BALPA and BA talks breakdown
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The news that BAA are in talks to sell off its Duty Free business may not at first glance appear germain to this thread, but stick with me for a moment.
Tritely, the world is changing (what's new?) but fighting to protect something against a bigger tide of change could be wasted effort. Look at some other factors. The UK Govt has deregulated price controls at a major airport recently; will that be the last one?
The European Commission now leads on Air Service agreement talks, not the Govt.
Rumour has it Gatwick is being readied by Ferrovail for sale.
Air Quality targets are unreachable around LHR now, let alone with growth.
Yes, I think WW is wrong to move in a divisive way and he will not survive the encounter, but a previous poster's encouragement to BALPA to make all efforts to keep talking is sound. And to give a small bit whilst looking over the horizon towards The Future Size and Shape of the market.
Flight Engineers were the victim of technology. Airbus are developing systems that will continue to put the crew further from direct control and more towards collaborative decision makers with the a/c's computers.
I think in a number of years time we all will look back on the period from the 1980's to the 1st quarter of this C as "Golden" in terms of wealth creation.
So in conclusion, yes stay strong - don't let the b**g*rs grind..etc but think about giving the golden goose a tweeked beak as opposed to killing it.
I've got a broad back but if you could form an orderly queue Gentlemen!
Sir George Cayley
Tritely, the world is changing (what's new?) but fighting to protect something against a bigger tide of change could be wasted effort. Look at some other factors. The UK Govt has deregulated price controls at a major airport recently; will that be the last one?
The European Commission now leads on Air Service agreement talks, not the Govt.
Rumour has it Gatwick is being readied by Ferrovail for sale.
Air Quality targets are unreachable around LHR now, let alone with growth.
Yes, I think WW is wrong to move in a divisive way and he will not survive the encounter, but a previous poster's encouragement to BALPA to make all efforts to keep talking is sound. And to give a small bit whilst looking over the horizon towards The Future Size and Shape of the market.
Flight Engineers were the victim of technology. Airbus are developing systems that will continue to put the crew further from direct control and more towards collaborative decision makers with the a/c's computers.
I think in a number of years time we all will look back on the period from the 1980's to the 1st quarter of this C as "Golden" in terms of wealth creation.
So in conclusion, yes stay strong - don't let the b**g*rs grind..etc but think about giving the golden goose a tweeked beak as opposed to killing it.
I've got a broad back but if you could form an orderly queue Gentlemen!
Sir George Cayley
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BBB
BALPA (and their QC) went to chambers yesterday for a ruling about the validity or otherwise of BA's injunction claim.
The judge will look into it. In the meantime the strike ballot period of validity to commence strike action has had the clock stopped on it. This will effectively take out the easter weekend for strike action, hence the comments. When the judge delivers his verdict, the clock will start again.
BALPA (and their QC) went to chambers yesterday for a ruling about the validity or otherwise of BA's injunction claim.
The judge will look into it. In the meantime the strike ballot period of validity to commence strike action has had the clock stopped on it. This will effectively take out the easter weekend for strike action, hence the comments. When the judge delivers his verdict, the clock will start again.
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Hmm.
I'm flying 26th March so I guess that still leaves me in the firing line.
Rather expedient of Balpa to use a legal delay as a public relations tool though - "our row is not with the travelling public who will have worked hard for their Easter break" etc etc
I'm flying 26th March so I guess that still leaves me in the firing line.
Rather expedient of Balpa to use a legal delay as a public relations tool though - "our row is not with the travelling public who will have worked hard for their Easter break" etc etc
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Thanks HF
Here is the BALPA press release from balpa.org:
Media & Press • Tuesday, March 11, 2008 NEWS from BALPA
British Airline Pilots’ Association
11th March 2008
NO PILOTS’ STRIKE OVER EASTER
The British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) has confirmed that there will be no disruption to the public over Easter. Jim McAuslan, BALPA General Secretary said ‘our row is not with the travelling public who will have worked hard for their Easter break.’
The threat of disruption has arisen because BA plans to start a new service flying passengers from mainland European capitals to the USA. The service, called OpenSkies, is using BA money, will use BA planes with BA support and is being overseen by senior BA managers but will not use BA pilots.
'Despite BALPA’s willingness to accept the cost base proposed by BA for OpenSkies, the company has not been prepared to provide the employment security and career development opportunities which are at the heart of the dispute. Our pilots are fighting for their futures and the wellbeing of their families.'
'Pilots have contributed to the success of BA for years. Now they are told their work is to be outsourced jeopardising jobs and careers. These are legitimate and reasonable concerns that the company has not been prepared to address.
British Airways encouraged their pilots to participate in the strike ballot believing that this would dilute the final vote. Their campaign backfired with 86% of BA's pilots voting for strike action on a huge 90% poll. This would be the first strike of BA pilots for 30 years.’
British Airways is now claiming that BA pilots cannot legally pursue their job security concerns because of a piece of European legislation. Jim McAuslan added ‘British Airways should be at the negotiating table and not using European legislation designed to ensure free competition between companies and not to restrict the freedoms of Trade Unions in industrial disputes. We have sought to place this matter before the courts ourselves in order to resolve the question as quickly as possible. This is an unprecedented move by a union and demonstrates the responsible way in which BALPA has approached this.’
Footnote:
BA is asserting it has a fundamental right under Article 43 of the EC Treaty (“Article 43 EC”) to establish operations in another EU Member State. This right includes both establishing new airline services in other EU Member States, as well as acquiring existing operations from third parties. BALPA is seeking a Declaration from the Court as to whether Article 43 does apply and whether it may rely on the strike ballot to avoid a claim for unlimited damages.
British Airline Pilots’ Association
11th March 2008
NO PILOTS’ STRIKE OVER EASTER
The British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) has confirmed that there will be no disruption to the public over Easter. Jim McAuslan, BALPA General Secretary said ‘our row is not with the travelling public who will have worked hard for their Easter break.’
The threat of disruption has arisen because BA plans to start a new service flying passengers from mainland European capitals to the USA. The service, called OpenSkies, is using BA money, will use BA planes with BA support and is being overseen by senior BA managers but will not use BA pilots.
'Despite BALPA’s willingness to accept the cost base proposed by BA for OpenSkies, the company has not been prepared to provide the employment security and career development opportunities which are at the heart of the dispute. Our pilots are fighting for their futures and the wellbeing of their families.''Pilots have contributed to the success of BA for years. Now they are told their work is to be outsourced jeopardising jobs and careers. These are legitimate and reasonable concerns that the company has not been prepared to address.
British Airways encouraged their pilots to participate in the strike ballot believing that this would dilute the final vote. Their campaign backfired with 86% of BA's pilots voting for strike action on a huge 90% poll. This would be the first strike of BA pilots for 30 years.’
British Airways is now claiming that BA pilots cannot legally pursue their job security concerns because of a piece of European legislation. Jim McAuslan added ‘British Airways should be at the negotiating table and not using European legislation designed to ensure free competition between companies and not to restrict the freedoms of Trade Unions in industrial disputes. We have sought to place this matter before the courts ourselves in order to resolve the question as quickly as possible. This is an unprecedented move by a union and demonstrates the responsible way in which BALPA has approached this.’
Footnote:
BA is asserting it has a fundamental right under Article 43 of the EC Treaty (“Article 43 EC”) to establish operations in another EU Member State. This right includes both establishing new airline services in other EU Member States, as well as acquiring existing operations from third parties. BALPA is seeking a Declaration from the Court as to whether Article 43 does apply and whether it may rely on the strike ballot to avoid a claim for unlimited damages.
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Am still a little confused -
Today is 11th March - 'Easter Weekend' is 21st-24th March.
My understanding is Balpa has legally to provide 7 days notice of strike action.
Therefore a strike could still have been called for 'Easter' up 'til March 17th.
However - the 'strike within 30 days' rule meant (I believe) that a strike must be announced by March 13th.
So what is the situation now?
If the 'strike ballot period of validity to commence strike action has had the clock stopped on it' then theoretically a strike could still be called as soon as Judge John Deed rules on BA's claim.
Is there any word on how long the ruling might take?
Today is 11th March - 'Easter Weekend' is 21st-24th March.
My understanding is Balpa has legally to provide 7 days notice of strike action.
Therefore a strike could still have been called for 'Easter' up 'til March 17th.
However - the 'strike within 30 days' rule meant (I believe) that a strike must be announced by March 13th.
So what is the situation now?
If the 'strike ballot period of validity to commence strike action has had the clock stopped on it' then theoretically a strike could still be called as soon as Judge John Deed rules on BA's claim.
Is there any word on how long the ruling might take?
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Sympathy from a traveller
Not in the aviation industry myself (although my daughter flies for BA!), my sympathy with the BA pilots is because of another industry decline (the UK Shipping industry). In the 70's the oil majors decided to outsource the shipping of oil to flags of convenience knowing lower standards equalled lower costs. Not much of a UK shipping industry left after that escapade !
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Not just over Easter, CH4 News have just quoted BALPA as saying BA pilots will not strike, period!
All this talk of action, a puny result.
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Oh come on 411A.....get down off the fence
I now deserve one of these
Our BA flight on March 20 now seems likely to go. Yes ..........we have worked hard for our Easter break
Not sure if we'll get back home though.....oh well
Cross that bridge.....
I now deserve one of these
Our BA flight on March 20 now seems likely to go. Yes ..........we have worked hard for our Easter break
Not sure if we'll get back home though.....oh well
Cross that bridge.....
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A bit harsh 411A !
As someone who posted here in opposition of strike action, both for my personal travel reasons and my underlying belief that it gets nobody antwhere in the long term, I feel I should return to the thread. Although I am not totally out of the woods as we fly home on the 27th so could still technically get delayed.
Regardless of whatever spin each side will put on this latest move it is good to see some clear daylight between the two factions. Space to manoeuvre is good.
Now its BA turn to make a positive gesture. Disguise it in anyway you wish to save some face. After all the pilots have played a good PR card with the public and put you in the Mr Nasty chair in the publics eyes.
Yes BALPA may only have temporarily lifted the threat due to a need to clarify relative legal positions but it is a chance for both sides to get this dispute back to the basics. Both sides would benefit from avoiding the stagnant mire of European legislation.
IMHO the pilots should continue to hold the strike card at the ready. It will do as much to put the public off of flying with BA as an all out strike would do. ( so there is a partial about turn by me as well)
As someone who posted here in opposition of strike action, both for my personal travel reasons and my underlying belief that it gets nobody antwhere in the long term, I feel I should return to the thread. Although I am not totally out of the woods as we fly home on the 27th so could still technically get delayed.
Regardless of whatever spin each side will put on this latest move it is good to see some clear daylight between the two factions. Space to manoeuvre is good.
Now its BA turn to make a positive gesture. Disguise it in anyway you wish to save some face. After all the pilots have played a good PR card with the public and put you in the Mr Nasty chair in the publics eyes.
Yes BALPA may only have temporarily lifted the threat due to a need to clarify relative legal positions but it is a chance for both sides to get this dispute back to the basics. Both sides would benefit from avoiding the stagnant mire of European legislation.
IMHO the pilots should continue to hold the strike card at the ready. It will do as much to put the public off of flying with BA as an all out strike would do. ( so there is a partial about turn by me as well)
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Vino
I agree - the headlong momentum to Strike has been halted, albeit by a technicality.
But as I read (on the Guardian site) that the high court is expected to rule within days, this may be just a brief window to take stock.
Something new on the table from BA...a willingness to compromise from Balpa...this thing could still be sorted out.
I agree - the headlong momentum to Strike has been halted, albeit by a technicality.
But as I read (on the Guardian site) that the high court is expected to rule within days, this may be just a brief window to take stock.
Something new on the table from BA...a willingness to compromise from Balpa...this thing could still be sorted out.
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Will the recruitment ban remain in force?
Not that it will matter to the motley crew of charter drop out, eurotrash and general company hoppers (i wonder why) that it seems to have attracted.
It will be amusing to watch this gang of pikies interact with the BA managers. Just ask any charter manager about some of the chracters.
I wait with glee for the reaction of the mercenary f/os whn the BA people keep them on the right seat and hire direct to the left.
Just like some of the other recent starups that are not all they seemed to be it will turn into another company they (the pikey recruits)leave. You see its never their fault. Or it will be an ryr type of enviroment.
As you can see there are many words besides the S word to label this strata of pilot
Not that it will matter to the motley crew of charter drop out, eurotrash and general company hoppers (i wonder why) that it seems to have attracted.
It will be amusing to watch this gang of pikies interact with the BA managers. Just ask any charter manager about some of the chracters.
I wait with glee for the reaction of the mercenary f/os whn the BA people keep them on the right seat and hire direct to the left.
Just like some of the other recent starups that are not all they seemed to be it will turn into another company they (the pikey recruits)leave. You see its never their fault. Or it will be an ryr type of enviroment.
As you can see there are many words besides the S word to label this strata of pilot
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IFALPA international Recruitment BAN remains in force.
Do you really want to apply for an be employed by a company that every major pilot union has blacklisted.
'Pikeys' really is a good moniker.
Do you really want to apply for an be employed by a company that every major pilot union has blacklisted.
'Pikeys' really is a good moniker.
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Very quiet on this thread. Not many posts by BA pilots.
Perhaps they have all gone to the BA forum?
Come on guys although this could be seen as a temporary set back whilst legal positions are clarified it is also a relevant discussion point and a good opportunity to get us fare paying passengers back on your side. BALPA have made good use of the situation by declaring no strike over Easter. Now the use of an EC Treaty by BA to force their position could also be used to your public relations advantage. The subject of EC rules mis-used by UK management to impact upon UK employees rights is a real hot potato.
Perhaps they have all gone to the BA forum?
Come on guys although this could be seen as a temporary set back whilst legal positions are clarified it is also a relevant discussion point and a good opportunity to get us fare paying passengers back on your side. BALPA have made good use of the situation by declaring no strike over Easter. Now the use of an EC Treaty by BA to force their position could also be used to your public relations advantage. The subject of EC rules mis-used by UK management to impact upon UK employees rights is a real hot potato.
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vino - it's not a major setback at all.........We have some great intellects on the BACC with excellent legal advice - I am confident that they have the 'situation' under control and are ready to outfox the company again and again and again...........
Could I refer all the non pilots on this forum to posts 193/196 by biddedout. He/she really is able to see the wood for the trees and appreciates that only under the greatest duress would we, as a professional body, consider taking industrial action. Thank you for your perceptive comments (as an earlier poster has acknowledged) and I hope some of the less sympathetic/supportive posters are able to comprehend the significant points you make concerning (1) key characteristics of professional pilots and (2) BA management's role in the creation of this pitifull mess.
I fear however, that a lot of the anti BA pilot postings are written by people with agendas who have no interest in seeing things as they really are....
Could I refer all the non pilots on this forum to posts 193/196 by biddedout. He/she really is able to see the wood for the trees and appreciates that only under the greatest duress would we, as a professional body, consider taking industrial action. Thank you for your perceptive comments (as an earlier poster has acknowledged) and I hope some of the less sympathetic/supportive posters are able to comprehend the significant points you make concerning (1) key characteristics of professional pilots and (2) BA management's role in the creation of this pitifull mess.
I fear however, that a lot of the anti BA pilot postings are written by people with agendas who have no interest in seeing things as they really are....
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BALPA have applied for a "Fast Track" High Court ruling. This is estimated to take 6 weeks!
BALPA will win as BA's argument is over Anti Competition Law
The clock then will tick again on 21st April when 7 days notice of strike can be given on either 21st, 22nd or 23rd. So strike will be starting last days of April (my deduction) unless an agreement is reached in the meantime.
BA have been out-foxed and are firmly on the backfoot with the threat of industrial action hanging over them for a while longer, when they thought they had us about to cower under the table and accept their pathetic offers of "assurance". They are now flapping and want to meet again.
BALPA have called their bluff on the legal side and are "playing a blinder"
BALPA will win as BA's argument is over Anti Competition Law
The clock then will tick again on 21st April when 7 days notice of strike can be given on either 21st, 22nd or 23rd. So strike will be starting last days of April (my deduction) unless an agreement is reached in the meantime.
BA have been out-foxed and are firmly on the backfoot with the threat of industrial action hanging over them for a while longer, when they thought they had us about to cower under the table and accept their pathetic offers of "assurance". They are now flapping and want to meet again.
BALPA have called their bluff on the legal side and are "playing a blinder"