BALPA and BA talks breakdown

[overstress]

BA does not make the law in the UK. There is no strike to 'deem' anything.

BALPA have gone to Court to ensure that the strike, when it comes is legal and BA don't know when that will be.

Meanwhile, our management have to watch the share price sinking lower - wouldn't it be better to have meaningful discussions with the pilots?

[Tandemrotor]

I find it very informative to review previous postings of contributors here. For example, who said this???

T&C's for pilots generally are very poor for the work that we do. They have been eroded year on year down to the lowest common denominator. It is time that we ALL stood our ground and started making the powers that be listen. I understand there is unrest at Monarch as well as GB recently. Pay needs to increase and stay ahead of inflation. Maybe it is time to leave flying and look for something else.

Could it be that ex GB (now Easyjet) Airbus pilot called Iva harden? Surely not!

Why not just support the guys that ARE prepared to stand their ground rather than just talking about it? You clearly don't understand much about the BA situation, so why not just leave it. You have nothing to lose (apparently!) Only the BA pilots do!

Did you get that job with TAG?

Or will you be pursuing your 'many interests' outside of aviation?

[BAengineering]

For those of you who can't remember the Gate Gourmet dispute just 3 years ago.

GATE GOURMET DISPUTE

That's when ground staff walked out (Tug drivers and loaders) for an afternoon. Remember the chaos that ensued?

Imagine what will happen when the pilots decide not to go? Well they can't train the management in the art of flying, although WW may have ago! There is now a core of management trained to drive the tugs and man the checkin desks, a little late to put in the contingency after the horse has bolted, but hey ho!

Just saw the simulators have been block booked for next month, maybe they will try and get the waterworld luvies up to speed with the controls before the high court ruling comes in. Indeed our highly paid management colleagues are nearly superhuman, they can load the plane, check our passengers in, push back the aircraft themselves and then shin up the lower 41 and fly her!

We really should be proud of their multi skilled approach to running an airline into the ground.

[900]

Solidarity Comrades?

Flying Tom,
I hope that is intended ironically.
I cannot for the life of me imagine that Che could ever have wanted his image to be used to further the cause of commercial pilots at BA - hardly the oppressed!!
Bless!!!

[900]

Come Clean Then ...

FlyingTom posted:
"Thanks for all the support on Saturday. Thanks for all the pledges to the strike fund too. Quite looking forward to when this thing finally kicks-off. BA can run but they can't hide (behind their lawyers)."
BALPA has been robust in rebutting BA's - I think the term obfuscation has been used - err representation of the facts.
So come clean then BALPA.
How many actual BA pilots showed up?
If we take as accurate the 1150 figure (why not?). Even if you accept that all those pilots flying, down route or resting (2,000 of 3,200 really??)
That, on the face of it doesn't leave many who didn't turn up. Unless those that did brought along the WHAGS & children, BASSA, Engineers, hangers-on.
Then, of those that could, how many did? And where was the mass media coverage promised (begged for)?
FlyingTom, perversely enough you have a point. You want to strike apparently and the media won't be remotely bothered unless there is one.
I genuinely pray there won't be one and anyone reading my history knows that I'm not a supporter of this cause.
I also do not feel that BALPA's performance should go uncriticised. Particularly their PR - called it mostly wrong and timed it mostly wrong.

[Hand Solo]

Unless those that did brought along the WHAGS & children, BASSA, Engineers, hangers-on.

Amazing that they should do that at a "Family Support Rally". Whatever next, parents turning up at school sports day to swell the numbers? FYI, the 1150 figure came from the Metropolitan Police based upon their crowd density estimates. But presumably their estimates are not to be trusted either.

And where was the mass media coverage promised (begged for)?

Promised to whom, by whom? I was told there would be media coverage and there was. BALPA didn't promise anyone the march would be on the front page of the Sundays or leading the Six O'Clock news. Perhaps you have confused yourself 900?

You want to strike apparently and the media won't be remotely bothered unless there is one

Incorrect on the first point. Correct on the second, and why should they?

I also do not feel that BALPA's performance should go uncriticised. Particularly their PR - called it mostly wrong and timed it mostly wrong.

Incorrect on both points I'd say, unless you can provide some hard evidence. There PR has been far more effective than BAs and the timing is largely out of their hands.

I'm sure you are against the BALPAs action, but on the other hand we can all see that you are highly selective with the facts and prefer to masquerade your opinions as facts and so your views are largely irrelevant to those directly involved.

[dallas dude]

900

Interesting take on the day, the purpose of which you appear to have completely mis-read.

I'm quite sure that if the march was held primarily to raise "public/media awareness", it would have been so designed.

As I was walking alongside the BALPA members even the Police Officers marshalling the event were saying how "polite" everyone was and that "To get on the telly you all need to start chanting". The marching participants' behaviour was priceless, especially the many kids walking alongside their BA pilot parents.

The point of this march, IMHO, was to ensure that the only people who really matter - the pilots who WILL BE walking when called to do so - and their families had the opportunity to bond.

They did. Perfectly. As Jim McAuslan said "We are many".

WW better figure out how to hop out of the corner he's painting himself into quickly, before Martin Broughton turns to him and says "Willie, what were you thinking?".

Saturday's event was a marvelous display of family awareness. Well done all.

DD

(thanks for the t-shirt!)

[Shaka Zulu]

900,

Interesting that you now snipe away at someone posting a picture.

Arguments count and for all I know and having read most of your posts (ai on this thread and on others) it's clear that you do not have many.

You are a BA manager of some sort with an opinion of some sort. Because you're posts on the BA forum are now proof-written, here is your chance to post freely an answer to an honest question.

What comes up time and time again is this little bombshell, (mentioned by you twice or three times):

The CC from OpenSkies would be a puppet of the Mainline CC and henceforth there will be a big drive to ratchet up T&C's to mainlines as soon as possible making the OS setup unviable.

A complete red herring if you ask me. Why would any Union that sees job growth want to squeeze an operation that tight it has to close. Therefore losing jobs & genuine growth within a limited growth industry.
Tell me you don't honestly think that the OS CC will put unreasonably demands in to make their business unviable?

(question b: what do you think is the honest reason as to why OS pilots shouldn't be BA pilots on the BA Master seniority list)

Many thanks

[Kelly Smunt]

It shows the City do not like prolonged uncertainty by looking at what the share price is doing.I expect shares to be below the £ 1.00 level when the airline comes to a standstill (hostile takeover maybe).The only problem the pilots have is if the airline is declared bankrupt.This will reduce somewhat their projected pensions and 50,000 other members of staff.
I think the city will intervene before the collapse and there will be a new LT in place.The pilots are sitting pretty in the knowledge that should they be sacked and not re instated under the same terms they can sue for damages (in addition to statuary damages) Plus with arguably the best CV in the world another job in the not too far distant.Who is going to blink first? I know where my money is on.

[pingopango]

I can imagine all the other Airlines queuing up to employ the pilots that brought down an airline. Come on get real and bring some value.

[Orion Man]

I can imagine all the other Airlines queuing up to employ the pilots that brought down an airline

I can't imagine all the other airlines queuing up to employ the former BA management that brought down an airline.

Regards

Orion Man

[411A]

It is hardly likely that BA will be 'brought down'.
What is likely is that BA management will give a little, BALPA will give a whole lot, and sweetness and light will previal.
The shareholders will be pleased, and BA management will be treated as heros...and Open Skies will commence ops.

[CanAV8R]

411

For your 5033th post (jeez get a life) you almost hit the nail on the head. Only mistake was that BALPA may have to give a little and BA will have to give the most. BA's weak case will eventually be pushed aside and the pilots can get on with putting down the tools.

If you want to place a wager on it, I know 3000 other people who might back me.

[sidtheesexist]

pingopango - I would politely suggest that it is YOU who is in need of the reality check and a value injection - what a laugh

I would refer you back to biddedout's earlier postings............for you to suggest that a group of inherantly moderate and logical-thinking professionals (that's us pilots by the way ) would want to, and be responsible for, bringing down our airline is laughable.

I can only conclude that you are a deluded waterworld, management troll. Poor beggar........

[amos2]

How does that old saying go?..."those that ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them!"...

or, something like that.

Anyway, for what it's worth, check out the history of the 1989 Australian Airline Pilots dispute...it will be of assistance to you.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

The key to any war is choosing which battle to fight. That moment has come and the BA pilots simply have to fight this battle. If they lose this, they are dead in the water. I hope they have the resolve to see this through because it looks to me like their bluff will be called. Every single commercial pilot in Western Europe should be looking at this and willing their BA colleagues to win because if they do not, then this is the beginning of the end for us all. The BA pilot cause is just and reasonable - this is not about how many varieties of cheese appear on the cheese board, it is about ensuring that a Trojan horse is not planted in the middle of the BA pilot fraternity. I work for a low cost company and am very happy there, but the BA pilot fraternity have my complete support.

[Basil]

900,

Flying Tom,
I hope that is intended ironically.
I cannot for the life of me imagine that Che could ever have wanted his image to be used to further the cause of commercial pilots at B

I'd always thought that anything with Senor Guevara's picture on it was, by definition, a joke.

Anyway, apologies for the drift and 'Steady!' the BA pilots
Let's see WW as another who doesn't get a K.

[Stoic]

Amos - some history

Anyway, for what it's worth, check out the history of the 1989 Australian Airline Pilots dispute...it will be of assistance to you.

I think you will find that in 1989 the Australian pilots were pitted against the Australian government and therefore it was a totally different scenario from today's BALPA/BA conflict.

From Google

Qantas and Australian Airlines (formerly Trans-Australian Airlines) were fully government-owned from 1947 to 1993. During that time, Qantas maintained the best safety record in the world and one of the world's best track records for being on time. With a fully unionised work force, workers had a secure, reasonable wage.

Regards

Stoic

[amos2]

Perhaps you might like to do some further research, Stoic.

It would be to your advantage.

[Stoic]

Why?

Hi Amos

Perhaps you might like to do some further research, Stoic.

Well, here is a bit more from Google, Wikipedia:

In that dispute, we saw a Prime Minister actively facilitating: Use of 'the troops' (RAAF) to help defeat the walkout by a key body of airline employees; The bringing of common law actions for breach of contract against individual pilots to the same end; Use of Sections 45D and 45E of the Trade Practices Act for the same purpose; The import of foreign pilots to take the place of Australian pilots who had withdrawn their labour; The import of charter aircraft (and associated foreign crews) to supply services being withheld by the Australian pilots; and even The provision of some kind of financial assistance designed to assist a major employer (Ansett Airlines) and thus help 'keep it in the field' until the Australian Federation of Air Pilots had been crushed. Mr Hawke's zeal in all these matters thus went even further than our own. The H.R. Nicholls Society had never argued that a body of employees should not have the right to be represented by a union (or Association) of their own free choosing, a basic right which Mr Hawke and Sir Peter Abels were determined to deny to the pilots. [1]

It would be to your advantage.

Can you please elaborate and explain why it would be to my advantage to do some further research?

Kind regards

S