BALPA and BA talks breakdown
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have you thought this through?
I have no axe to grind here - except perhaps that in my occasional encounters with BA management I've been less than impressed.
But I wonder if there is any way pilots can emerge victorious from this, short of a BA climbdown? If there's a strike, it's reasonable to assume the company's interests and business prospects will be damaged. Surely that will damage the interests of the pilots too? Aren't you in a bind here?
But I wonder if there is any way pilots can emerge victorious from this, short of a BA climbdown? If there's a strike, it's reasonable to assume the company's interests and business prospects will be damaged. Surely that will damage the interests of the pilots too? Aren't you in a bind here?
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We are in a bind here - quite right - damned if we do and damned if we don't.
We either (1) believe BA's assurances and back down or (2) stick to our guns and heed the not inconsiderable evidence/experience/opinion and face down this THREAT NOW...........
What do you recommend?
We either (1) believe BA's assurances and back down or (2) stick to our guns and heed the not inconsiderable evidence/experience/opinion and face down this THREAT NOW...........
What do you recommend?
PPRuNe Person
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The company is rather hoping we will back down. As to our interests, we have looked into a crystal ball provided by QANTAS and others, seen how BA plans our future and decided to alter it....
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I don't know enough about it to recommend anything. I'm assuming you're acting in a rational way, so I was wondering what is the hard-headed calculation that dictates your choice between "damned if we do and damned if we don't"?
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what is the hard-headed calculation that dictates your choice between "damned if we do and damned if we don't"?
No brainer really.
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I confess to being caught between a rock and a hard place!
On the one hand, a bunch of losers, who are prepared to work for nothing, are trying to deny my family their income.
On the other, they are expecting ME to stand up to fight for THEM when they obviously have never had the BALLS to do it for themselves! (they can't ALL be french! - Or BA retirees - Low life!)
I guess in truth I have less to lose than them. Yes, this venture will be used as a weapon to attack me. On the other hand, this roster (and crap pay) will kill them long before that happens! (Did I tell you there were only 3 out of 3000 BA pilots who applied for secondment??
I wonder why?)
Or they will expect to move on. But just remember the recruitment ban! We WILL remember your names, and will make sure others do too!
Enjoy!
On the one hand, a bunch of losers, who are prepared to work for nothing, are trying to deny my family their income.
On the other, they are expecting ME to stand up to fight for THEM when they obviously have never had the BALLS to do it for themselves! (they can't ALL be french! - Or BA retirees - Low life!)
I guess in truth I have less to lose than them. Yes, this venture will be used as a weapon to attack me. On the other hand, this roster (and crap pay) will kill them long before that happens! (Did I tell you there were only 3 out of 3000 BA pilots who applied for secondment??
I wonder why?)Or they will expect to move on. But just remember the recruitment ban! We WILL remember your names, and will make sure others do too!
Enjoy!
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 10th Mar 2008 at 22:43.
So leading on from the comments after JMGhee, it appears that this whole thing is simply about trust.
You have all been selected by your management for having the following qualities; leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, together with well developed customer service skills and teamwork. That’s what the advert says, so you should be relatively stable and pragmatic bunch of people.
Three thousand of you have thought long and hard about this developing situation and have come to the conclusion that it is the better of two evils to go for an option which may do damage to your company and yourselves, rather than to rely on the word of a leadership team which is assuring you that there will be no detriment to your terms and conditions in the future.
As a shareholder, I find that rather worrying. I hope the board does too.
Was this apparent total lack of trust the same in the days of RE, or is it a recent thing?
You have all been selected by your management for having the following qualities; leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, together with well developed customer service skills and teamwork. That’s what the advert says, so you should be relatively stable and pragmatic bunch of people.
Three thousand of you have thought long and hard about this developing situation and have come to the conclusion that it is the better of two evils to go for an option which may do damage to your company and yourselves, rather than to rely on the word of a leadership team which is assuring you that there will be no detriment to your terms and conditions in the future.
As a shareholder, I find that rather worrying. I hope the board does too.
Was this apparent total lack of trust the same in the days of RE, or is it a recent thing?
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Advice
I have entered a number of comments on this subject and have been assumed to be an independent travel agent. In fact it is my wife who is the agent but as a former Royal Air Force officer and now a mere PPL have a keen interest in the fortunes of BA - as well as having many pilots as friends. However, in my current role as a Business Adviser, albeit to medium sized companies rather than large ones I can see the outcome of a strike possibly hurting the pilots more that the company. BUT in either case damaging long term prospects in one way or another for both.
Being a union leader - and a BA manager for that matter - is is not easy in a conflict situation but my experience tells me THERE IS ALWAYS A COMPROMISE somewhere. I do not wish to see the pilots remain dissatisfied neither do I wish to see BA damaged so the answer has to be some give on both sides.
Even if the BALPA negotiators feel there is no give they must endeavour to find a way to keep talking. Perhaps the pending strike may just make the management willing to have one more go. If they do for goodness sake take it. There is a solution out there. Good luck.
Being a union leader - and a BA manager for that matter - is is not easy in a conflict situation but my experience tells me THERE IS ALWAYS A COMPROMISE somewhere. I do not wish to see the pilots remain dissatisfied neither do I wish to see BA damaged so the answer has to be some give on both sides.
Even if the BALPA negotiators feel there is no give they must endeavour to find a way to keep talking. Perhaps the pending strike may just make the management willing to have one more go. If they do for goodness sake take it. There is a solution out there. Good luck.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Was this apparent total lack of trust the same in the days of RE, or is it a recent thing?
Perhaps the pending strike may just make the management willing to have one more go. If they do for goodness sake take it. There is a solution out there. Good luck.
PPRuNe Person
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biddedout:
Your posting is well-written and perceptive. BALPA members have had written assurances in the recent past. In that instance, pilots took lower terms and conditions in the 'Regions' to help fund a shiny new fleet of 21 Airbuses. Written assurances were given.
Then, 'market forces' took over, the 10 Airbuses that had appeared were shunted off to LHR and the assurances were proved worthless. The remainder of the fleet was never bought, the pilots didn't 'get their money back'.
Fortunately, the current BACC are more astute than their colleagues from that time.
Willy Walsh has promised us assurances "in his own blood" - his words. We don't want that, we would prefer old-fashioned ink on a binding agreement.
rather than to rely on the word of a leadership team which is assuring you that there will be no detriment to your terms and conditions in the future.
Then, 'market forces' took over, the 10 Airbuses that had appeared were shunted off to LHR and the assurances were proved worthless. The remainder of the fleet was never bought, the pilots didn't 'get their money back'.
Fortunately, the current BACC are more astute than their colleagues from that time.
Willy Walsh has promised us assurances "in his own blood" - his words. We don't want that, we would prefer old-fashioned ink on a binding agreement.
Last edited by overstress; 11th Mar 2008 at 00:01.
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Some questions
Hi,
I've been researching this basis for strike action and I am interested in BA's threat of injunction. I work as an employee representative in a unrelated industry.
I have some questions:
1. I read on the befairba website an excerpt of schedule k (http://www.befairba.org/getattachment/efb36008-b66e-40bc-abbd-e7c2889d36af/BACC-Response-to-British-Airways-Q-A.aspx ). This gives assurances that any planes flown out of LGW/ LHR and in the UK must be flown by pilots on the seniority list. This looks like a concrete guarantee that OS pilots will never fly out of London or be involved in the w patters already discussed. What language does BALPA want and why?
2. Why not strike when BA want to water down the clause? (to allow OS pilots to fly out of London)
3. Why did BALPA agree to the revised schedule K (circa 2003) with geographical limits. Its indicated that the previous version did not have such limits?
4. Do any BALPA members feel misrepresented by their Union in agreeing to this clause in 2003?
5. “any British Airways flying anywhere in the UK,in aircraft purchased or leased by British Airways with 100 seats or more,will be flown by British Airways Mainline Flight Crew.” Does this mean that in this current agreement OS pilots can not fly over UK airspace or ferry aircraft from London to their European bases?
5. Is there any idea what the legal case BA have against the union is?
6. What was the exact wording of the question on the ballot papers ?
If any insiders feel the above is confidential please pm me.
Stephen
I've been researching this basis for strike action and I am interested in BA's threat of injunction. I work as an employee representative in a unrelated industry.
I have some questions:
1. I read on the befairba website an excerpt of schedule k (http://www.befairba.org/getattachment/efb36008-b66e-40bc-abbd-e7c2889d36af/BACC-Response-to-British-Airways-Q-A.aspx ). This gives assurances that any planes flown out of LGW/ LHR and in the UK must be flown by pilots on the seniority list. This looks like a concrete guarantee that OS pilots will never fly out of London or be involved in the w patters already discussed. What language does BALPA want and why?
2. Why not strike when BA want to water down the clause? (to allow OS pilots to fly out of London)
3. Why did BALPA agree to the revised schedule K (circa 2003) with geographical limits. Its indicated that the previous version did not have such limits?
4. Do any BALPA members feel misrepresented by their Union in agreeing to this clause in 2003?
5. “any British Airways flying anywhere in the UK,in aircraft purchased or leased by British Airways with 100 seats or more,will be flown by British Airways Mainline Flight Crew.” Does this mean that in this current agreement OS pilots can not fly over UK airspace or ferry aircraft from London to their European bases?
5. Is there any idea what the legal case BA have against the union is?
6. What was the exact wording of the question on the ballot papers ?
If any insiders feel the above is confidential please pm me.
Stephen
Overstress.
Oh yes, the departure from the regions. That was all Osamas fault wasn’t it? A convenient excuse to be rolled out time and time again over the next three years even though it was probably down to pressure from the Locos and BA chose to run away.
BAR became BAconnect. WW gave BAacon two years to adapt to a lower cost model and turn its “losses” into a profit otherwise that was the end. A firm and decisive plan to work to perhaps, which some of us were actually stupid enough to believe.
What he conveniently forgot to tell the Bacon staff, who were desperately trying to achieve this, was that he was already into talks with a competitor to give the operation away. And he didn’t even offer his assurances in blood on that one.
As several people have suggested, strike action does seem a little excessive given the underlying issue, however, if it is all about trust, then BA have a significant responsibility for leading a bunch of generally can-do pragmatic non militant workers to this position, and they now have a responsibility at Board level for finding ways to regaining this trust. They really do need to come up with something better than the threat of a court order in order to diffuse this.
The BA way. “Working together as a team”. - Hardly.
I would love to know what the ACAS facilitator actually made of last weeks efforts. I suspect it will take months of long hard frank facilitated discussions before team BA can consider itself to be working as a joined up team.
Now when is the AGM? I feel a question coming on
Oh yes, the departure from the regions. That was all Osamas fault wasn’t it? A convenient excuse to be rolled out time and time again over the next three years even though it was probably down to pressure from the Locos and BA chose to run away.
BAR became BAconnect. WW gave BAacon two years to adapt to a lower cost model and turn its “losses” into a profit otherwise that was the end. A firm and decisive plan to work to perhaps, which some of us were actually stupid enough to believe.
What he conveniently forgot to tell the Bacon staff, who were desperately trying to achieve this, was that he was already into talks with a competitor to give the operation away. And he didn’t even offer his assurances in blood on that one. As several people have suggested, strike action does seem a little excessive given the underlying issue, however, if it is all about trust, then BA have a significant responsibility for leading a bunch of generally can-do pragmatic non militant workers to this position, and they now have a responsibility at Board level for finding ways to regaining this trust. They really do need to come up with something better than the threat of a court order in order to diffuse this.
The BA way. “Working together as a team”.
- Hardly. I would love to know what the ACAS facilitator actually made of last weeks efforts. I suspect it will take months of long hard frank facilitated discussions before team BA can consider itself to be working as a joined up team.
Now when is the AGM? I feel a question coming on
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I would love to know what the ACAS facilitator actually made of last weeks efforts.
If BALPA could tell us, I am sure they would have done so by now, no matter who's side he was on. So they are very likely legally prevented from telling us. This could mean that the facilitator was totally on our side, or it could simply mean that confidentiality clauses were signed from the outset, which covered a period of time, rather than, until the end of the talks.
We will find out where this dispute is going by the end of today I am sure. I am still maintaining hope that it will all have been sorted out and strike action will be avoided. Otherwise, I will strike for as long as our reps think it is a good idea. They have my full support, respect, and confidence.
GS-Alpha
I don't think the facilitator (Prof of IR) will have been on anyone's side, that's the whole point.
I would just be fascinated to know what he made of the body language, tactics and attitudes. If he is doing his job properly, which i am sure he is then we will never know.
I would just be fascinated to know what he made of the body language, tactics and attitudes. If he is doing his job properly, which i am sure he is then we will never know.
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Human Factor
From the BA website:
From your post last night:
Does this mean that BALPA has issued strike dates to BA and that BA have applied for an injunction? If so, and the injunction fails, can you publish the strike dates asap please.
Many thanks.
Regards
Stoic
If strike dates are issued, we will act to protect our customers by applying for an injunction.
Management have played the legal card and the result will be known tomorrow.
Many thanks.
Regards
Stoic
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Biddedout
I wish it was 'just' a trust issue. Management like to think it is but I think for the majority of us it has got other sides to the coin aswell.
With the predicament of the OpenSkies treaty comes the reality that the market will not be the same in 10/15years time. LHR won't be the Golden Runways (heavily regulated) for BA as it is now. Other financial centres of the world are making great strides in gaining importance. Our government is doing it's very best to scare businesess away and above all the green movement (albeit noble and in a sense just) is big in the UK.
Growth (real long term growth) might just have to come from different parts of Europe.
The outfit (OS) is BA and so the pilots should be too!
Agreements are made for that reason and verbal simply isn't good enough. We HAVE an agreement that regulates work, and its unfit for the new regulatory environment we currently face. Hence we seek the amendments to the famed Schedule K.
As you rightly point out, we are a non-militant workforce. Unfortunately in our and other companies we are often too laid back, and look at thinks through rose tinted spectacles and think it'll be okay.
If we don't fight for a sensible agreement now then it'll be too late.
As you well know we have offered to match the costbase BA seeks to make the setup a success. So from an investors point of view there are no reasons as to why you should be angry with us.
It's the very thing that baffles most of us!!
Most pilots tend to be pretty astute thinkers and ofcourse we won't seek to let a BA setup go bust. Remember it comes from OUR bottom line, and so will effect our bonuses (if we get one at all)
Best regards
I wish it was 'just' a trust issue. Management like to think it is but I think for the majority of us it has got other sides to the coin aswell.
With the predicament of the OpenSkies treaty comes the reality that the market will not be the same in 10/15years time. LHR won't be the Golden Runways (heavily regulated) for BA as it is now. Other financial centres of the world are making great strides in gaining importance. Our government is doing it's very best to scare businesess away and above all the green movement (albeit noble and in a sense just) is big in the UK.
Growth (real long term growth) might just have to come from different parts of Europe.
The outfit (OS) is BA and so the pilots should be too!
Agreements are made for that reason and verbal simply isn't good enough. We HAVE an agreement that regulates work, and its unfit for the new regulatory environment we currently face. Hence we seek the amendments to the famed Schedule K.
As you rightly point out, we are a non-militant workforce. Unfortunately in our and other companies we are often too laid back, and look at thinks through rose tinted spectacles and think it'll be okay.
If we don't fight for a sensible agreement now then it'll be too late.
As you well know we have offered to match the costbase BA seeks to make the setup a success. So from an investors point of view there are no reasons as to why you should be angry with us.
It's the very thing that baffles most of us!!
Most pilots tend to be pretty astute thinkers and ofcourse we won't seek to let a BA setup go bust. Remember it comes from OUR bottom line, and so will effect our bonuses (if we get one at all)
Best regards
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Does this mean that BALPA has issued strike dates to BA and that BA have applied for an injunction?
If you had a legal issue and your opponent told you he would apply for an injunction to declare it illegal, would you wait for him to try or would you make sure first?
