BALPA and BA talks breakdown
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I'm not 757coolplane, but for my own part:
1. I don't want a mainline seniority number because I want nothing to do with mainline. I am quite happy to accept my job offer with OS, and believe it will prosper most if kept separate to the obsessed BA pilots with their unrealistic and dated expectations. It will take over more and more of what is currently perceived as 'mainline' work.
2. Yes, I'm a union member. I am a member of the IPA, which provides all my requirements and costs a fraction of a fraction of the funds required to keep the BA union afloat. I have been a member of BALPA, and worked for a BALPA organised airline who benefited nothing from its so-called support. Never again! Long live the 1% pay rise.
Fundamentally, the BA business model is shot. I don't mean wrong, I mean shot and uncompetitive. Yes, I know the 10% was nearly achieved, but look at the cost. The cost in labour relations, human relations and business relations - not to mention PUBLIC RELATIONS. We're about to see BAA broken up. It won't happen to BA, because either the pilots will bring it down, or if they fail, then the ridiculous management practices will.
1. I don't want a mainline seniority number because I want nothing to do with mainline. I am quite happy to accept my job offer with OS, and believe it will prosper most if kept separate to the obsessed BA pilots with their unrealistic and dated expectations. It will take over more and more of what is currently perceived as 'mainline' work.
2. Yes, I'm a union member. I am a member of the IPA, which provides all my requirements and costs a fraction of a fraction of the funds required to keep the BA union afloat. I have been a member of BALPA, and worked for a BALPA organised airline who benefited nothing from its so-called support. Never again! Long live the 1% pay rise.
Fundamentally, the BA business model is shot. I don't mean wrong, I mean shot and uncompetitive. Yes, I know the 10% was nearly achieved, but look at the cost. The cost in labour relations, human relations and business relations - not to mention PUBLIC RELATIONS. We're about to see BAA broken up. It won't happen to BA, because either the pilots will bring it down, or if they fail, then the ridiculous management practices will.
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And the small, single aircraft premium service model is doing soooo well right now, isn't it? BA have just rolled over and conceded to every one of the cabin crews demands because they know fine well they cannot even afford a strike ballot now, let alone a strike. On May 19th BA go the High Court to fight a case they hadn't anticipated with their fingers crossed that they win. If they don't win then Open Skies joins the bottom of the mainline seniority list the next day. You'll be about number 3250 Pontiouspilot.
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Is that as accurate a post as the one you made regarding Burkhill having been back flying for months???
If that IS the case, think about the fun you'll have flying together - I wonder how many sectors Pontius will give you?
No street cred Hand, none at all.
Stick to the one ID Pontious there's a love - Regards Admin
If that IS the case, think about the fun you'll have flying together - I wonder how many sectors Pontius will give you?
No street cred Hand, none at all.
Stick to the one ID Pontious there's a love - Regards Admin
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Pete has been back on flying duties for months and has flown. Rostered a full line last month and a full line next month, he can go flying any time he chooses. Of course you can carry on believing the Sunday Mirror cos thats got to be the truth.
With a seniority number less than half of Pontious' I don't think I'll be worrying too much about asking him for sectors.
With a seniority number less than half of Pontious' I don't think I'll be worrying too much about asking him for sectors.
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santas little whelper said
In the thirty or so years I have been flying airliners, the pilots who got up my nose the most were those with attitudes like heavy heavy: ex fast jet pilots who talk in clipped tones with barely concealed arrogance about their previous life, in spite of the fact they were often flying outdated equipment while being paid peanuts. They then carry their backstabbing officer like qualities over to the airlines where, in their desire to compensate for failing to achieve in the service, they often crawl their way into management positions before being found out and someone else has to clear up the mess!
And the BA pilots, many of whom have over the years managed to conceal their below average flying skills in a large balpa driven system, while at the same time trying to prevent anyone else from queering their pitch, are only too happy to take jobs with these lesser airlines when they retire at 55.
so below average BA pilots came to your outfits! so are you admitting that your outfits employed below average pilots as the norm or that it was just the ex-ba guys? wow i'd be pretty upset to.
in summary, i'm the worst type of pilot. arrogant, below average hands, a backstabbing manager and worst of all ex-mil and therefore equally lucky and incompetent. and i work for BA, frack you must really hate me.
sorry
oh yeah back to the argument.........................
ba plane ba pilot
ps. basic pprune rule no 1:
when 411a agrees and admires your views its not generally considered good for your cred
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Stick to the one ID Pontious there's a love - Regards Admin
Pathetic.
I don't want a mainline seniority number because I want nothing to do with mainline.
)I can see why they want IPA members! They're going to walk all over the likes of you. I'm almost tempted to just let you get on with it! (Saving 1%? It'll cost you 40!)
However this is resolved, I'll be very happy to let you negotiate your own T&Cs!
How does that sound?
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seniority list / otherbpoints
Colleagues,
regarding your recent posts:
1. Seniority List
I think a common seniority list would not fit, because (i) OS operates in a complete different sector (ii) it would block experienced F/O`s to move upward to command. Finally: Are there really ANY BA pilots, that would like to join OS? This would mean: (i) move to Paris or any other european base (however: away from LHR and your families) (ii) get paid worse and (iii) fly more hours and longer shifts. Any volunteers here in the forum?
On the other hand: Compared to the market (without mainline like Air France), OS payment is above average. So for the "average" european pilot, this is a good chance to fly longhaul with a stable roster and an above average payment, without moving to Dubai.
A common seniority list simply would not fit.
2. BALPA
To be honest: 2 weeks ago I did not even know who BALPA is. Please note, that there is NO approach ban or any similar thing (just read the pdf.-file in the forum exactly). So please understand, that as an european pilot BALPA is very far away and - to my personal opinion is wrong in its facts:
BA sticks 100% to the contracts, that means BA-Pilots get paid exactly everything they agreed on. Plus: BA`s plans to expand are not affected at all. It is just a complete different story - beacuse the business modell requires pilots to be based on flexible terms all around europe. This would not be possible with a BA contract. Finally: It is the management decision of BA to set up such a new company, even if they use the financial ressources of BA. Employees get awarded by their contracts - the management decision are companies business. At least here in France we have this understanding of capitalism.
OS is planned to be a small niche carrier in a very small market. It will simply not affect the BA Business. Just have a look at the actuall situation: OS: 0 planes / BA 245 planes. OS will expand to a fleet of 9 (!) planes in a sperate market-segment. So what ist this all about????
3. OS
I personally believe, that this will be a great success-because all colleagues I met so far are very polite, professional and have a broad experience in aviation. The recriminations in this forum are just not fair and adequate for professional aviators!
regarding your recent posts:
1. Seniority List
I think a common seniority list would not fit, because (i) OS operates in a complete different sector (ii) it would block experienced F/O`s to move upward to command. Finally: Are there really ANY BA pilots, that would like to join OS? This would mean: (i) move to Paris or any other european base (however: away from LHR and your families) (ii) get paid worse and (iii) fly more hours and longer shifts. Any volunteers here in the forum?
On the other hand: Compared to the market (without mainline like Air France), OS payment is above average. So for the "average" european pilot, this is a good chance to fly longhaul with a stable roster and an above average payment, without moving to Dubai.
A common seniority list simply would not fit.
2. BALPA
To be honest: 2 weeks ago I did not even know who BALPA is. Please note, that there is NO approach ban or any similar thing (just read the pdf.-file in the forum exactly). So please understand, that as an european pilot BALPA is very far away and - to my personal opinion is wrong in its facts:
BA sticks 100% to the contracts, that means BA-Pilots get paid exactly everything they agreed on. Plus: BA`s plans to expand are not affected at all. It is just a complete different story - beacuse the business modell requires pilots to be based on flexible terms all around europe. This would not be possible with a BA contract. Finally: It is the management decision of BA to set up such a new company, even if they use the financial ressources of BA. Employees get awarded by their contracts - the management decision are companies business. At least here in France we have this understanding of capitalism.
OS is planned to be a small niche carrier in a very small market. It will simply not affect the BA Business. Just have a look at the actuall situation: OS: 0 planes / BA 245 planes. OS will expand to a fleet of 9 (!) planes in a sperate market-segment. So what ist this all about????
3. OS
I personally believe, that this will be a great success-because all colleagues I met so far are very polite, professional and have a broad experience in aviation. The recriminations in this forum are just not fair and adequate for professional aviators!
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OS is planned to be a small niche carrier in a very small market.
Have you read the baplane-bapilot campaign website? If you familiarise yourself with the likes of 'Jetstar; and 'American Eagle', you will begin to understand why we will not allow this 'mainline' operation to exist without 'mainline' seniority for it's pilots.
it would block experienced F/O`s to move upward to command.
Your command upgrades are to be done on merit, and you have no representation at the table!
A common seniority list simply would not fit.
I think you may have been fed a little too much propaganda!
Try reading a little more of the baplane-bapilot website.
Bon chance.
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Excuse if I have to take exception to some of the postings:
I am interested in moving to OS from BA Mainline.
Not least since I'm a foreigner myself.
I can't see why one would not be interested. The Mainline group of pilots is so diverse that yes they will view it as a distinct possibility.
Pay is not that much worse if you start considering tax benefits and the ability to be paid in Euro's at a 1.4 conversation rate. In fact if a command is on the cards for many FO's it might actually be a healthy payrise in the scenario above.
So yes I do have a vested interest in OS.
However there are another couple of reasons:
1) one of my friends has got an OS contract whilst working for another 75/76 operator and the plans are not 'just' for 6 aircraft.
You are already alluding to 9 aircraft, whilst he was talking about a possible 30 if/when BA orders it's next big a/c order. (think 787's)
2) the golden goose that LHR is at the moment will not remain as it is today. The economics will simply prevail and margins on UK-US routes and external competition will make it drop pretty heftily over the coming years.
AI the profit margins of an operation like OS and BA will come closer together.
You might well find that routes that were viable in a pre Openskies (the agreement) will not be viable anymore after Openskies (the agreement)...
Futher to that it means that expansion will probably be focused on routes with higher profit margins and so you'll find that life at London might well become very stale for a lot of guys.
3) sorry if i'm slightly biased and probably egoistic in my views but I joined BA for a reason.
And I will not just roll over and die when it's clear that my union and it's members want to make OS a success on the companies T&C's but without the infighting that is going to happen between 2 different companies from a pilot's perspective.
BA Plane = BA Pilot
I am interested in moving to OS from BA Mainline.
Not least since I'm a foreigner myself.
I can't see why one would not be interested. The Mainline group of pilots is so diverse that yes they will view it as a distinct possibility.
Pay is not that much worse if you start considering tax benefits and the ability to be paid in Euro's at a 1.4 conversation rate. In fact if a command is on the cards for many FO's it might actually be a healthy payrise in the scenario above.
So yes I do have a vested interest in OS.
However there are another couple of reasons:
1) one of my friends has got an OS contract whilst working for another 75/76 operator and the plans are not 'just' for 6 aircraft.
You are already alluding to 9 aircraft, whilst he was talking about a possible 30 if/when BA orders it's next big a/c order. (think 787's)
2) the golden goose that LHR is at the moment will not remain as it is today. The economics will simply prevail and margins on UK-US routes and external competition will make it drop pretty heftily over the coming years.
AI the profit margins of an operation like OS and BA will come closer together.
You might well find that routes that were viable in a pre Openskies (the agreement) will not be viable anymore after Openskies (the agreement)...
Futher to that it means that expansion will probably be focused on routes with higher profit margins and so you'll find that life at London might well become very stale for a lot of guys.
3) sorry if i'm slightly biased and probably egoistic in my views but I joined BA for a reason.
And I will not just roll over and die when it's clear that my union and it's members want to make OS a success on the companies T&C's but without the infighting that is going to happen between 2 different companies from a pilot's perspective.
BA Plane = BA Pilot
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Good luck Pontius and your chums at OS.
Good luck with a) a fuel league table with skippers names or computer codes attached to it, published for all to see, and the threat of a career ending interview with the boss every time you take more than the Flight Plan fuel, for whatever reason.
Good luck with a punctuality league run on the same basis and with the same threats applied, when on most occasions you will be powerless to influence the outcome over which you will be held accountable.
Good luck staying in cut-rate airport hotels in the 'States with the vacuum cleaner roaring away outside your door, and Lord help you if you ever raise an ASR due to crew fatigue.
Good luck too with rosters that would kill an elephant - 6 to 7 transatlantics a month with just two flight crew? Have you ever done that, not just for a few months but for a career? It is lethal.
Good luck with your pay rates as well. Think they will last long after the operation starts do you? The standard tactic of a below inflation pay settlement coming your way soonest, year in, year out, so providing a real time pay cut, year in, year out!
Think you will get a command if you are an IFALPA, BALPA, or even an IPA rep and so much as squeak at management over issues on the line, let alone raise the topic of pay? Not with a "merit based promotion structure" you wont!
And whilst we are at it, BA's costs problem does not lie with its pilots, benchmarked and flying at annual legal flying hour limits, including 150 hours a year more than colleagues at Virgin. Try a wander through the job specs on offer in BA's company newspaper every Friday and stare in wonderment that a low margin business can afford such frippery, let alone a self-inflicted circa $850 million dollar fine that would have seen hard working front line staff with a bonus, but for the incompetence of certain managers.
You are living in cloud cuckoo land Pontius. You are either naive or disingenuous with all that "BA's model is broken" twaddle - in fact, it is so straight off the management song sheet that I suspect you are either a BA manager or an aspirant.
Like I say, Good Luck. You are going to need it.
Good luck with a) a fuel league table with skippers names or computer codes attached to it, published for all to see, and the threat of a career ending interview with the boss every time you take more than the Flight Plan fuel, for whatever reason.
Good luck with a punctuality league run on the same basis and with the same threats applied, when on most occasions you will be powerless to influence the outcome over which you will be held accountable.
Good luck staying in cut-rate airport hotels in the 'States with the vacuum cleaner roaring away outside your door, and Lord help you if you ever raise an ASR due to crew fatigue.
Good luck too with rosters that would kill an elephant - 6 to 7 transatlantics a month with just two flight crew? Have you ever done that, not just for a few months but for a career? It is lethal.
Good luck with your pay rates as well. Think they will last long after the operation starts do you? The standard tactic of a below inflation pay settlement coming your way soonest, year in, year out, so providing a real time pay cut, year in, year out!
Think you will get a command if you are an IFALPA, BALPA, or even an IPA rep and so much as squeak at management over issues on the line, let alone raise the topic of pay? Not with a "merit based promotion structure" you wont!
And whilst we are at it, BA's costs problem does not lie with its pilots, benchmarked and flying at annual legal flying hour limits, including 150 hours a year more than colleagues at Virgin. Try a wander through the job specs on offer in BA's company newspaper every Friday and stare in wonderment that a low margin business can afford such frippery, let alone a self-inflicted circa $850 million dollar fine that would have seen hard working front line staff with a bonus, but for the incompetence of certain managers.
You are living in cloud cuckoo land Pontius. You are either naive or disingenuous with all that "BA's model is broken" twaddle - in fact, it is so straight off the management song sheet that I suspect you are either a BA manager or an aspirant.
Like I say, Good Luck. You are going to need it.
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Originally Posted by 757coolpilot
1. Seniority List
I think a common seniority list would not fit, because (i) OS operates in a complete different sector
I think a common seniority list would not fit, because (i) OS operates in a complete different sector
(ii) it would block experienced F/O`s to move upward to command.
Finally: Are there really ANY BA pilots, that would like to join OS? This would mean: (i) move to Paris or any other european base (however: away from LHR and your families) (ii) get paid worse and (iii) fly more hours and longer shifts. Any volunteers here in the forum?
On the other hand: Compared to the market (without mainline like Air France), OS payment is above average. So for the "average" european pilot, this is a good chance to fly longhaul with a stable roster and an above average payment, without moving to Dubai.
A common seniority list simply would not fit.
To be honest: 2 weeks ago I did not even know who BALPA is. Please note, that there is NO approach ban or any similar thing
So please understand, that as an european pilot BALPA is very far away and - to my personal opinion is wrong in its facts
BA sticks 100% to the contracts, that means BA-Pilots get paid exactly everything they agreed on.
Plus: BA`s plans to expand are not affected at all. It is just a complete different story - beacuse the business modell requires pilots to be based on flexible terms all around europe.
This would not be possible with a BA contract.
Finally: It is the management decision of BA to set up such a new company, even if they use the financial ressources of BA. Employees get awarded by their contracts - the management decision are companies business. At least here in France we have this understanding of capitalism.
OS is planned to be a small niche carrier in a very small market. It will simply not affect the BA Business.
Just have a look at the actuall situation: OS: 0 planes / BA 245 planes. OS will expand to a fleet of 9 (!) planes in a sperate market-segment.
Easyjet started with 0 planes.
I personally believe, that this will be a great success-because all colleagues I met so far are very polite, professional and have a broad experience in aviation.
The recriminations in this forum are just not fair and adequate for professional aviators!
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There are a great number of big chips on some shoulders here - one has to wonder why so many are jealous of BA. Perhaps failed the assessment?
Coming to 757coolpilot
a) you clearly have no idea how many BA crew live in France
b) how would the mainline seniority list block anyone moving up to command? You may disagree with the seniority system - as I do - but people do get their shot at command when their turn arrives. Furthermore - why would you deny yourself access to mainline in case OS is a failure...?
c) not sure how you figure BA pilots could work any harder - many are at legal maxima
d) there are so few other scheduled airlines flying longhaul other than former national carriers, that I cannot see how you can justifiably exclude them from your "market" analysis of the pay rates
e) BA have operated non-London bases in the past - I cannot see how operating around Europe for OS would be any different from mainline staff operating around the UK in the past
f) OS will not infringe upon the BA business - except for the 30% of passengers transferring through Heathrow from points of origin in Europe and travelling onto - say New York...
Coming to 757coolpilot
a) you clearly have no idea how many BA crew live in France
b) how would the mainline seniority list block anyone moving up to command? You may disagree with the seniority system - as I do - but people do get their shot at command when their turn arrives. Furthermore - why would you deny yourself access to mainline in case OS is a failure...?
c) not sure how you figure BA pilots could work any harder - many are at legal maxima
d) there are so few other scheduled airlines flying longhaul other than former national carriers, that I cannot see how you can justifiably exclude them from your "market" analysis of the pay rates
e) BA have operated non-London bases in the past - I cannot see how operating around Europe for OS would be any different from mainline staff operating around the UK in the past
f) OS will not infringe upon the BA business - except for the 30% of passengers transferring through Heathrow from points of origin in Europe and travelling onto - say New York...
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As an outsider in all this, it is quite interesting to see the contrasting views of all the affected pilot groups.
Whilst there will obviously be a 180 degree divergence between the views of pilots like 757coolpilot and existing BA Mainline pilots, it seems that there is also a slight difference of views within existing BA pilots themselves.
For example, Shortfinalfred paints a very negative picture of life at OS, but that picture, if it is common knowledge within BA, does not appear to dissuade the likes of Shaka Zulu who would happily give up the exisiting BA Mainline T&C's to join OS.
So, at the end of the day, is it more likely that this dispute will be resolved to no ones satisfaction? OS pilots on the Mainline list but with inferior T&C's seems like a halfway solution. Why not OS pilots on the Mainline list with Mainline T&C's, or OS pilots not on the Mainline list at all?
.........and no, I am not a BA Manager!
Whilst there will obviously be a 180 degree divergence between the views of pilots like 757coolpilot and existing BA Mainline pilots, it seems that there is also a slight difference of views within existing BA pilots themselves.
For example, Shortfinalfred paints a very negative picture of life at OS, but that picture, if it is common knowledge within BA, does not appear to dissuade the likes of Shaka Zulu who would happily give up the exisiting BA Mainline T&C's to join OS.
So, at the end of the day, is it more likely that this dispute will be resolved to no ones satisfaction? OS pilots on the Mainline list but with inferior T&C's seems like a halfway solution. Why not OS pilots on the Mainline list with Mainline T&C's, or OS pilots not on the Mainline list at all?
.........and no, I am not a BA Manager!
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Ray - with 3000 pilots in BA you'll never please everyone. Gatwick operates on inferior T&Cs to Heathrow but they never seem to run out of willing volunteers for commands there. Naturally we'd like OS on the mainline seniority list on mainline T&Cs but Rome wasn't built in a day. It, like Gatwick, will start lower and work it's way up when profitability permits.
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Hand Solo,
I was not aware of that. I guess that means that there is a lot of switching T&C's as a pilot moves from say FO(LHR) to Capt(LGW) to FO/Capt(LHR) etc?
If so, then a precedent exists for OS Pilots on the Mainline list with their own bespoke T&C's. But if the OS pilot then moves to Mainline (one of the obvious benefits of being on the mainline seniority list), will they also switch T&C's as above? And a Mainline pilot choosing OS will be giving up all his/her mainline T&C's?
I can see a point at which this mechanism itself will begin to cause problems within the BACC who will be representing and striving for the betterment of ALL the different T&C's on the seniority list.
I have to say, the more I read and learn about this dispute, the more I realise that it is very complicated, and will require an equally complicated solution......not quite the simple, straightforward one line solutions advocated by both BA and BALPA.
Good luck
Gatwick operates on inferior T&Cs to Heathrow
If so, then a precedent exists for OS Pilots on the Mainline list with their own bespoke T&C's. But if the OS pilot then moves to Mainline (one of the obvious benefits of being on the mainline seniority list), will they also switch T&C's as above? And a Mainline pilot choosing OS will be giving up all his/her mainline T&C's?
I can see a point at which this mechanism itself will begin to cause problems within the BACC who will be representing and striving for the betterment of ALL the different T&C's on the seniority list.
I have to say, the more I read and learn about this dispute, the more I realise that it is very complicated, and will require an equally complicated solution......not quite the simple, straightforward one line solutions advocated by both BA and BALPA.
Good luck
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I am sure most OS pilots are probably well intentioned but desperate for a job.
However, some of the ex BA (retired) pilots joining OS have a very poor reputation in BA. Some could not get into to Oasis because of their behaviour in BA. They are now joining OS.
I hope you enjoy each others company. If they let you pass the sim checks.
Awalis
However, some of the ex BA (retired) pilots joining OS have a very poor reputation in BA. Some could not get into to Oasis because of their behaviour in BA. They are now joining OS.
I hope you enjoy each others company. If they let you pass the sim checks.
Awalis
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Ray - you are correct about the precedent, and there is indeed a lot of switching. LGW operated on inferior pay and rostering compared with LHR for years. When the base grew more successful/profitable pay moved towards that of LHR, to the point that it is now identical but for a pay cap after 16 years at LGW. Rostering is still different but over time that may change too.
When a LGW pilot moved to LHR they always moved to the LHR mainline pay scales and vice versa. That would be the case with OS too. If a mainline pilot wished to move to OS they would move onto whatever pay scale was agreed between BA and the BACC, which would probably look very similar to the current proposed secondee T&Cs.
The system is complex but not necessarily a problem in BA. All pay negotiations in BA needed to be shrouded in mystery and concealed by smoke and mirrors lest anyone believe you have achieved anything other than the corporate offer. The complexity of different bases, rostering rules and working arrangements provides a suitable smoke screen to prevent the other unions in BA from seeing what is actually going on. The BACC have very detailed information on who is earning what and where and what the overall pot looks like before and after. Open Skies will run under it's own CC and will be responsible for it's own affairs, although with their pilots on the master seniority list there would undoubtedly be close links to the BACC.
When a LGW pilot moved to LHR they always moved to the LHR mainline pay scales and vice versa. That would be the case with OS too. If a mainline pilot wished to move to OS they would move onto whatever pay scale was agreed between BA and the BACC, which would probably look very similar to the current proposed secondee T&Cs.
The system is complex but not necessarily a problem in BA. All pay negotiations in BA needed to be shrouded in mystery and concealed by smoke and mirrors lest anyone believe you have achieved anything other than the corporate offer. The complexity of different bases, rostering rules and working arrangements provides a suitable smoke screen to prevent the other unions in BA from seeing what is actually going on. The BACC have very detailed information on who is earning what and where and what the overall pot looks like before and after. Open Skies will run under it's own CC and will be responsible for it's own affairs, although with their pilots on the master seniority list there would undoubtedly be close links to the BACC.
So how is the BACC getting on with fitting the City Flyer people on the seniority list? Since their work becomes mainline work in two years time and since many of them will have worked for a BA subsidiay for 8 years or more longer than any OS pilot, surely a space should be created on the BA list for these people now, ahead of OS.
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The Cityflyer issue only becomes an issue if the RJs arent replaced or are replaced by aircraft larger than 100 seats. So until the fleet announcement theres nothing to do.