BALPA and BA talks breakdown

[Fork Handles]

Housewife and Monty,
I dont work for BA , I have turned down an OS job on principle.

As usual you miss the point but let me get this straight. If I was a BA pilot I am beholden to fly you when you demand under threat of unemployment and banishment to macdonalds. Now who is arrogant here . I smell a manager. You sound like someone who thinks they own a private jet. If you have such a low opinion of pilots why do you fly at all.One minute you trust your life to me and the next Im a ****. Sounds a bit petulant and toy throwing to me. Furthermore if the most respected pilots in the uk industry (selection , ability and pay) are such unprofessional twats because of their stand there is no hope for the rest of us.
I suggest Irish ferries for you rather than flying. Only its not Irish ferries anymore its Polish as is the ship maintenace and chief boat pointer. That is the sort of thing the Pilots are trying to stop. They get a living and you dont get killed by Igor in a BA plane.

You bought your ticket from BA not the pilot.The pilot works for BA and is the last defence between you and an unsafe flight not your beck and call.Ba are dicking the pilots around. The flight doesnt go. Like I said its not a reserve profession and the only arseholes here are the management. I believe you both maybe another manifestation of waterworld.

You have everyright to expect the product you pay for. The fact that the pilot withdraws his service is not the problem. The fact is the Management that insist on cutting to the bone the profession you trust your life to.

Its the pilots actions that will have the immediate affect on your plans but not their fault. This is just the tip of the icebergi n decisions that compromise your safety.

[jshg]

I'm not BA, but I am a UK airline pilot with 30+ years experience.
The fight that BA pilots have on OS is broadly the same as the problem affecting every UK airline pilot since the invention of Ryanair.
Virtually every airline has closed/curtailed its pension scheme, taken on 'low experience' pilots for greatly reduced - or even NO - pay, introduced some sort of pay bar, and many other radical reductions in employment benefits, shifting the risk & cost onto the pilot. This is all in the drive to radically reduce costs to enable airfares of 99p. Caterers, handlers, cabin crew have all been similarly affected.
There have been several recent industrial confrontations on this matter, often not publicised; but management keeps coming back, trying to enforce the new way of airline working.
The BA pilots' stance is important for every UK/European pilot - and every passenger too.

[merlinxx]

I repeat folks "KEEP THE FAITH" so many non BA Flt Crew are now putting their colours to this situation, it has to stick.

History lesson, BEALINE/Speedbird set the contract criteria way back in the late 60s. Everyone else based their's upon these criteria, be it FTLs, pay, per diem etc.
Then came CAP371 which gave an industry standard, so in one way parity.

Where do folks now look for their contractual guidance FR or BA, wake up you numpties, the industry has slid so far down the 'bus driver' road, that poss working for Ariva or Metrobus may be the end result. You want that?

If you do go hike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: I'm a Flt Dispatch MGR, if I ain't got the crews on my side, and me theirs, then were all shagged!!!

[goldcard60]

Beginning to see clearly

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Since my post this morning I've spent some time researching this issue. I must say I am impressed with the information presented on www.baplane-bapilot.org . I cannot find anything from BA about the current situation, other than a statement to say there will not be a strike over Easter.

I believe the dispute is currently held up by some legal wrangling over an EU treaty, which on the face of it I do not think applies in this case. Neither does my (highly paid) employment attorney. I am sure BA's legal advice is the best money can buy, and they will proceed as they see fit.

I've left several messages for my executive club "manager" and none have been returned. I shall not book a flight with BA until I have some certainty as to how this fracas will unfold.

I have to say, I am beginning to side with the pilots here. I am shocked to hear that BA are effectively outsourcing their pilot jobs. I would hope to find the same degree of crew training when travelling with BA from London to New York as from Paris to New York. I certainly expect a highly trained (and highly paid) crew member when I pay upwards of $10,000 for a seat on BA. My daughter had a road traffic accident some years back while on holiday, and I certainly didn't accept the local Puerto Rican surgeon. I flew one out from Miami, and his bill was more than justified in my eyes. My daughter spent 6 months in hospital, and walked again after 4 months. Worth every cent.

That is not to say that outsourcing is a bad business decision, and in fact my business uses approximately 40% outsourced labour. But not the professional, skilled employees. That is a very dangerous road to go down, and we are certainly not willing to take that chance.

I detect a certain degree of paranoia on this website about managers and journalists masquerading as something other than what they are. For the record, I am a successful businessman with established concerns on three continents. I obtained my Private Pilots License in December and I am looking for a Lear, which is what first brought me here to this website.

I shall keep reading, thank you all for a lively and on the whole grown up debate.

[Housewife-43]

My sympathies also lie with the pilots and not the managers. I just wanted to point out the plain and simple fact that this action, following on the heels of the industrial unrest over the past few years, is only serving to alienate passengers. That cannot be in anyone's interest.

For the record, I have also tried to make this point directly with BA - but they have not had the courtesy to respond to me.

Which leads me to question if I want to do business in future with a Company that holds the views of its paying customers in such contempt.

I am not BA staff - I am a housewife/secretary working in the manufacturing industry.

[MrBunker]

Housewife-43. You're absolutely right. It almost certainly will result in alienation of a significant proportion of our customer base. The problem we, as BA pilots, have is that we've endeavoured to resolve this in a peaceful manner with BA. They have shown they have never had any intention to negotiate meaningfully on this subject - their cynical production of a threatened High Court injunction near to the end of the 7 day notification period shows this alone.

The sad truth is we've no option left to ourselves now to protect our current terms and conditions (remember, this is not about us trying to get more than we currently earn) than to invoke industrial action. I don't know one of us who's actively looking forward to this but when your management won't engage then what else do we do?

BA's definition of a peaceful resolution to this is that we lie down, take it and shut up. That's simply not acceptable. Collaterally, the passengers are taking some of the damage of this attitude and for that I can only exhort them to direct their ire at BA, as I know you have done. That you have received no reply from them is of no surprise to me whatsoever. We are an airline of breathtaking arrogance and complacency and I, personally, don't see us lasting in our current form much longer anyway. We're a hollow shell of a brand trading on former glories and relentlessly being exposed for what we are by the middle and far-eastern airlines. I mean, have you seen the 'soft' product we have in First these days? Pathetic in comparison even to the European majors.

MrB

PS I'm not a manager, but I'm sure as hell not proud of who I work for.

[ShortfinalFred]

An excellent post, MrB.

The relentless destruction of staff morale, and the wilful reduction of the service offered to customers in BA over the last several years makes one wonder if the process is not, as we want to believe, a result of the overall incompetence of the present management hierarchy, but actually a deliberate attempt to destroy the airline from within and then, perhaps, replace it with a new model run on absolute diktat.

What might they call this replacement...? Open Skies, perhaps! Note the potential ironies in the name.

This is the most cynical management I have ever seen, and the depth of that cynicism has yet to be tested. BALPA's resolve to expose this is a superb example of a profession standing together, and the results of its efforts will benefit every professional pilot.

P.S. 411 is a sick man - I ignore him too

[KC135777]

Goldcard60, you said: "...[re:]outsourcing...But not the professional, skilled employees. That is a very dangerous road to go down, and we are certainly not willing to take that chance."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dangerous it is...especially from a safety standpoint- at the airlines.
Unfortunately w/ airline management, there is no part of their algorithms that includes employee morale. Employees are "cost units". They are constantly attempting to "re" establish lower wages and T&Cs, and claim "market forces" and staying "competitive", etc... If successful, the historical, high-quality applicants that have become pilots will choose other professions, and also leave the piloting profession. Management will only slow their attempt of "re"establishing lower wages/T&Cs, if and only if, retraining costs exceed a threshold and/or airplanes start crashing at an "unacceptable" rate. Isn't that just lovely?

The above is fact, not paranoia.
Goldcard60, check out airline management's "collusion" organization @ http://www.aircon.org and then you decide.

KC135777
AA pilot

[pacamack]

BA's definition of a peaceful resolution to this is that we lie down, take it and shut up.

...........and BALPA's definition is that BA lie down, take it and shut up?

[The Little Prince]

I am genuinely surprised. Anyone who has read any of my posts will know that I was one part of that BA group of pilots called BA CitiExpress. I believe that OS will result in the downgrading of UK Airline Pilot salaries and Ts and Cs, I have expressed a degree of doubt regarding the likelihood of support for BA pilots from such as myself, or graduates of other BA pilot groups such as Dan Air or GSS.
However, I thought I would give the other side a fair crack, and set out to read the BA Plane BA Pilot.

It is breathtaking: I can't copy and paste from a pdf, but

BALPA believe the link of common seniority (ie all new pilots whether BA or Open Skies join the master seniority list) allows all BA group pilots to work together to maintain the terms and conditions of the parent group

and

a common seniority list that allows reciprocal access to all BA Group flying on appropriate terms and conditions

so clearly, it wasn't an issue until you felt your own jobs threatened eh? Thanks boys, good to see an ethical approach to union tactics. I would think everyone involved in Dan, GSS, BACX, Connect etc will have to think hard about using their heads or their hearts.
Not sure if it's a case of 'Do as you would be done by' or 'Do unto others before they do it to you'

[CanAV8R]

Nice one pacamack. You are a manager or a manipulator. It is difficult to tell the difference sometimes.

I think I should point something out.

BA will announce RECORD PROFITS this year, somewhere in the vicinity of £1,000,000,000.

BA pilots are NOT ASKING FOR MORE but simply to protect what they already have. They have also agreed to match any cost BA wants to help the new operation. Where is the problem again?

In light of the BA’s outstanding financial results, asking for no more or less for that matter seems pretty sensible. I guess the Judge will sort that out!

[wiggy]

pacamack

Pacamack

This is not just BALPA, if you are not in BA you won't understand, but if you are BA management then I suggest you get off your back s**e and out of your office in Waterworld, Compass Ctr or even T5 and spend some time riding BA's equivalent of the Clapham Omnibus, otherwise known as the BA 1. I had the pleasure today and the grumbles I heard from non - pilot staff would or perhaps I say, should, make senior managements hair curl.....The Board, and the senior managers, have not just "lost" the pilots, they have lost all credibility with engineers, cabin crew, cargo centre staff and heaven knows who else. As one of the BA 1 riders quite rightly said, the constant hammering away at T&cs has got people's heads down it's difficult to see an end in sight, and people on the line are starting to give up. I'm inclinded to agree with the guy on the bus and even perhaps ShortFinalFred is right...this is a deliberate attempt by the Board to wreck the airline.

IMHO the Company cannot carry on like this...even if you think it can one thing is for certain :I certainly will not lie down and let this bunch of corrupt, self centred, greedy b*****, otherwise known as Senior managers and the Board, walk over me and my colleagues in pursuit of their bonuses.

Angry - you bet I am, and I will get even.

[MrBunker]

Pacamack,

Dear boy, girl or whatever. Rather than engaging us in the meat of the issue you choose to play tiresome semantic games.

[Riverboat]

We all know that BA management leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, they seem to be pathetic. But BA pilots qualify for the same description on the basis of this thread.

Yes, there may be concerns, but if anyone is mad enough to re-read all that has been posted, you have to come to conclusion that BA pilots are a pretty disastrous bunch of people. I hope it is only a minority that are showing their immaturity.

As for always assuming that anyone who posts anything "against" the pilots is necessarily BA management, please stop deluding yourselves. Most of us neutral pilots are not saying much, because it seems to be a largely domestic issue, but you can't help getting frustrated and irritated by some of the juvenile postings. One wonders about the quality of BA pilots. Can they be that good, that professional, if they behave like they are doing? Many seem to be irrational and some delusional. Not what you want in the cockpit.

If BA top management had enough guts, they should tell BALPA to get stuffed and get ready for the strike. Many UK industries have been lost by weak management not fighting when it was appropriate, and whilst this isn't quite the same, the question of who is managing BA, management or the pilots, is a fundamental one.

411A - you usually write common sense, and you have done in this case.

Forkhandles- You use the expression "unprofessional twats". I wouldn't have used that expression to refer to many of the posters, but now you mention it, you are probably spot on. Except you also say that the "only arseholes are in management". This is clearly not the case. Your posting (#385) is an example of the irrationality that I refer to.

jshg - Fair point, but have faith! Market forces will prevent the sort of decimation you are alluding to.

merlinxx - The thing is, being a pilot IS somewhat like being a bus driver. I know; I am one! Trying to pretend that it is some elevated profession that only supermen and superwomen can cope with is just plain wrong. Most professions are actually a lot less glamorous than they used to be, or seem to be: just ask a doctor. What makes you think pilots are so special? Just read all 400 postings in this thread and you'll see that if BA pilots are special, it could be for the wrong reasons. (I'd like to point out that, in fact, the majority of BA pilots I know are first class people, and I am sure they are very good pilots. I doubt many of them have bothered to post anything here.)

Sounds as though I am against people in my own profession, doesn't it? Well, I am very definitely not. But I would like some dignity to remain in the profession, and all I see is a section of BA pilots behaving with no dignity at all.

So if BA management is poor (which we all agree, it is), and BA pilots are what they seem to be, and the various other sections of BA that always want to seem to want to go on strike (cabin staff, transport, loaders etc.) are equally struggling to be an asset to the airline, it looks like BA have had it! They always seem to be late, they cancel flights regularly due lack of crews etc., they fly empty aircraft around, they have unhappy staff, they have crap management. Why the heck haven't you guys jumped ship and gone to a REAL airline? One with a future.

[L337]

Riverboat:

You are a brave man. I do hope you have a hard hat. As I type I can see the napalm being prepared by the zealots.

[pacamack]

MrBunker

Dear boy, girl or whatever. Rather than engaging us in the meat of the issue you choose to play tiresome semantic games.

Read my previous posts, I think these are quite clearly directed at "the meat of the issue".

[Hand Solo]

Of course you do, but nobody else does, that is the problem. Maybe you just don't know the difference?

[pacamack]

HandSolo

Brilliant, none of my points have addressed any of the arguments .

But the following arguments are very clear and cogent:

BA will announce RECORD PROFITS this year, somewhere in the vicinity of £1,000,000,000.

We all know that BA management leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, they seem to be pathetic.

So if BA management is poor (which we all agree, it is),

the overall incompetence of the present management

I can see why there is little point in BA management engaging in any talks with BALPA.

Just for the record, I am not and never have been a BA manager of any description.

[Tinytim]

Surprised no zealot has yet come back to flame Little Princes post.

He is actualy spot on in pointing out the double standards of those who now squeal with self righteous indignation and hold themselves out as standard bearers for the industry and all those flying under the BA flag.

Where indeed where all you BA guys when those of us in DAN GSS BACX and Connect etc. needed a lifeline to the mothership and were being shafted every which way?

Looking the other way is the answer.

[Hand Solo]

16 RJ 100s, 120 jobs, 2 bases, lots of routes, a place on the seniority list for the RJ pilots and an agreement by the BACC not to oppose the wholesale handover of that package to BACX was your lifeline. And what did you do? Complain because it wasn't 160 jobs.