BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Danny and mods,
There are still one or two posts remaining from LHR747 which you may or may not wish to dispose of. That said, it could be worth leaving them - perhaps marked so that it is clear they are not from who they say they are. If we're lucky, the source will be named and shamed publicly. Many of us know privately.
Whilst people are perfectly entitled to come on here with opposing points of view, in fact that's the whole point of PPRune, I object in the strongest terms to people masquerading as those they are not. Those of us who have been here a while will probably have read and absorbed the very large disclaimer regarding this.
It is fundamentally dishonest and indicates that these individuals have neither valid arguments or sufficient credibility, both of which are essential to post on a serious topic such as this. Funny where these particular sources eminated from.....
I honestly wonder how we still manage to be in business.
HF
There are still one or two posts remaining from LHR747 which you may or may not wish to dispose of. That said, it could be worth leaving them - perhaps marked so that it is clear they are not from who they say they are. If we're lucky, the source will be named and shamed publicly. Many of us know privately.
Whilst people are perfectly entitled to come on here with opposing points of view, in fact that's the whole point of PPRune, I object in the strongest terms to people masquerading as those they are not. Those of us who have been here a while will probably have read and absorbed the very large disclaimer regarding this.
It is fundamentally dishonest and indicates that these individuals have neither valid arguments or sufficient credibility, both of which are essential to post on a serious topic such as this. Funny where these particular sources eminated from.....
I honestly wonder how we still manage to be in business.
HF
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Deleting Posts?
I think we should leave the posts on as this isn't a Stalinist state just yet. And just because someone disagrees with us doesn't mean they should be censored or abused.
Enough has already been written regarding the pros and cons of this subject. A few posts from a 'loose cannon' attempting to cause mischief isn't going to sway the overall community.
Enough has already been written regarding the pros and cons of this subject. A few posts from a 'loose cannon' attempting to cause mischief isn't going to sway the overall community.
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Does that fact that expansion has been announced at LCY that will be crewed from mainline add weight to BA's argument that Openskies won't take away jobs from mainline??
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Originally Posted by demomonkey
OS is a genuine threat to our T&Cs not initially but definitely down the line. However taking the nuclear option of striking seems like we could win the battle but overall lose the war. Moral victories are hollow.
I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.
I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.
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If you are a (BA) BALPA member and the result of a strike ballot is "Yes", you will be expected to side with the majority, irrespective of your vote - hence the term "Union". Exactly the same as if there is a "No" vote, those in favour will not be able to strike.
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Slightly confused
Please, can anyone give me a valid reason why a pilot joining open skies should not be placed on the BA mainline seniority list.
BALPA has accepted that anyone from mainline who would wish to work in this new venture would do so on lower terms and conditions (and I wonder how popular this would be).
BALPA has accepted that anyone from mainline who would wish to work in this new venture would do so on lower terms and conditions (and I wonder how popular this would be).
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BA is best
In every way the best European long haul airline. Maybe demonmonkey has never tried a business class seat in KLM or AF. If not, you should and then you would understand why many choose BA for value and quality regardless of price and will return after the strike is finished.
Good luck folks, but I do hope my son's 75/76 command course goes ahead
Good luck folks, but I do hope my son's 75/76 command course goes ahead
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Market rate
Sometimes I think people forget the considerable personal expense ( £30,000 plus) and risk involved in getting a pilots' licence, with no job guarantee. If one is lucky enough and able to gain employment in this field, shouldn't the terms and conditions reflect this ?
How many people in other professions fork out that kind of cash and dedication to achieve their goal ?
How many people in other professions fork out that kind of cash and dedication to achieve their goal ?
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30k? I wish it was, I forked out over 70k over the years to get where I am today!
I still have 35years left in this outfit. A damned sight longer than all of the managers.
So who has INVESTED in this career and who has the most interest in seeing ALL BA flying to be done by guys on the same list.
So if you wouldn't mind, I now go ahead and vote for strike.
I've done everything in my power to hear the companies point of view (personal chats etc) and yet I remain as unconvinced as I was when this faff started. I forfilled my moral obligation to hear both sides of the story but this time I shall not choose to give up even more.
Line in the sand, sorry guys!
I still have 35years left in this outfit. A damned sight longer than all of the managers.
So who has INVESTED in this career and who has the most interest in seeing ALL BA flying to be done by guys on the same list.
So if you wouldn't mind, I now go ahead and vote for strike.
I've done everything in my power to hear the companies point of view (personal chats etc) and yet I remain as unconvinced as I was when this faff started. I forfilled my moral obligation to hear both sides of the story but this time I shall not choose to give up even more.
Line in the sand, sorry guys!
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demomonkey
You need to make your choice before Feb 20. There is no middle ground.
I hope you will follow the democratic result of the ballot.
I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.
I hope you will follow the democratic result of the ballot.
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Openskies will be used as a stick with which to beat mainline pilots. That is unavoidable. However, we can reduce the damage if we can get them on a joint seniority list. I really do not wish to damage our brand through the use of industrial action. This is why I agreed to losing 30% of my pension, rather than strike, just a few months ago. However, to allow Openskies to be totally separate from the BA pilot body would be suicide to a mainline pilot.
Any future dispute between mainline pilots and BA management would result in the management response, "No problem, we'll get openskies to do the work for us instead."
No one wants to strike. You would have to be mad to want to. But BA are leaving us with no choice. This is why I have voted "yes".
Any future dispute between mainline pilots and BA management would result in the management response, "No problem, we'll get openskies to do the work for us instead."
No one wants to strike. You would have to be mad to want to. But BA are leaving us with no choice. This is why I have voted "yes".
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Think that people saying how much they have paid for their own training, £30,000 - £70,000 etc really has any bearing on it. Should be treated as any investment, value of which can go up or down, merely because you chose to spend a fortune to become a pilot doesn't mean that your employers should pay you any more if they don't have to.
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As a Cityflier pilot , and BALPA member I fully support the mainline stand against Open Skies, but i have to believe that the precident may have allready been set.
Cityflier are flying BA aircraft , Wearing BA uniform and providing the BA product day in day out on lower T&C's.
When we were created from the division and sale of Connect, The BACC refused to apply the same principals as you wish to do now, as we were classed as not suitable to be part of mainline BA.
I personally feel that this decision may come back to haunt the BACC, Scope clause or not!
Good luck to you all if it does go to the wire !!!!!
Cityflier are flying BA aircraft , Wearing BA uniform and providing the BA product day in day out on lower T&C's.
When we were created from the division and sale of Connect, The BACC refused to apply the same principals as you wish to do now, as we were classed as not suitable to be part of mainline BA.
I personally feel that this decision may come back to haunt the BACC, Scope clause or not!
Good luck to you all if it does go to the wire !!!!!
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Cityflier are flying BA aircraft , Wearing BA uniform and providing the BA product day in day out on lower T&C's.
When we were created from the division and sale of Connect, The BACC refused to apply the same principals as you wish to do now, as we were classed as not suitable to be part of mainline BA.
I personally feel that this decision may come back to haunt the BACC, Scope clause or not!
When we were created from the division and sale of Connect, The BACC refused to apply the same principals as you wish to do now, as we were classed as not suitable to be part of mainline BA.
I personally feel that this decision may come back to haunt the BACC, Scope clause or not!
Their 'OK for us, you folks to the back of the bus' attitude will do the mainline guys in every time....seems they have alienated quite a few.
Quite typical.
BALPA is a strawman....I can only laugh at their collective actions, however ineffective they are likely to be.
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How inconvenient? Not at all! Cityflyer Mk 2 was indeed drawn from the remains of BACon using the RJ100 fleet that had been nicked from Cityflyer Mk 1. The BACC offered to put all the BACX pilots on the RJ100 fleet on the BA seniority list. The BACX CC turned it down and the RJ fleet remained outside mainline for ever. They had their chance. The RJs remain specific, listed and time-limited exceptions to the Scope agreement, and come 2010 they will have to be returned to the lessors or incorporated into mainline. The RJ/Cityflyer issue is done and dusted.
411A -Your comments are as predictable as they are incorrect.
411A -Your comments are as predictable as they are incorrect.
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Good answer HS, but a little disingenuous.
You're right as far as it goes Hand old sport, but I reckon you'll have difficulty convincing the present line crews of CityFlyer. No point in fighting old battles, and personally I hope you win this one for the good of the Industry generally.
However, a decent debater would mince your argument, or at the very least draw a version of precedent from it.
Anyway, as an uninvolved individual, without going too far off thread, could you tell us all what happens to the current CityFlyer Pilots in 2010 when the deal comes to an end? Genuinely interested, albeit only for forms sake - however there are a lot of RJ 100 guys watching this space.....
However, a decent debater would mince your argument, or at the very least draw a version of precedent from it.
Anyway, as an uninvolved individual, without going too far off thread, could you tell us all what happens to the current CityFlyer Pilots in 2010 when the deal comes to an end? Genuinely interested, albeit only for forms sake - however there are a lot of RJ 100 guys watching this space.....
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Hand Solo, I agree that the RJ/Cityflyer deal is done and dusted as you put it , but the point i was trying to make is that BA already has a wholly owned susiduary airline working seperate t&c's.
Unfortunately this point may well be the undoing of any argument that BALPA may be able to make.
P.S
Just wondering, How much support Cityflyer will get from mainline when our jobs are on the line after BA decides to replace the RJ's with 318's crewed by mainline pilots ?
Unfortunately this point may well be the undoing of any argument that BALPA may be able to make.
P.S
Just wondering, How much support Cityflyer will get from mainline when our jobs are on the line after BA decides to replace the RJ's with 318's crewed by mainline pilots ?
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It won't be the undoing of the argument as the argument is the breach of the intent of Schedule K. Cityflyer is permitted under the Schedule K agreement. The argument is not about Open Skies or different terms and conditions.
If BA decide to replace the RJs with 318s at LCY then the Citiflyer pilots cannot be laid off as BA has to offer them similar employment elsewhere in the BA group, which to all intents and purposes means mainline. I'm sure BA pilots would offer moral support and some behind the scenes advice from the BACC, but direct industrial support would be classed as secondary action and as such is illegal, just as it woud be if you offered direct support to the BACC in this dispute.
TLP - when the leases come to an end Cityflyer can either wind up the operation or switch to RJ85s which are permitted under Scope. Given that they are already moving to find 85's I'd say the latter option is by far the most likely.
If BA decide to replace the RJs with 318s at LCY then the Citiflyer pilots cannot be laid off as BA has to offer them similar employment elsewhere in the BA group, which to all intents and purposes means mainline. I'm sure BA pilots would offer moral support and some behind the scenes advice from the BACC, but direct industrial support would be classed as secondary action and as such is illegal, just as it woud be if you offered direct support to the BACC in this dispute.
TLP - when the leases come to an end Cityflyer can either wind up the operation or switch to RJ85s which are permitted under Scope. Given that they are already moving to find 85's I'd say the latter option is by far the most likely.
Junior trash
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P.S
Just wondering, How much support Cityflyer will get from mainline when our jobs are on the line after BA decides to replace the RJ's with 318's crewed by mainline pilots ?
Just wondering, How much support Cityflyer will get from mainline when our jobs are on the line after BA decides to replace the RJ's with 318's crewed by mainline pilots ?