BALPA and BA talks breakdown
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Overstress - we know each other and have discussed this topic before. I fully sympathise with your assessment of PPrune's 'condition' but it has to be remembered that UNLESS you and your mates visit and post here, you will not be fully aware of the feelings of those 'outside' the BA pilot force - and they are important on the coming media battleground.
You - and everyone - as always, need to learn to ignore the rabid 'anti' posts and the 'stirring' posts.
You and the rest of the pilots always need to recognise that on the BA BALPA forum, as with the old BA Compuserve forum and the BA private forum here, posting/talking will simply produce a cosy impression of support from like-minded folk with the same concerns (apart, of course, from those who did not vote for the strike motion).
I suspect the 'real', sensible public can see the problems you face and will grudgingly accept your proposed action. You all have to hope that, unlike the last few 'issues' the BA pilot force has faced, BALPA have a cohesive PR plan in place and will not let BA management run rings around them in the media as in the past.
You - and everyone - as always, need to learn to ignore the rabid 'anti' posts and the 'stirring' posts.
You and the rest of the pilots always need to recognise that on the BA BALPA forum, as with the old BA Compuserve forum and the BA private forum here, posting/talking will simply produce a cosy impression of support from like-minded folk with the same concerns (apart, of course, from those who did not vote for the strike motion).
I suspect the 'real', sensible public can see the problems you face and will grudgingly accept your proposed action. You all have to hope that, unlike the last few 'issues' the BA pilot force has faced, BALPA have a cohesive PR plan in place and will not let BA management run rings around them in the media as in the past.
Mach 3
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interpreter,
OK, I'll have a stab...
Personally, I don't think there will be a strike.
BA turn over, what, £30 million a day?
Whats the difference between the cost of a Mainline crew (i.e., one Cap & 1 FO) on, say, PP12, and an OS crew?
£30K?
Multiply that by 42 (on the basis that 6 a/c, crewed at 7 per a/c means they need 42 crews to fly the program) is £1.26 million PER YEAR.
Now lets put this in context.
BA's recent fine would, therefore, pay for the difference for 300 years of OS operation flown by mainline crew!
Conversely, what BA stand to loose in turnover for one days strike, would pay for 24 years of operation of OS by Mainline crew!
Of course the analysis is simplistic but you get a feel for the figures involved.
Now, if WW had the intention of growing OS to 150 a/c, then the saving is still only ~£30 million i.e., one days turnover.
Crazy thing is BA pilots aren't even asking for parity of T&C's! However, the inclusion of OS pilots on the Mainline seniority list will essentially mean that the wage contribution of the total pilot workforce to the total cost base will be somewhere between what it would be if there was no inclusion of OS pilots on the seniority list and where it would be if Mainline pilots flew the OS program.
So I reckon, if there is no hidden agenda, BA ought to roll over right now because they're starting to look pretty unreasonable from where I am sitting.
As for public hostility, BAA have far more to answer for...they run the airports not BA.
Go on....shoot me down.
May I dare to suggest that you tell others on the board what you genuinely believe will be the end result of strike action? Acceptance of BALPA requirements by the company? No public hostility? No loss of business in the long term to BA? No change to pilot Ts & Cs?
Personally, I don't think there will be a strike.
BA turn over, what, £30 million a day?
Whats the difference between the cost of a Mainline crew (i.e., one Cap & 1 FO) on, say, PP12, and an OS crew?
£30K?
Multiply that by 42 (on the basis that 6 a/c, crewed at 7 per a/c means they need 42 crews to fly the program) is £1.26 million PER YEAR.
Now lets put this in context.
BA's recent fine would, therefore, pay for the difference for 300 years of OS operation flown by mainline crew!
Conversely, what BA stand to loose in turnover for one days strike, would pay for 24 years of operation of OS by Mainline crew!
Of course the analysis is simplistic but you get a feel for the figures involved.
Now, if WW had the intention of growing OS to 150 a/c, then the saving is still only ~£30 million i.e., one days turnover.
Crazy thing is BA pilots aren't even asking for parity of T&C's! However, the inclusion of OS pilots on the Mainline seniority list will essentially mean that the wage contribution of the total pilot workforce to the total cost base will be somewhere between what it would be if there was no inclusion of OS pilots on the seniority list and where it would be if Mainline pilots flew the OS program.
So I reckon, if there is no hidden agenda, BA ought to roll over right now because they're starting to look pretty unreasonable from where I am sitting.
As for public hostility, BAA have far more to answer for...they run the airports not BA.
Go on....shoot me down.
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SR71
Whilst I do not believe your figures are entirely correct, they are ballpark close enough. Your post puts this whole affair into perspective, and clearly demonstrates that BA have an ulterior motive here.
Your summation that there will be no strikes is a possibility. I think BA will play every dirty trick in the book to prevent the strikes; only then, if they fail, will they consider giving us our schedule K amendments. I feel if we actually go down the road of strikes, they will be long and bloody. I hope it does not come to that, but knowing the arrogance of BA, I would not be surprised if we waste a fortune, for no particular reason.
Either way, I think the end result will be the scrapping of Openskies. Then a short time into the future, BA will start using it's own resources, with no disguise, to operate the very routes that Openskies was going to do.
Whilst I do not believe your figures are entirely correct, they are ballpark close enough. Your post puts this whole affair into perspective, and clearly demonstrates that BA have an ulterior motive here.
Your summation that there will be no strikes is a possibility. I think BA will play every dirty trick in the book to prevent the strikes; only then, if they fail, will they consider giving us our schedule K amendments. I feel if we actually go down the road of strikes, they will be long and bloody. I hope it does not come to that, but knowing the arrogance of BA, I would not be surprised if we waste a fortune, for no particular reason.
Either way, I think the end result will be the scrapping of Openskies. Then a short time into the future, BA will start using it's own resources, with no disguise, to operate the very routes that Openskies was going to do.
Grim Sleeper
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Wrong and Right?
So far BA management have done nothing "wrong". They haven't broken any agreements, unilaterally reduced our T&C's, nor been proven to have lied in any OS discussions (if they had we certainly would have been told by BACC reps). This is pre-emptive action by the BACC based on seemingly related events on the other side of the world.
Also, the BACC appear to be doing the "right" thing. They have identified a potential threat to the BA members' future earnings and promotion potential. They have addressed these concerns with BA, and have had unsatisfactory replies. They have followed the correct IR procedure and have secured a massive vote of support from the members.
However, let's remember - OpenSkies has not flown a single passenger yet! We are expected to harm ourselves and our families by striking for a company that doesn't even in actual fact exist whose so far non-existent pilots may not even want BA seniority once it's up and running?
I'm sure the passengers who have cancelled flights, rearranged their travel, or once again wearily resigned themselves to miserable disruption will join the loaders, drivers, CS agents, heck, even the cabin crew to thank us at the end of the day for putting all of their employment in jeopardy over what is in effect an exercise in conjecture, speculation and worst-case projection based on an Australian precedent which so far hasn't produced one piece of evidence that any Qantas pilot is materially worse off over three years after Jetstar began operations.
Stop this adversarial fighting talk and let's see a reasonable solution.
Also, the BACC appear to be doing the "right" thing. They have identified a potential threat to the BA members' future earnings and promotion potential. They have addressed these concerns with BA, and have had unsatisfactory replies. They have followed the correct IR procedure and have secured a massive vote of support from the members.
However, let's remember - OpenSkies has not flown a single passenger yet! We are expected to harm ourselves and our families by striking for a company that doesn't even in actual fact exist whose so far non-existent pilots may not even want BA seniority once it's up and running?
I'm sure the passengers who have cancelled flights, rearranged their travel, or once again wearily resigned themselves to miserable disruption will join the loaders, drivers, CS agents, heck, even the cabin crew to thank us at the end of the day for putting all of their employment in jeopardy over what is in effect an exercise in conjecture, speculation and worst-case projection based on an Australian precedent which so far hasn't produced one piece of evidence that any Qantas pilot is materially worse off over three years after Jetstar began operations.
Stop this adversarial fighting talk and let's see a reasonable solution.
Grim Sleeper
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Its no use waiting until Open Skies is flying with its own MSL, because then it will be too late to do anything about it
Plenty of people will say there is precedent for the Company doing this - I would agree, but then query why there has been no precedent for IA by the BACC in the wake of these broken agreements?
Why now, and why this issue? We let BA have the compromise on NAPS, even though it was a compromise. Likewise the Work Coverage agreement. Why is there no room for compromise in this? It makes us look like hidebound reactionaries, protectionist and paranoid, happy to damage the company to secure an agreement which will be commercially more damaging in the future.
Not me, thanks.
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Slim20
Which airline do you think BA will throw all of it's resources at? Will it be the one with the best operating margin? If we are not getting the resources we will die, OS will grow, and that will be the end of our jobs. There will be no action that we can take, because anything we do will just accelerate our demise.
The question you have to ask is, "Why are BA prepared to push us to a strike?" They would not take the financial hit if they thought we would still be able to defend ourselves later. This is the battle for them. If they win it, they have beaten us for good. There will be nothing we can do to prevent our downfall if we lose.
Fortunately, at least 84% of us disagree with you. We will end up protecting you, whether you realise that you need it or not.
Which airline do you think BA will throw all of it's resources at? Will it be the one with the best operating margin? If we are not getting the resources we will die, OS will grow, and that will be the end of our jobs. There will be no action that we can take, because anything we do will just accelerate our demise.
The question you have to ask is, "Why are BA prepared to push us to a strike?" They would not take the financial hit if they thought we would still be able to defend ourselves later. This is the battle for them. If they win it, they have beaten us for good. There will be nothing we can do to prevent our downfall if we lose.
Not me, thanks
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It seems that a corner stone of BAs argument is that there may be a future cost liability if OS pilots are on the MSL.
Surely if OS is a booming success, a lot of OS pilots will not want to join mainline as they will get earlier commands and hence better pay by staying within OS.
Alternatively, if OS fails, then the OS pilots who have passed the BA recruitment process will make up some of the 250 pilots required for mainline this year (assuming that BA agree to employing OS pilots using the same selection criteria)
The middle ground is the problem area..........but BA do not know what will happen anymore than Balpa do.
BA managers have continuously highlighted the fact that Balpa are threatening IA to protect something that may not happen. But surely BA are also guilty of not re-writing the mainline agreements to protect something that may not happen.
Surely if OS is a booming success, a lot of OS pilots will not want to join mainline as they will get earlier commands and hence better pay by staying within OS.
Alternatively, if OS fails, then the OS pilots who have passed the BA recruitment process will make up some of the 250 pilots required for mainline this year (assuming that BA agree to employing OS pilots using the same selection criteria)
The middle ground is the problem area..........but BA do not know what will happen anymore than Balpa do.
BA managers have continuously highlighted the fact that Balpa are threatening IA to protect something that may not happen. But surely BA are also guilty of not re-writing the mainline agreements to protect something that may not happen.
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PPrune network isn't really a Rumour Network, its' a propaganda network these days,or at least it is for some. It intrigues me that the BA Pilot posters', in the overwhelming majority, refer to detailed and accurate arguments that show why they have taken the stance they have whereas the nay sayers are either a) new posters with no previous track record on pprune or b) the same old pilot haters of yore like 411a who'se sole mantra seems to be that pilots are worth no more than a baggage loader, (no disrespect to a hard physical job), with his attendant glee at every single backwards step he sees in pilot pay.
I have a strong suspicion that many of the nay sayers have an axe to grind that has a lot less to do with being Joe Public,(not an insult, just a phrase in ordinary parlance, by the way), and a lot more with being involved with the management side of BA or other companies with an interest in scr*wing BA pilot pay. We haven't even had Mr John Torrode of the Daily M*il with his specialist "Pilot - Hater" articles yet - to come, no doubt. Now that BALPA have exhausted every avenue with BA I suggest BA pilots pretty much ignore most of the pilot-hating/baiting posted here, (most do anyway, I am sure). The contempt with which BA treat pretty much all its frontline staff beggars belief. BALPA will win and BA may yet be a far better airline for it.
I have a strong suspicion that many of the nay sayers have an axe to grind that has a lot less to do with being Joe Public,(not an insult, just a phrase in ordinary parlance, by the way), and a lot more with being involved with the management side of BA or other companies with an interest in scr*wing BA pilot pay. We haven't even had Mr John Torrode of the Daily M*il with his specialist "Pilot - Hater" articles yet - to come, no doubt. Now that BALPA have exhausted every avenue with BA I suggest BA pilots pretty much ignore most of the pilot-hating/baiting posted here, (most do anyway, I am sure). The contempt with which BA treat pretty much all its frontline staff beggars belief. BALPA will win and BA may yet be a far better airline for it.
Grim Sleeper
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Which airline do you think BA will throw all of it's resources at?
Openskies: 6 surplus 757s, 70 pilots (so far, with no growth plans in place yet)
I'm not scared enough to strike on that scoreline
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Slim20
Do you remember around the time when BA wanted to close the FSS pensions to new employees? We were balloted, and everyone said it would be at least a decade before BA came after existing employees' pensions. How long did we wait? Oh, I think it was about a year! (I saw that coming and voted no by the way, but that is by and by).
The future looks pretty good for us at the moment. Yes we are getting all of these new aircraft. And where will all the old ones go I wonder? You guessed it, Openskies. Then once Openskies reached 'critical mass', the tides will turn and we will be on the decline. I do not know how many years you have left in the company, but from your stance, I'd guess not many.
Do you remember around the time when BA wanted to close the FSS pensions to new employees? We were balloted, and everyone said it would be at least a decade before BA came after existing employees' pensions. How long did we wait? Oh, I think it was about a year! (I saw that coming and voted no by the way, but that is by and by).
The future looks pretty good for us at the moment. Yes we are getting all of these new aircraft. And where will all the old ones go I wonder? You guessed it, Openskies. Then once Openskies reached 'critical mass', the tides will turn and we will be on the decline. I do not know how many years you have left in the company, but from your stance, I'd guess not many.
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For anyone who still thinks this strike is actually about Open Skies (Slim20 take note), please re-read this thread and the other related threads.
The strike is about amendments to Schedule K of the pilot's Operating Agreement. It is NOT about Open Skies per se.
Schedule K is a scope clause which protects career opportunities for BA pilots, specifically that BA mainline pilots must fly any BA mainline aircraft of more than 100 seats out of the UK and any BA aircraft out of London. The dispute is about whether or not this agreement should be extended to cover European operation.
Open Skies has made the news as this is what triggered the current disagreement but the strike is about Schedule K. The law in the UK does not allow you to strike for something which might happen which is why it is not about Open Skies and is about amendments to Schedule K.
The strike is about amendments to Schedule K of the pilot's Operating Agreement. It is NOT about Open Skies per se.
Schedule K is a scope clause which protects career opportunities for BA pilots, specifically that BA mainline pilots must fly any BA mainline aircraft of more than 100 seats out of the UK and any BA aircraft out of London. The dispute is about whether or not this agreement should be extended to cover European operation.
Open Skies has made the news as this is what triggered the current disagreement but the strike is about Schedule K. The law in the UK does not allow you to strike for something which might happen which is why it is not about Open Skies and is about amendments to Schedule K.
PPRuNe Person
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BOAC - thank you for your words. I take on board your advice; it isn't an easy ride on here. I will keep on posting, I think it's worthwhile, after all, how else will the outside world get to know our viewpoint. I think our arguments are right and I will continue to defend them. 
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HI again,
This is for all the BALPA pilots out there. I am a member of "Joe Public", a student from the USA studying at King's College in fact. I have family coming out here on the 19th of March via BA. I was wondering if any of you had heard any strikes dates being thrown around? I support you in your fight, but I just need to make sure my family can get out here somehow so if the 19th looks like a date it could happen, knowing now rather than later would be a great help for me.
Thank you
This is for all the BALPA pilots out there. I am a member of "Joe Public", a student from the USA studying at King's College in fact. I have family coming out here on the 19th of March via BA. I was wondering if any of you had heard any strikes dates being thrown around? I support you in your fight, but I just need to make sure my family can get out here somehow so if the 19th looks like a date it could happen, knowing now rather than later would be a great help for me.
Thank you