BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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If we do strike...
If we do strike is there a danger for W.W to close down the airline and start it up on new T&Cs after a while?
will BA get rid of our staff travels?
will BA know exactly who's on strike and will they keep a "note" on our file?
will BA be in a position to individualy sack those of us who are on strike?
will BA get rid of our staff travels?
will BA know exactly who's on strike and will they keep a "note" on our file?
will BA be in a position to individualy sack those of us who are on strike?
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MANBLK you are starting to come across as someone who is either too dim or too lazy to read what has already been written by people trying to answer your points. For the last time:
You might then, just, start to realise what this is all about.
- The BA CC would LIKE you to go straight into the LHS of an OpenLies aircraft.
- The BA CC would LIKE you to be able to go to the R/LHS of a BA aircraft, WHEN you have sufficient seniority, and IF YOU CHOOSE to do so.
- Why don't BA want you to do that?
- Why won't BA consider you as suitable to command a BA aircraft?
- Why won't BA consider you as suitable to be a mainline F/O?
You might then, just, start to realise what this is all about.
PPRuNe Person
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MANBLK: There are a lot of contributors to this thread who understand the importance of the issues and are patiently trying to explain them to you.
It really is time now for you to do some of your own research.
toomuchradiations: visit the BALPA website or read the communications from BALPA you have had through your letterbox.
You are a member, I presume?
It really is time now for you to do some of your own research.
toomuchradiations: visit the BALPA website or read the communications from BALPA you have had through your letterbox.
You are a member, I presume?
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I'm sorry, I don't mean to waste your time and effort. Quite simply, I totally distrust what is being officially stated by all sides in this matter. I just don't think DEC would ever happen, despite best intentions. That is the gulf between us. I'll keep quiet now, and thank you for reading my posts even if I am dim and lazy!
Last edited by MANBLK; 31st Jan 2008 at 09:02. Reason: Insertion of: I just don't think DEC would ever happen, despite best intentions.
Controversial, moi?
I totally distrust what is being officially stated by all sides in this matter.
I do hope your analytical skills are more evident when flying.
Last edited by M.Mouse; 31st Jan 2008 at 09:11.
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MANBLK, it would appear from your previous posts that you are a pilot with Jet2, that bastion of unionisation who are able to protect the Ts & Cs of your brother pilots by being so totally split between the newbies and muppets who want to be represented by IPF, TGWU or a workers comittee. 
Now we see why there is no backbone at Jet2 and you come here and have the audaciity to lecture to us about Balpa and how Ts & Cs should be left to BA management for what is quite obvious to the majority of pilots, BA or otherwise, an attack that could have ramifications for all of us.
It really takes chutzpa to be lectured on the reasons why Balpa is supporting the BA pilots in their dispute with the BA management from someone who is quite happy to roll over and take it up the rear from his own management at Jet2 and appears to be seeking a better job with OpenSkies. It's quite obvious that wherever you work there will be lower Ts & Cs than the rest of the industry.
Now we see why there is no backbone at Jet2 and you come here and have the audaciity to lecture to us about Balpa and how Ts & Cs should be left to BA management for what is quite obvious to the majority of pilots, BA or otherwise, an attack that could have ramifications for all of us.It really takes chutzpa to be lectured on the reasons why Balpa is supporting the BA pilots in their dispute with the BA management from someone who is quite happy to roll over and take it up the rear from his own management at Jet2 and appears to be seeking a better job with OpenSkies. It's quite obvious that wherever you work there will be lower Ts & Cs than the rest of the industry.
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Strangely enough, I can't change a whole airline singlehanded and Jet2's poor unionisation is hardly a valid reason why I shouldn't wish for Open Skies.
You might be surprised by Jet2. Kasual Observer, do you actually know anything about Jet2 other than what you read on Pprune? Despite the problems, I'll miss it a lot.
You might be surprised by Jet2. Kasual Observer, do you actually know anything about Jet2 other than what you read on Pprune? Despite the problems, I'll miss it a lot.
Food for thought
Forgive me, I am trying hard to decide whether I am deeply naive or just very cynical, but I can't help considering WW's true intentions in all of this. As we all know, his track record is one of unscrupulous ruthlessness and it is a commonly held belief that he has little respect for the Flight Crew community.
It is with that knowledge that I find myself questionning his true motives. Consider this:
Day One: BA pilots decide to man/woman the braziers
Day Two: WW sacks the lot
Day Three: A new contract (probably held on a floppy & currently under
lock & key somewhere in the inner sanctum of Waterworld).
It's terms? Surprise, surprise...not too disimilar from those of the intended OS startup boys & girls. OK, so it's very easy here & now to say that no-one would be prepared to sign it, but, 2 or 3 weeks into a strike, once the bills start landing on the doormat and the other half is nagging about the cost of little Cosima's ballet lessons, temptation might well take hold. Mini-cabbing doesn't pay too well these days.
Result? A huge victory for WW. He's taken BA to the wire, smashed Balpa, established OS at LHR & won a big PR coup, after all, what were those spoilt/wingeing/overpaid/over-pampered pilots campaigning about when they weren't directly threatened?
He'd have the Daily Mail & public opinion on side within minutes of it all kicking off thanks to the BA publicity machine going into well-planned overdrive.
It is with that knowledge that I find myself questionning his true motives. Consider this:
Day One: BA pilots decide to man/woman the braziers
Day Two: WW sacks the lot
Day Three: A new contract (probably held on a floppy & currently under
lock & key somewhere in the inner sanctum of Waterworld).
It's terms? Surprise, surprise...not too disimilar from those of the intended OS startup boys & girls. OK, so it's very easy here & now to say that no-one would be prepared to sign it, but, 2 or 3 weeks into a strike, once the bills start landing on the doormat and the other half is nagging about the cost of little Cosima's ballet lessons, temptation might well take hold. Mini-cabbing doesn't pay too well these days.
Result? A huge victory for WW. He's taken BA to the wire, smashed Balpa, established OS at LHR & won a big PR coup, after all, what were those spoilt/wingeing/overpaid/over-pampered pilots campaigning about when they weren't directly threatened?
He'd have the Daily Mail & public opinion on side within minutes of it all kicking off thanks to the BA publicity machine going into well-planned overdrive.
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BA pilots salary
Each year BALPA publish a list of comparative salary rates for UK airline pilots. There is consequently no great secret about rates of remuneration. The rates quoted below are extracted using these charts and are complemented with interviews with serving BA flight crew.
As a long haul captain with 20+ years you will be earning circa £135,000 (inc. allowances). How do is this known? Because the pay scales are published for all to see.
Reach pay point 24 and £150,000+. Do some overtime and the gap with £200,000 is almost closed. It is also known that several BA Captains topped £250,000 pa recently. This must surely be a source of some considerable concern for British Airways senior management who remain answerable answerable to shareholder's interests.
Even cabin crew can top £60,000 pa in BA. Admittedly this does not include those starting out in the airline. However, Cabin Service Directors (stewards and stewardesses with company titles) on long haul do very well out of the BA gravy train.
It is only a matter of time before the low cost carriers force the Full Service airlines into some hard cost cutting in order to compete in this market.
I trust this has been of some help
As a long haul captain with 20+ years you will be earning circa £135,000 (inc. allowances). How do is this known? Because the pay scales are published for all to see.
Reach pay point 24 and £150,000+. Do some overtime and the gap with £200,000 is almost closed. It is also known that several BA Captains topped £250,000 pa recently. This must surely be a source of some considerable concern for British Airways senior management who remain answerable answerable to shareholder's interests.
Even cabin crew can top £60,000 pa in BA. Admittedly this does not include those starting out in the airline. However, Cabin Service Directors (stewards and stewardesses with company titles) on long haul do very well out of the BA gravy train.
It is only a matter of time before the low cost carriers force the Full Service airlines into some hard cost cutting in order to compete in this market.
I trust this has been of some help
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Autobrake Low :
Well Autobrake , I have to say ( and I don't usually post ) it is totally discouraging and NOT at all amusing to read some of these posts by BA pilots.
Having been at the recieving end of SCOPE and BA Balpa who managed to stop my career progression by offering my potential seat to ( some very nice and professional chaps ) from HRW , and therby managing to halve my final salary pension when the company got sold and pension scheme closed , I have mixed feelings about union solidarity if one is in a wholy owned BA subsiduary.
Fight for your t&c's , fight for all Openskies pilots on the seniority list , but don't accept the "secondees get first option " offer from BA , it is unfair and undermines any Union.
I have to say ( and i dont usually post) it is a bit discouraging although somewhat amusing to read some of these posts by non BA pilots
Having been at the recieving end of SCOPE and BA Balpa who managed to stop my career progression by offering my potential seat to ( some very nice and professional chaps ) from HRW , and therby managing to halve my final salary pension when the company got sold and pension scheme closed , I have mixed feelings about union solidarity if one is in a wholy owned BA subsiduary.
Fight for your t&c's , fight for all Openskies pilots on the seniority list , but don't accept the "secondees get first option " offer from BA , it is unfair and undermines any Union.
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British Airways are currently on target to make around £1billion profit this year.
Just remind me which of our competitors are making so much money out of their hard working employees?
The World's most profitable airline!
I trust this has been of some assistance.
PS: Glad you have dropped the ridiculous claim to being a retired BA pilot.
Just remind me which of our competitors are making so much money out of their hard working employees?
The World's most profitable airline!
I trust this has been of some assistance.
PS: Glad you have dropped the ridiculous claim to being a retired BA pilot.
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Client calling Pilot...
Hi All,
If, and only if, this very interesting and informative site represents, in a general sense, the opinion/mindset of the average BA pilot, then as a client I'm all in FAVOUR of this Openskies initiative and a freeing up of competition for your niche profession.
Many industries have had to evolve over the years and for some, it has been painful, but nobody should be allowed to stand in the way of commerical competition unless life (whatever form) can be proven to be at risk.
Enjoy the gravy train while it lasts. Hell, enjoy your strike if that turns you on. But at the end of the day, you'll wipe your tears away, stop being jealous of previous generations and join the rest of the world getting on with life - hey, you might even have the balls to quit and go do something else that makes you happier... but I doubt that.
I sure hope my 1st paragraph is wrong and that this site is actually >80% populated with the whining minority
Ciao
If, and only if, this very interesting and informative site represents, in a general sense, the opinion/mindset of the average BA pilot, then as a client I'm all in FAVOUR of this Openskies initiative and a freeing up of competition for your niche profession.
Many industries have had to evolve over the years and for some, it has been painful, but nobody should be allowed to stand in the way of commerical competition unless life (whatever form) can be proven to be at risk.
Enjoy the gravy train while it lasts. Hell, enjoy your strike if that turns you on. But at the end of the day, you'll wipe your tears away, stop being jealous of previous generations and join the rest of the world getting on with life - hey, you might even have the balls to quit and go do something else that makes you happier... but I doubt that.
I sure hope my 1st paragraph is wrong and that this site is actually >80% populated with the whining minority
Ciao
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Manblk,
Where do you get the assumption there will be no DEC at OS because of BALPA
I have turned down two interviews for the LHS at OS until this is sorted.
If you havent had a Capts interview maybe you werent suitable.
OS are recruiting for both seats. Its the FOS that will be shafted if balpa lose.EG Its cheaper to hire me than it is to promte you and hire another you.
If your face doesnt fit your screwed as well. Were you in the airforce..If nt Id watch how you act in front of some of the new management. you might not be thier sort. To stop all this balpa have to win. Some outsiders, some BA and all protected.
Where do you get the assumption there will be no DEC at OS because of BALPA
I have turned down two interviews for the LHS at OS until this is sorted.
If you havent had a Capts interview maybe you werent suitable.
OS are recruiting for both seats. Its the FOS that will be shafted if balpa lose.EG Its cheaper to hire me than it is to promte you and hire another you.
If your face doesnt fit your screwed as well. Were you in the airforce..If nt Id watch how you act in front of some of the new management. you might not be thier sort. To stop all this balpa have to win. Some outsiders, some BA and all protected.
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LHR747 even if your payscale info is correct, your assertion about max remuneration is totally and utterly wrong.
We know internally who earned the most etc.(official/unofficial) And there certainly weren't a few that earned 250k+
I only know of 1 (repeat ONE) person that went over 200k. He's what we call a Martini man, doing everything on draft money (as it stood 1.5 times the normal rate of pay) and having NO (I repeat NO) homelife. Having flown with him I can say it takes a rare breed to think like him.
To put a stop to all of this overtime and some other work coverage issues BALPA have drafted changes to our bidding system which has been implemented. BA pressed BALPA that the rules were not working as INTENTED.
Rules got chaged without strike (not saying without strong opposition in certain cases!)
The intent of Bid Line Rules was not to have these things happening, so it was changed.
The intent of Schedule K has to be changed because the aviation landscape is changing rapidly with de-regulation of airspace.
And because its now not in the companies' best interest they dont want to change it.
FUNNY THAT!
We know internally who earned the most etc.(official/unofficial) And there certainly weren't a few that earned 250k+
I only know of 1 (repeat ONE) person that went over 200k. He's what we call a Martini man, doing everything on draft money (as it stood 1.5 times the normal rate of pay) and having NO (I repeat NO) homelife. Having flown with him I can say it takes a rare breed to think like him.
To put a stop to all of this overtime and some other work coverage issues BALPA have drafted changes to our bidding system which has been implemented. BA pressed BALPA that the rules were not working as INTENTED.
Rules got chaged without strike (not saying without strong opposition in certain cases!)
The intent of Bid Line Rules was not to have these things happening, so it was changed.
The intent of Schedule K has to be changed because the aviation landscape is changing rapidly with de-regulation of airspace.
And because its now not in the companies' best interest they dont want to change it.
FUNNY THAT!
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The last strike called by BA pilots was in 1980.
To anyone who can't or won't see the risks, you are either very dim, haven't read the abundance of literature that BALPA have sent out or you are a BA manager.
UKPilot2, if you really are a BA pilot why don't you call BALPA and discuss your concerns? If you PM me with your staff number I will be happy to pass on your details to one of the team. Strike action IS a serious business but so is protecting our careers.
To anyone who can't or won't see the risks, you are either very dim, haven't read the abundance of literature that BALPA have sent out or you are a BA manager.
UKPilot2, if you really are a BA pilot why don't you call BALPA and discuss your concerns? If you PM me with your staff number I will be happy to pass on your details to one of the team. Strike action IS a serious business but so is protecting our careers.
Last edited by fruitbat; 31st Jan 2008 at 14:51.
Studentindebt
Thanks for your clear summary if the situation.
If it is BA who are insisting that anyone employed in this new operation have to sit full BA selection tests before moving to LHR/LGW, I would love to hear WW explain just how it is that a pilot could be employed in thr next few months to fly a BA owned and BA insured jet across the Atlantic and yet statistically, there would be a high chance of them not being suitable to fly a similar Jet across the atlantic from an airport on the outskirts of London. Is the air different around there or something?
We had all this industrial apartheid bull in BAcon. Even if BA inherited some old duffers like myself who might not have been their type, in this case, its a completely new start up so there can be absolutely no reason to hire a different type of pilot to do exactly the same job as another in the same group of companies. This is just pathetic gameplaying on the part of BA managment. I am glad BALPA are now ressting this sort of nonsense.
Has WW passed the BA pilot selection tests yet?
Thanks for your clear summary if the situation.
It is British Airways' proposal that an Openskies direct-entry captain (or FO) will be required to undergo the BA selection process should they wish to move to LHR/LGW, the BACC has not suggested this and they are opposed to it.
We had all this industrial apartheid bull in BAcon. Even if BA inherited some old duffers like myself who might not have been their type, in this case, its a completely new start up so there can be absolutely no reason to hire a different type of pilot to do exactly the same job as another in the same group of companies. This is just pathetic gameplaying on the part of BA managment. I am glad BALPA are now ressting this sort of nonsense.
Has WW passed the BA pilot selection tests yet?
Last edited by biddedout; 31st Jan 2008 at 17:56.