbal exchanges to make your point to others who may not understand your taken position. I have been reading both sides of this from the very begining and I have yet to see the specific positons as to what the strike vote is for other than protectionism of the BALPA organization. I have not seen any real valid facts regarding job security loss other than hypothetical situations. I would be very interested in hearing the facts behind your position and what your main concerns are based on.
Last edited by WORLDTRAVELERFLA; 23rd Mar 2008 at 20:44.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MIAMI
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taking action or not...
Hi Flying Tom,
It will never be known since we were not given that choice.. Ours was but a domino effect of sympathy strikes originating with our machinist and baggage handlers. ALPA Pilots went out in support of the IAM and TWU Flight Attendants went out in support of our pilots. Long story short we never financially recovered and it destroyed us. The union promised us we were too strong, that we had been in business 66 years and we werent going anywhere. Well, that was not the case. It all disappeared in the blink of an eye one winter in Jan of 1991. American Airlines came in like a vulture and picked the airline clean in no time at fire sale prices.
It will never be known since we were not given that choice.. Ours was but a domino effect of sympathy strikes originating with our machinist and baggage handlers. ALPA Pilots went out in support of the IAM and TWU Flight Attendants went out in support of our pilots. Long story short we never financially recovered and it destroyed us. The union promised us we were too strong, that we had been in business 66 years and we werent going anywhere. Well, that was not the case. It all disappeared in the blink of an eye one winter in Jan of 1991. American Airlines came in like a vulture and picked the airline clean in no time at fire sale prices.
Last edited by WORLDTRAVELERFLA; 23rd Mar 2008 at 20:54.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 47
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi WORLDTRAVELERFLA ,
I want to thank you for your succinct summary. It certainly gives me a good understanding of the situation.
If I paid my union dues, I would want to know why BALPA allowed a new schedule K to have geographical limits. I know they were different times, but their lack of foresight is unforgivable.
Stephen
I want to thank you for your succinct summary. It certainly gives me a good understanding of the situation.
If I paid my union dues, I would want to know why BALPA allowed a new schedule K to have geographical limits. I know they were different times, but their lack of foresight is unforgivable.
Stephen
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WTF
Sorry to hear the facts, it's always good to hear advice from someone who has actually seen action. I don't think either side comes out of IA triumphant.
Also with BA's share price in spiral dive AA could repeat history with us!
The BACC aren't taking us blindly into action. All the usual posturing has been exhausted, the threat is real, BA won't back down until it starts to bleed profusely. Support is currently strengthening on every BA syllable. BASSA, the cc union, is likely to come on line soon, with their own issues but to include OpenLies now.
BA will have to have a very clear vision to justify frittering 10 years of OL profit on a strike. Remember they do not take risks.
I don't want to go looking for another job but if circumstances dictate I am not frozen with fear over the thought. Something will come up, it has in the past, it will in the future. I know I am marketable, I have faced a similar situation before when I was in a much weaker situation. I also flew with a 49'er and they've done just fine. I am not prepared to prostitute myself for one of the Worlds richest airlines, despite my pprune handle, I had to do that to get here! That's why I so strongly support pilot unions, if you don't stick firmly together the leaders of this industry will abuse you for their gain.
I have absolutely no worries over the motives of the BACC.
Sorry to hear the facts, it's always good to hear advice from someone who has actually seen action. I don't think either side comes out of IA triumphant.
Also with BA's share price in spiral dive AA could repeat history with us!
The BACC aren't taking us blindly into action. All the usual posturing has been exhausted, the threat is real, BA won't back down until it starts to bleed profusely. Support is currently strengthening on every BA syllable. BASSA, the cc union, is likely to come on line soon, with their own issues but to include OpenLies now.
BA will have to have a very clear vision to justify frittering 10 years of OL profit on a strike. Remember they do not take risks.
I don't want to go looking for another job but if circumstances dictate I am not frozen with fear over the thought. Something will come up, it has in the past, it will in the future. I know I am marketable, I have faced a similar situation before when I was in a much weaker situation. I also flew with a 49'er and they've done just fine. I am not prepared to prostitute myself for one of the Worlds richest airlines, despite my pprune handle, I had to do that to get here! That's why I so strongly support pilot unions, if you don't stick firmly together the leaders of this industry will abuse you for their gain.
I have absolutely no worries over the motives of the BACC.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Open Skies would be allowed to fly new route authority expansion flights only and they must be on aircraft with less than 100 seats.
This seems like a very viable, fair and reasonable solution for both sides. BALPA wanting anything more than this just makes them seem territorial, greedy and obstructive to the companies future business growth and long term survival in an increasingly more costly and competitive marketplace with skyrocketing jet fuel prices. The public will see it this way too which will hurt their cause in gaining any public sympathy or support. Would an agreement of this nature not be acceptable or are there other issues the public is not aware of in the negotiations to avert this pending, costly and potentially irreparable strike ?
This seems like a very viable, fair and reasonable solution for both sides. BALPA wanting anything more than this just makes them seem territorial, greedy and obstructive to the companies future business growth and long term survival in an increasingly more costly and competitive marketplace with skyrocketing jet fuel prices. The public will see it this way too which will hurt their cause in gaining any public sympathy or support. Would an agreement of this nature not be acceptable or are there other issues the public is not aware of in the negotiations to avert this pending, costly and potentially irreparable strike ?
BALPA is unlikely to get it total what they want, only a very small slice of the pie.
Like it or lump it.
One also must ask...why not just actually go on strike instead of just frothing at the mouth?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BASSA, the cc union, is likely to come on line soon, with their own issues but to include OpenLies now.
BALPA obviously have a point ref Openskies and sched K and the action they are taking, do Cabin crew have any such agreements over who can and can't operate on BA aircraft?
I would say that BA is even more inclined to shut the door over openskies with BASSA as I am sure they don't want any Mainline crew agreements seeping in to Openskies.
On another point aren't OS cabin crew being recruited from the USA? Why aren't BA doing this with pilots, as surely that would reduce BALPA's argument as mainline pilots would not be able to work in the US so easily as in the EU??
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why aren't BA doing this with pilots, as surely that would reduce BALPA's argument as mainline pilots would not be able to work in the US so easily as in the EU??
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been lurking on here for a while. Reason being I applied to OpenSkies last month for cabin crew.
I'm a flight attendant in the US and while not a active union member had to join AFA over here as it's a closed shop.
My understanding albiet limited is that they are recruiting over here as logistically it's more straighforward to have cabin crew in one base as opposed to all over the EU or having to reposition them all the time and to save on costs as US crews are paid less. Sort of like the India bases they have already.
Does BASSA have an official statement on OpenSkies anywhere? Much as I'd love to do the sort of flying they offer which would take me about 20 years here thanks to the reserve system, I'll withdraw my application if they are going to strike. There is no way in hell I'd cross any picket line or upset the very fine people at BA. Could it realistically be crewed by existing BA cabin crew?
One thing I don't get is how come CitiFlyer is ok and the cabin crew aren't on the master list and they're going to be flying London- NYC? I did search this site but couldn't find the answer.
I'm a flight attendant in the US and while not a active union member had to join AFA over here as it's a closed shop.
My understanding albiet limited is that they are recruiting over here as logistically it's more straighforward to have cabin crew in one base as opposed to all over the EU or having to reposition them all the time and to save on costs as US crews are paid less. Sort of like the India bases they have already.
Does BASSA have an official statement on OpenSkies anywhere? Much as I'd love to do the sort of flying they offer which would take me about 20 years here thanks to the reserve system, I'll withdraw my application if they are going to strike. There is no way in hell I'd cross any picket line or upset the very fine people at BA. Could it realistically be crewed by existing BA cabin crew?
One thing I don't get is how come CitiFlyer is ok and the cabin crew aren't on the master list and they're going to be flying London- NYC? I did search this site but couldn't find the answer.