BALPA and BA talks breakdown
Junior trash
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And some international support which we're very pleased about. Thanks guys
Urgent Call to all ALPA Pilots: Informational Picket on Saturday to support British Airways Pilots Fight against Alter-ego Airline
Picketing Events on Saturday, March 15 in Los Angeles, Newark, New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington, D.C.
Join ALPA pilots who are informational picketing this Saturday, March 15, to demonstrate staunch solidarity with British Airways (BA) pilots who are protesting their managements attempt to start a new airline without using pilots from the BA seniority list. The stakes are high for all airline pilots.
OpenSkies will operate directly between European points outside the United Kingdom and the United States. BA management is starting OpenSkies using BA airliners, the BA brand, and BA profits that are the result of BA pilots professionalism, but management wont use BA pilots.
Just as New York Air was the first alter-ego challenge in the U.S. after airline deregulation, OpenSkies is the first alter-ego challenge for European pilots after the first-stage US/EU Open Skies agreement. If BA is successful, it would mean that the hard-earned benefits contractually guaranteed to those who have invested the most in their airlines could be lost. And if it is successful, other European airlines will surely follow suit.
BA pilots deserve and demand access to OpenSkies flying;a right they have earned as partners in BAs success. Join pilots across the country and around the globe on March 15.
When: Saturday, March 15
2:00 pm 4:00 pm local time
Where: International terminal at:
John F. Kennedy Intl Airport **8:00 am & Noon local time
Los Angeles Intl Airport
Newark Intl Airport
San Francisco Intl Airport
Seattle-Tacoma Intl Airport
Washington Dulles Intl Airport
Picketing Events on Saturday, March 15 in Los Angeles, Newark, New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington, D.C.
Join ALPA pilots who are informational picketing this Saturday, March 15, to demonstrate staunch solidarity with British Airways (BA) pilots who are protesting their managements attempt to start a new airline without using pilots from the BA seniority list. The stakes are high for all airline pilots.
OpenSkies will operate directly between European points outside the United Kingdom and the United States. BA management is starting OpenSkies using BA airliners, the BA brand, and BA profits that are the result of BA pilots professionalism, but management wont use BA pilots.
Just as New York Air was the first alter-ego challenge in the U.S. after airline deregulation, OpenSkies is the first alter-ego challenge for European pilots after the first-stage US/EU Open Skies agreement. If BA is successful, it would mean that the hard-earned benefits contractually guaranteed to those who have invested the most in their airlines could be lost. And if it is successful, other European airlines will surely follow suit.
BA pilots deserve and demand access to OpenSkies flying;a right they have earned as partners in BAs success. Join pilots across the country and around the globe on March 15.
When: Saturday, March 15
2:00 pm 4:00 pm local time
Where: International terminal at:
John F. Kennedy Intl Airport **8:00 am & Noon local time
Los Angeles Intl Airport
Newark Intl Airport
San Francisco Intl Airport
Seattle-Tacoma Intl Airport
Washington Dulles Intl Airport
Shaka Zulu
Very true, it does sound like we are seeing the same old pattern all over again. In their last venture, BA bought a job lot of second hand previous generation long lease aircraft. Once they had nicked the LHR slots that came with them, they were at a loss to know what to do next. “Make do, get into profit or be sold or closed” was the message with an associated sob story about the parent not being able to afford to invest in more suitable equipment (£350mil would have helped). The result was a five year experiment in probing and testing less well represented staff to see what they could get away with until the leases were more manageable. It was also a very handy vheicle for rubbing out BAR.
At one point, Baconnect were cancelling flights and letting their customers down due to lack of cabin crew. At the same time, BAConnect had cabin crew on loan to BA London discretely “helping out” on 767 long-haul. Under order from Waterside no doubt. Another test to see what they could get away with perhaps, or another manager after some Waterside smarty points for keeping Maniline going. Shame he neglected his own patch.
Was very tempting to go up to the departure lounge and tell passengers that they weren’t going to be travelling today, because their regional cabin crew had been sent to work for another company for the weekend and were currently in Barbados. I wish I had.
You have every reason to be wary of their assurance.
As for their request for less pay-points. Didn’t the pilots agree to this in the Highlands and Islands Division? Look what happened to that.
The likelyhood of it loosing money (see BA's track record) is far higher.
Very true, it does sound like we are seeing the same old pattern all over again. In their last venture, BA bought a job lot of second hand previous generation long lease aircraft. Once they had nicked the LHR slots that came with them, they were at a loss to know what to do next. “Make do, get into profit or be sold or closed” was the message with an associated sob story about the parent not being able to afford to invest in more suitable equipment (£350mil would have helped). The result was a five year experiment in probing and testing less well represented staff to see what they could get away with until the leases were more manageable. It was also a very handy vheicle for rubbing out BAR.
At one point, Baconnect were cancelling flights and letting their customers down due to lack of cabin crew. At the same time, BAConnect had cabin crew on loan to BA London discretely “helping out” on 767 long-haul. Under order from Waterside no doubt. Another test to see what they could get away with perhaps, or another manager after some Waterside smarty points for keeping Maniline going. Shame he neglected his own patch.
Was very tempting to go up to the departure lounge and tell passengers that they weren’t going to be travelling today, because their regional cabin crew had been sent to work for another company for the weekend and were currently in Barbados. I wish I had.
You have every reason to be wary of their assurance.
As for their request for less pay-points. Didn’t the pilots agree to this in the Highlands and Islands Division? Look what happened to that.
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Media & Press • Thursday, March 13, 2008
NEWS from BALPA
British Airline Pilots’ Association
12th March 2008
PILOTS ACCUSE BA OF MISREPRESENTATION
The British Airline Pilots' Association today accused British Airways of misrepresenting their position in their dispute with the airline and expressed concern as to whether BA really wanted a negotiated settlement.
www.baplane-bapilot.orgWhen talks between BALPA and BA broke down on Friday night of last week, BA announced if strike dates were given it would go to the High Court to seek an injunction preventing the strike, basing their case on a novel approach, the use of Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome.
BALPA did not accept this argument but rather than announce strike dates it took the initiative and referred the matter to the High Court to seek a ruling on whether BA's reliance on Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome had any bearing on the industrial dispute.
The Court has agreed to 'stop the clock' on the 28 days during which the union must serve notice of a strike to allow the High Court to decide the matter.
'We have been shocked to learn today that BA has entirely misrepresented the position to the media,' BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan declared.
'BA said that BALPA recognises that the airline has a strong legal case that any strike action would be unlawful. Nothing could be further from the truth.'
BALPA General Secretary, Jim McAuslanBALPA said that such tactics are clearly unhelpful and are likely to hinder a negotiated settlement. Perhaps, BALPA says, that is BA's objective.
'What has happened is that BA has raised a novel point of law, using the Treaty of Rome.' Jim McAuslan said.
The Court's determination will have huge implications for all employers and trade unions.
'Our view is that the point raised by BA has no bearing on an industrial dispute such as the one we have with BA because it plans to outsource BA pilots' jobs and our actions are both legitimate and proportionate.
'What makes matters worse is that BA is saying publicly that our decision to take the matter to the High Court and not announce a strike is proof that we accept that BA has a "strong case". This is outrageous. We have not announced strike dates because we wish the Court to consider the matter with great care and without pressure. We also thought it right to make clear to the public, with whom we have no dispute, that there will be no industrial action over the Easter period.
'BA's misrepresentation of our position is a disgrace and one which has angered their pilots.'
NEWS from BALPA
British Airline Pilots’ Association
12th March 2008
PILOTS ACCUSE BA OF MISREPRESENTATION
The British Airline Pilots' Association today accused British Airways of misrepresenting their position in their dispute with the airline and expressed concern as to whether BA really wanted a negotiated settlement.
www.baplane-bapilot.orgWhen talks between BALPA and BA broke down on Friday night of last week, BA announced if strike dates were given it would go to the High Court to seek an injunction preventing the strike, basing their case on a novel approach, the use of Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome.
BALPA did not accept this argument but rather than announce strike dates it took the initiative and referred the matter to the High Court to seek a ruling on whether BA's reliance on Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome had any bearing on the industrial dispute.
The Court has agreed to 'stop the clock' on the 28 days during which the union must serve notice of a strike to allow the High Court to decide the matter.
'We have been shocked to learn today that BA has entirely misrepresented the position to the media,' BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan declared.
'BA said that BALPA recognises that the airline has a strong legal case that any strike action would be unlawful. Nothing could be further from the truth.'
BALPA General Secretary, Jim McAuslanBALPA said that such tactics are clearly unhelpful and are likely to hinder a negotiated settlement. Perhaps, BALPA says, that is BA's objective.
'What has happened is that BA has raised a novel point of law, using the Treaty of Rome.' Jim McAuslan said.
The Court's determination will have huge implications for all employers and trade unions.
'Our view is that the point raised by BA has no bearing on an industrial dispute such as the one we have with BA because it plans to outsource BA pilots' jobs and our actions are both legitimate and proportionate.
'What makes matters worse is that BA is saying publicly that our decision to take the matter to the High Court and not announce a strike is proof that we accept that BA has a "strong case". This is outrageous. We have not announced strike dates because we wish the Court to consider the matter with great care and without pressure. We also thought it right to make clear to the public, with whom we have no dispute, that there will be no industrial action over the Easter period.
'BA's misrepresentation of our position is a disgrace and one which has angered their pilots.'
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Joseph Goebbels would be proud you gents.....
Within BA we have a Flight Operations internet forum, the same as this one.
There is no anonymity and is open to the many hundreds of Flt Ops ground staff aswell as the BA pilots and management.
BA has always used this as a propaganda tool pedaling there mis truths, but some of our more 'active' members have quite rightly been challenging the management diatribe.
Over the last few days, BA Flt Ops management lackies have taken to calling up the BA pilots who have had the audacity to make a post that is not in agreement to the BA management lies and
HAVE THREATENED THEIR OWN PILOTS WITH LEGAL ACTION
if they do not retract, delete or change the post ont this in house, private internet forum !
BALPA has now recommended to us that we do not post on the forum because of this.
WE have seen nothing yet, - the depths too which BA management will descend is truly subterranean.
For people who do not work for BA or understand the dynamics within BA Flt Ops - I hope you are starting to get an idea of just how morally bankrupt our so called leaders really are.
There is no anonymity and is open to the many hundreds of Flt Ops ground staff aswell as the BA pilots and management.
BA has always used this as a propaganda tool pedaling there mis truths, but some of our more 'active' members have quite rightly been challenging the management diatribe.
Over the last few days, BA Flt Ops management lackies have taken to calling up the BA pilots who have had the audacity to make a post that is not in agreement to the BA management lies and
HAVE THREATENED THEIR OWN PILOTS WITH LEGAL ACTION
if they do not retract, delete or change the post ont this in house, private internet forum !
BALPA has now recommended to us that we do not post on the forum because of this.
WE have seen nothing yet, - the depths too which BA management will descend is truly subterranean.
For people who do not work for BA or understand the dynamics within BA Flt Ops - I hope you are starting to get an idea of just how morally bankrupt our so called leaders really are.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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There's always your own forum here.....................no collar feeling.
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There's always your own forum here.....................no collar feeling.
BAPLA...all talk, no action, it seems.
Where has their collective backbone gone, I wonder?
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biddeout
Probably off topic but I feel I must correct you about BA connect staff 'helping out' on the 767.
Clearly only crew who were checked out on that aircraft were eligble to go, so the majority of crew were ruled out.
Crew who went were on leave, days off, or part-time crew on fixed working patterns.
Some trips were turned down and I am unaware that any Connect flights were cancelled due to lack of crew and consider it highly unlikely.
I do agree with you about BAR.
Good luck to all involved.
Probably off topic but I feel I must correct you about BA connect staff 'helping out' on the 767.
Clearly only crew who were checked out on that aircraft were eligble to go, so the majority of crew were ruled out.
Crew who went were on leave, days off, or part-time crew on fixed working patterns.
Some trips were turned down and I am unaware that any Connect flights were cancelled due to lack of crew and consider it highly unlikely.
I do agree with you about BAR.
Good luck to all involved.
Fair enough, but the fact was that several flights (one of mine included) were cancelled at least one weekend. Reason - lack of cabin crew. I was aware because I saw a load of them checking in to position down to LHR on the Friday evening.
If these 767 rated people were volunteering to work on a day off, or during leave, why weren't they being asked to do similar for their own company?
Ah got it. Barbados v Belfast. No brainer!
Our OPS staff who who were trying to manage a REGIONAL operation were furious when they found out, which suggests it was all slightly underhand. We heard all the excuses but no one was convinced.
If these 767 rated people were volunteering to work on a day off, or during leave, why weren't they being asked to do similar for their own company?
Ah got it. Barbados v Belfast. No brainer!
Our OPS staff who who were trying to manage a REGIONAL operation were furious when they found out, which suggests it was all slightly underhand. We heard all the excuses but no one was convinced.
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I was never aware of any crewing issues at MAN despite what the flying public may have been told. Therefore there were never any Belfast/Barbados choices to be made.
It may have been kept quiet to avoid 'it's not fair' issues in the crew room and possibly to avoid any union issues.
The crew were used - I think they all knew that but were willing participants not just because of the destinations but because it was an opportunity for long-haul flying.
I'll bow out now and allow the thread to go back on topic - perhaps a message from this 'diversion' is that there will always be people willing to accept whatever BA dishes out in exchange for the opportunity to work for them.
It may have been kept quiet to avoid 'it's not fair' issues in the crew room and possibly to avoid any union issues.
The crew were used - I think they all knew that but were willing participants not just because of the destinations but because it was an opportunity for long-haul flying.
I'll bow out now and allow the thread to go back on topic - perhaps a message from this 'diversion' is that there will always be people willing to accept whatever BA dishes out in exchange for the opportunity to work for them.
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411A,
It seems many appear to have you on ignore on this forum.
What is with you exactly ? You appear to be ignoring an emphatic mandate to take industrial action by 86% of 90% of BA's union membership which in turn is an extremely high proportion of its pilot workforce.
You seem to delight in provoking, when the reason for delay in action is a legal one. I think I might just add you to the ignore list as your posts are quite pathetic.
Good luck you guys at BA and I hope you get a good turn out this weekend
Regards
Orion Man
It seems many appear to have you on ignore on this forum.
BAPLA...all talk, no action, it seems.
Where has their collective backbone gone, I wonder?
Where has their collective backbone gone, I wonder?
You seem to delight in provoking, when the reason for delay in action is a legal one. I think I might just add you to the ignore list as your posts are quite pathetic.
Good luck you guys at BA and I hope you get a good turn out this weekend
Regards
Orion Man
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Calling for a strike just as the other long-hauls are about to move in on the cushy airport you've had all to yourselves for years? Your competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee - I bet they can't believe their luck. They'll be on their knees begging for this to get nasty. BA and BALPA collectively pushing the self-destruct button just at the point when they need unity and reinforcement.
BA's had it easy for a long time. It's about to find out what real competition's all about.
BA's had it easy for a long time. It's about to find out what real competition's all about.
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You appear to be ignoring an emphatic mandate to take industrial action by 86% of 90% of BA's union membership which in turn is an extremely high proportion of its pilot workforce.
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BA's had it easy for a long time. It's about to find out what real competition's all about.
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Not on the Heathrow-US routes it's not. But it's about to be.
)
Controversial, moi?
The TUC and all the other unions in the country must be over the moon with BALPA paying all the lawyers to go to court over this.
Last edited by M.Mouse; 14th Mar 2008 at 17:02.
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I am really sorry to say this but BALPA has become a toothless monster. Backing down over the Easter period.....is BALPA running scared from WW? Have BALPA been threatened by BA over incurred cost of strike. What is this march about tomorrow...a Saturday, marching to BA headquarters....I assume WW will not be there.....pointless. Does the BA threat of legal action have creedence? I fear the momentum has been lost and possibly, just possibly there is a real threat of WW breaking the union....gulp !!! BALPA should come out guns blazing if they are to fight what could be their last fight....better to fight and lose than never fight at all. Stop the political pussyfooting and fight.