BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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Skylion
Quote: "there is little in common between Jetstar which operates out of the same country and cities as Qantas mainline and Open Skies which is an entirely offshore operation. I agree that the threat to BA's pilots is outside BA and not in this relatively minor forray into direct Europe-USA operations."
2 points:
1.Replace the word country with continent and you have the same situation.
2. Not the same cities YET. A few years hence I would not not be surprised to see Open Skies flying Manchester and Glasgow to JFK/EWR and BA management will get away with it IF we don't make a stand now.
Quote: "there is little in common between Jetstar which operates out of the same country and cities as Qantas mainline and Open Skies which is an entirely offshore operation. I agree that the threat to BA's pilots is outside BA and not in this relatively minor forray into direct Europe-USA operations."
2 points:
1.Replace the word country with continent and you have the same situation.
2. Not the same cities YET. A few years hence I would not not be surprised to see Open Skies flying Manchester and Glasgow to JFK/EWR and BA management will get away with it IF we don't make a stand now.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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M. Mouse,
Skylion does a good impression of being a BA manager. Two words spring to mind - head and sand. In fact, his patronising tone almost reminds me of MMS! Personally, I'd ignore him as he has nothing useful to contribute to the debate. Actually, that almost certainly means he is a manager!
HF
Skylion does a good impression of being a BA manager. Two words spring to mind - head and sand. In fact, his patronising tone almost reminds me of MMS! Personally, I'd ignore him as he has nothing useful to contribute to the debate. Actually, that almost certainly means he is a manager!
HF
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Aaah MMS. One so junior making enemies so soon! Better hope OS works out or there'll only be the consolation of an out of seniority management command to look forward too.
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Ts&Cs OpenSkies
As a BA shareholder and retired BA pilot i wish you, Dale Moss, the very best of luck in this new venture. It is sad to hear that BALPA will be opposing your plans solely on the basis of an unfounded fear that the new airline might change BA mainline pilot's Ts&Cs. Although the Union claims their argument relates to the Scope agreement the truth is that they are fighting for their Ts&Cs. Evidence of this is there for all to read on this very forum.
So stand firm Mr Moss and take on this self interest group.
Best wishes
LHR747
So stand firm Mr Moss and take on this self interest group.
Best wishes
LHR747
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LHR747
Your comment is despicable. I can only guess that you were a non-BALPA member or a manager at BA. If you are indeed an ex-BA pilot you must have been very unpopular indeed to fly with as your comment of your colleagues disgusts me.
Your comment is despicable. I can only guess that you were a non-BALPA member or a manager at BA. If you are indeed an ex-BA pilot you must have been very unpopular indeed to fly with as your comment of your colleagues disgusts me.
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LHR747
1. We don't oppose the setting up of Open Skies, quite the contrary.
2. Our fears are hardly unfounded. If you'd bothered to read the thread, you would see why.
3. Why shouldn't we defend our Terms and Conditions, of which Scope is part?
Glad you've retired, mate. Sounds like we're better off without you. You strike me as being either as deluded as 411A or a management lackey (as that is your sole post) so you can join him on my ignore list.
Dave
It is sad to hear that BALPA will be opposing your plans solely on the basis of an unfounded fear that the new airline might change BA mainline pilot's Ts&Cs.
2. Our fears are hardly unfounded. If you'd bothered to read the thread, you would see why.
3. Why shouldn't we defend our Terms and Conditions, of which Scope is part?
Glad you've retired, mate. Sounds like we're better off without you. You strike me as being either as deluded as 411A or a management lackey (as that is your sole post) so you can join him on my ignore list.
Dave
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Why shouldn't we defend our Terms and Conditions, of which Scope is part?
Naturally I agree that staff should defend their Ts&Cs, I know I would. However opposing the formation of a separate airline, most probably crewed by US pilots, is a rather mischievous way of going about such a defense.
As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000 with overtime and allowances. No wonder they want to protect their Ts&Cs, but will these inflated salaries not result in the whole edifice tumbling down?
By what tortuous path can BA pilots expect the great majority of far lower paid British pilots to support them? Is it not bad enough that BALPA is, for all intense and purposes, a private British Airways Union cross funded by pilots and engineers from the rest of UK aviation. I well remember many years ago when, as a pilot in Britannia Airways, I was dismayed to discover that all 350 Britannia pilot's contribution to BALPA funds did not even meet BALPA's entertainment budget!
So come on BA pilots don't expect us to cry for you or be fooled about how losing this one will affect us all.
Best regards
LHR747
As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000 with overtime and allowances. No wonder they want to protect their Ts&Cs, but will these inflated salaries not result in the whole edifice tumbling down?
By what tortuous path can BA pilots expect the great majority of far lower paid British pilots to support them? Is it not bad enough that BALPA is, for all intense and purposes, a private British Airways Union cross funded by pilots and engineers from the rest of UK aviation. I well remember many years ago when, as a pilot in Britannia Airways, I was dismayed to discover that all 350 Britannia pilot's contribution to BALPA funds did not even meet BALPA's entertainment budget!
So come on BA pilots don't expect us to cry for you or be fooled about how losing this one will affect us all.
Best regards
LHR747
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LHR 747 you make me laugh. This is a dispute between BA pilots and BA. We're not asking for outside support, it is our fight to protect our jobs and those who may join BA in the future. We will stand up for ourselves thank you, it would just be nice if people understood the issues properly before posting nonsense here.
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Dear Would-love-to-have-flown-a-747LHR. I can't even be bothered to get cross, but I've got 10 minutes so....
We're not
Nope
We're not so this is irrelevant (& isn't it defence over here)
I think 1 or 2 did last year - Standards Captains with shed loads of overtime to keep our creaking training infrastructure going. BTW a salary does not by definition include overtime & allowances so nones salary went over £200 000.
See above
We don't
We put in more than we get out. Happily. Less than 50% of BALPA members are BA pilots.
Not sure why you put this in. Hope the dismay has been replaced by something more pleasant.
OK!
Other than that, thanks for your thoughts. Off to listen to my 2 year old babbling on now, I've had some good practice here. Cheers!
However opposing the formation of a separate airline
most probably crewed by US pilots
is a rather mischievous way of going about such a defense
As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000 with overtime and allowances
No wonder they want to protect their Ts&Cs, but will these inflated salaries not result in the whole edifice tumbling down
By what tortuous path can BA pilots expect the great majority of far lower paid British pilots to support them?
Is it not bad enough that BALPA is, for all intense and purposes, a private British Airways Union cross funded by pilots and engineers from the rest of UK aviation
I well remember many years ago when, as a pilot in Britannia Airways, I was dismayed to discover that all 350 Britannia pilot's contribution to BALPA funds did not even meet BALPA's entertainment budget!
So come on BA pilots don't expect us to cry for you or be fooled about how losing this one will affect us all.
Other than that, thanks for your thoughts. Off to listen to my 2 year old babbling on now, I've had some good practice here. Cheers!
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LHR747
You are patently NOT what you claim to be. Nor do you have the first idea about this issue.
Since BA (the World's most profitable airline!) appears on target to make around £1billion in profit, it would appear your fears are unfounded!
If I were you, I would visit the balpa web site, which all REAL retired BA pilots have access to, and brush up on the facts, before you embarrass yourself any further!
Are you having any difficulty spending your £100, 000 a year pension?
I won't make that figure, because our T&Cs are constantly under attack. It's your generation that were privileged, not mine mate! Now act your age, not your shoe size!
You are patently NOT what you claim to be. Nor do you have the first idea about this issue.
As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000 with overtime and allowances. No wonder they want to protect their Ts&Cs, but will these inflated salaries not result in the whole edifice tumbling down?
If I were you, I would visit the balpa web site, which all REAL retired BA pilots have access to, and brush up on the facts, before you embarrass yourself any further!
Are you having any difficulty spending your £100, 000 a year pension?
I won't make that figure, because our T&Cs are constantly under attack. It's your generation that were privileged, not mine mate! Now act your age, not your shoe size!
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Hi
Straight off I'm not a Pilot but have worked in aviation for many years. I know from bitter experience that you will not convert anyone against your cause. I don't pretend to understand all the ins and outs. However, I do know that only those involved in a dispute can truly know what its about.
Anyway, the point of the post is to offer you support in the struggle ahead and assure you that not everyone thinks its wrong.....
Good Luck..
Straight off I'm not a Pilot but have worked in aviation for many years. I know from bitter experience that you will not convert anyone against your cause. I don't pretend to understand all the ins and outs. However, I do know that only those involved in a dispute can truly know what its about.
Anyway, the point of the post is to offer you support in the struggle ahead and assure you that not everyone thinks its wrong.....
Good Luck..
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LHR747, you are a breath of fresh air.
From where I stand (as I've tried to explain on pages 3/4 of this thread) these jobs can either improve the lot of the open pilot market (ie the likes of me, and yes I've already admitted to self-interest) or can go to a group who have plenty of privileges already (who are apparently only worried about eroded T&C's, not about self-interest) and are in danger of pricing themselves out of the market.
BALPA represents me, not just BA pilots, and my expensive sub is about to be spent on supporting an action that disadvantages me and thousands like me.
From where I stand (as I've tried to explain on pages 3/4 of this thread) these jobs can either improve the lot of the open pilot market (ie the likes of me, and yes I've already admitted to self-interest) or can go to a group who have plenty of privileges already (who are apparently only worried about eroded T&C's, not about self-interest) and are in danger of pricing themselves out of the market.
BALPA represents me, not just BA pilots, and my expensive sub is about to be spent on supporting an action that disadvantages me and thousands like me.
ManBlk,
Many posters have explained the reasons why this should be opposed. I fly for one of BAs major European competitors and I am very happy that Balpa are fighting BA on this. You are thinking too short term, yes you may get what you consider a good job, but in the long term it is the start of T&c reductions across the industry.
Many posters have explained the reasons why this should be opposed. I fly for one of BAs major European competitors and I am very happy that Balpa are fighting BA on this. You are thinking too short term, yes you may get what you consider a good job, but in the long term it is the start of T&c reductions across the industry.
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Oh dear MANBLK you have not listened nor understood some patient replies about the reasons this course of action is going ahead.
Also if your company had a dispute with your company council you would also get the support of BALPA so I don't understand why you are worried about BALPAs' money! It is there for exactly these reasons.
Also if your company had a dispute with your company council you would also get the support of BALPA so I don't understand why you are worried about BALPAs' money! It is there for exactly these reasons.
Controversial, moi?
As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000
It is like saying all solicitors are coining it in.
M.Mouse
20+ year longhaul captain and definitely not earning anywhere remotely near that figure although I did fly 900 hrs in the past 12 months.
Last edited by M.Mouse; 30th Jan 2008 at 23:00.
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Kabaka, if (hypothetically) my CC wanted to do something that potentially damaged the prospects of BA pilots, not one penny of BALPA support would be forthcoming.
As regards not understanding the situation, I don't believe that the BA CC have any intention of allowing any of these LHS jobs to go outside BA. That's the difference.
As regards not understanding the situation, I don't believe that the BA CC have any intention of allowing any of these LHS jobs to go outside BA. That's the difference.
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I have to say ( and i dont usually post) it is a bit discouraging although somewhat amusing to read some of these posts by non BA pilots. I have worked for 3 airlines and am now with the worlds favourite but have been a paid up member of BALPA since getting my licence. At no time was i under the impression that it was an exclusive club for BA pilots. The effectiveness of the union gains its strength from each individual airlines membership numbers as well as their resolve to stand together on important issues.
In the case in question - there is a clear and present threat to the terms and conditions we enjoy today. Why should we just shrug our shoulders and see that decline materialise? Should all so called 'overpaid' pilots reduce their terms and conditions to the lowest common denominator? Would all Thomas Cook, Easyjet, Thomson etc crews take a paycut to come into line with flybe or Eastern airways pay scales? (no offence meant to those two)if its good enough for them why not good enough for the rest of us? Of course that is not the case. There is a natural hierarchy of payscales within the airlines and that is just fact. Willie Walsh for example, I imagine - earns a good deal more than the chief exec of smaller airlines. I can only presume that those who state - they have no sympathy for us or the whole edifice will come tumbling down - are simply suffering from a bit of the green eyed monster.
I suggest they get their own house in order - boost BALPA membership within their own outfit and stand strong to improve their lot rather than hope everyone else falls down to their level. Either that or apply for BA!!!!
Feeling much better now!
In the case in question - there is a clear and present threat to the terms and conditions we enjoy today. Why should we just shrug our shoulders and see that decline materialise? Should all so called 'overpaid' pilots reduce their terms and conditions to the lowest common denominator? Would all Thomas Cook, Easyjet, Thomson etc crews take a paycut to come into line with flybe or Eastern airways pay scales? (no offence meant to those two)if its good enough for them why not good enough for the rest of us? Of course that is not the case. There is a natural hierarchy of payscales within the airlines and that is just fact. Willie Walsh for example, I imagine - earns a good deal more than the chief exec of smaller airlines. I can only presume that those who state - they have no sympathy for us or the whole edifice will come tumbling down - are simply suffering from a bit of the green eyed monster.
I suggest they get their own house in order - boost BALPA membership within their own outfit and stand strong to improve their lot rather than hope everyone else falls down to their level. Either that or apply for BA!!!!
Feeling much better now!
As regards not understanding the situation, I don't believe that the BA CC have any intention of allowing any of these LHS jobs to go outside BA.
To sum up the BACC welcomes the creation of Openskies as an opportunity to grow the BA brand, is not trying to keep the commands in-house and is trying to ensure that Openskies pilots have full and open access to mainline positions if they want them. British Airways management are denying Openskies pilots mainline opportunities and through the use of secondments will be restricting the command aspirations of any Openskies direct-entry first-officer. Does this help your understanding?