View Poll Results: Was the pilot of this display acting dangerously?
I AM a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,571
46.22%
I AM a professional pilot and I believe NO
360
10.59%
I AM NOT a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,024
30.13%
I Am NOT a professional pilot and I believe NO
311
9.15%
I have no opinion
133
3.91%
Voters: 3399. This poll is closed
Video footage of TAP A310 in extreme low flying turn at airshow
Join Date: Aug 2006
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"Simply put, the pilot is a prat. No question. Why you imbeciles who contribute to this madness continue to defend the imbecile who was trying to fly the aircraft is beyond me!"
Now there´s a class contribution...and they´ve erased a contribution from a portuguese ppruner? Was it half as abusive as the one above? I´d bet not... Oh well, what´s new?!...
Now there´s a class contribution...and they´ve erased a contribution from a portuguese ppruner? Was it half as abusive as the one above? I´d bet not... Oh well, what´s new?!...
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Quote:
The answer is YES, MrSoft. It is practice, skill and exact readout of height above terrain from the radio altimeter.
Are the altimeters in the wingtips? Your view is, that he could take an instrument reading, itself inaccurate but (following some further on-the-spot mental adjustments) potentially accurate, in real-time at 50ft in a 30deg bank? I am not having a go, I am genuinely interested whether pilots would think this sensible practice.
Is it me or does he start sinking again mid way through his turn?
What a great thread. There seem to be 3 opinions :
1. The manouevre was unsafe
2. Because he "knew what he was doing" this somehow makes it safe, go Portugal!
3. Bit naughty but, Attaboy!
2 & 3 refuse to engage with the arguments of 1, as far as I can see.
The answer is YES, MrSoft. It is practice, skill and exact readout of height above terrain from the radio altimeter.
Are the altimeters in the wingtips? Your view is, that he could take an instrument reading, itself inaccurate but (following some further on-the-spot mental adjustments) potentially accurate, in real-time at 50ft in a 30deg bank? I am not having a go, I am genuinely interested whether pilots would think this sensible practice.
Is it me or does he start sinking again mid way through his turn?
What a great thread. There seem to be 3 opinions :
1. The manouevre was unsafe
2. Because he "knew what he was doing" this somehow makes it safe, go Portugal!
3. Bit naughty but, Attaboy!
2 & 3 refuse to engage with the arguments of 1, as far as I can see.
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br.youtube.com/watch?v=z4KLXlE9ZU4
Hi Immelman, this one is for you.
ANd the following are for Hand Solo and his Brit friends...
br.youtube.com/watch?v=7IwplA7_4lU
br.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDDDKnNhuE
Relax and enjoy...
What do you say to these low level passes?
Check Six krueger...
Hi Immelman, this one is for you.
ANd the following are for Hand Solo and his Brit friends...
br.youtube.com/watch?v=7IwplA7_4lU
br.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDDDKnNhuE
Relax and enjoy...
What do you say to these low level passes?
Check Six krueger...
Join Date: Oct 2002
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146 "professional Pilots" are thinking according to the poll that this stunt was safe!!!
We are talking about wether a 30 bank turn in less than 100ft RA is safe or not.
To those who think it is safe, try it in your next Simride, maybe the instructor will like it aswell. I doubt that but have a try!!
Stupid Stunt and Shocking Poll result (I know a Poll on Pprune might not be very truth relating)
We are talking about wether a 30 bank turn in less than 100ft RA is safe or not.
To those who think it is safe, try it in your next Simride, maybe the instructor will like it aswell. I doubt that but have a try!!
Stupid Stunt and Shocking Poll result (I know a Poll on Pprune might not be very truth relating)
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Hello Krueger
Comparing a Spitfire Mk9 or a jet fighter with an A310 seems to have little intrinsic merit.
I can safely do things in my car that would be dangerous in a 38 tonne lorry.
Of course I am not commenting on the operation of the TAP A310, as I don't have the qualifications to do that, but I do have the qualifications to challenge an illogical comparison.
Comparing a Spitfire Mk9 or a jet fighter with an A310 seems to have little intrinsic merit.
I can safely do things in my car that would be dangerous in a 38 tonne lorry.
Of course I am not commenting on the operation of the TAP A310, as I don't have the qualifications to do that, but I do have the qualifications to challenge an illogical comparison.
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Krueger,
Amusing videos, but meaningless with respect to the question of this thread. You could probably successfully roll that Phantom at 50ft - does that mean it would be OK in an A310?
All the examples of low passes that you just posted would probably result in disciplinary action these days. Not really a good way to justify nearly putting an airliner wingtip into the ground.
Amusing videos, but meaningless with respect to the question of this thread. You could probably successfully roll that Phantom at 50ft - does that mean it would be OK in an A310?
All the examples of low passes that you just posted would probably result in disciplinary action these days. Not really a good way to justify nearly putting an airliner wingtip into the ground.
The Reverend
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MrSoft, he was in a level attitude before he commenced his left banking turn. His RA gave him his altitude above ground level, he knew his wing span and having practiced this manouver before, knew that he could safely execute the climbing turn without creating a disaster from the "near disaster" title of this thread.
Mach 3
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I wonder....
Of the contributors who voted this is unprofessional, how many think golf is an exciting game?
Of the contributors who voted this is not unprofessional, how many indulge the odd sky-dive or base-jump?
Different approaches to risk assessment....
I'm with Mark1234....I thought the exact same thing about The Red Bull Air Races and how they got that past the authorities.
Still, it was an acceptable risk from where I was sitting.
Of the contributors who voted this is unprofessional, how many think golf is an exciting game?
Of the contributors who voted this is not unprofessional, how many indulge the odd sky-dive or base-jump?
Different approaches to risk assessment....
I'm with Mark1234....I thought the exact same thing about The Red Bull Air Races and how they got that past the authorities.
Still, it was an acceptable risk from where I was sitting.
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It looks like the problem was a turn at a too low altitude. Others think the problem was flying over the crowd (which it didn't). And others complained about minimums (altitude) for airshows.
On the videos that I posted, I believe that some are in UK and are well below 100 ft. They show them flying over people and don't seem to be prepared at all (safe the spitfire).
So, it has nothing to do with being an A310. Although I agree with you that this maneuver done on a spitfire or an F-4 as nothing special about it.
For the ones that say that the maneuver is unimpressive, well, quite alot of posts for such anunimpressive maneuver.
Just one word for the moderator that banned a portuguese ppruner from the forum for improprer conduct. I would like to know if calling people idiots, stupid and so on is proper conduct. Well, not in my diccionary.
Check Six Krueger...
On the videos that I posted, I believe that some are in UK and are well below 100 ft. They show them flying over people and don't seem to be prepared at all (safe the spitfire).
So, it has nothing to do with being an A310. Although I agree with you that this maneuver done on a spitfire or an F-4 as nothing special about it.
For the ones that say that the maneuver is unimpressive, well, quite alot of posts for such anunimpressive maneuver.
Just one word for the moderator that banned a portuguese ppruner from the forum for improprer conduct. I would like to know if calling people idiots, stupid and so on is proper conduct. Well, not in my diccionary.
Check Six Krueger...
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photo from dv8
First class photo, but can we tell from a still photo whether it shows the aircraft at the very lowest point in the pass?
Perhaps it went lower still at some point.
Perhaps it went lower still at some point.
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Hi, KRUEGER,
I did enough low passes, wether in Goosebay or an a bombing range, or on a display!
You can not compare these low passes. I did more low passes on skip bombing in one mission than an averag Airline pilot go arounds in one year!!
And I am long enough into Airline business to say, I am not in training for those "combat events" anymore.
BTW, all flyby, displays I flew, there was always a determined minimum height for manouvering!
And if you are a safe pilot, means a good pilot, you STICK to regulations, especially on an airshow.
As we are not finding a consensus - still FOX 3
I did enough low passes, wether in Goosebay or an a bombing range, or on a display!
You can not compare these low passes. I did more low passes on skip bombing in one mission than an averag Airline pilot go arounds in one year!!
And I am long enough into Airline business to say, I am not in training for those "combat events" anymore.
BTW, all flyby, displays I flew, there was always a determined minimum height for manouvering!
And if you are a safe pilot, means a good pilot, you STICK to regulations, especially on an airshow.
As we are not finding a consensus - still FOX 3
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Go check the numerous vids of this on youtube and the photo above does not do "justice" to actually how close the wingtip was to the ground at a point just before the still was taken.
I wonder if the actual pilot seeing these videos thinks it was such a "well executed" move or thinks himself lucky.
I wonder if the actual pilot seeing these videos thinks it was such a "well executed" move or thinks himself lucky.
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Originally Posted by Cityliner
146 "professional Pilots" are thinking according to the poll that this stunt was safe!!!
Extrapolating to 2007, it could be said that roughly 30% might have military roots. The poll numbers of professional pilots only reflects a 25% share to those who thought this manuever was not unsafe. Could there be a correlation?
Civilian flight school graduates might not have a certain measure of "flight by feel" experience, as those with the "Right Stuff" likely do.
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Hi Immelman,
Are you saying that those f-4 low passes are within minimums?
I also did low passes, demos, etc.
I am also in the airline bizz now for too long to fly on an airshow. But I keep on saying that any maneuver within the envelope properly trained can be done safely whether it's an F-4 or a A310.
About the minimums in the UK for airshows, are they in force on the Red Bull Air Race? Or, as they say, Money talks, Bulls#$ht walks...
Finally, Immelman, we agree in disagreeing. Happy Landings.
And I stick to my guns track, kill...
krueger
Are you saying that those f-4 low passes are within minimums?
I also did low passes, demos, etc.
I am also in the airline bizz now for too long to fly on an airshow. But I keep on saying that any maneuver within the envelope properly trained can be done safely whether it's an F-4 or a A310.
About the minimums in the UK for airshows, are they in force on the Red Bull Air Race? Or, as they say, Money talks, Bulls#$ht walks...
Finally, Immelman, we agree in disagreeing. Happy Landings.
And I stick to my guns track, kill...
krueger
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Found a very good video on airshows and the the reaction of the spectators - it's in Polish, but I hope you enjoy it 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCH6n-OGSJA
My point is that the public is generally watching you one eye only, concentrated on eating a hot dog and drinking their beer (especially if you're not an F-16). Had those guys flown 50' higher, the public would have been equally excited... So why risk your life for that?
Cheers!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCH6n-OGSJA
My point is that the public is generally watching you one eye only, concentrated on eating a hot dog and drinking their beer (especially if you're not an F-16). Had those guys flown 50' higher, the public would have been equally excited... So why risk your life for that?
Cheers!
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Krueger - what do I say to those videos? Well the Spitfire was very impressive! The Tornadoes I'm rather more dubious about as the only indication that they are RAF comes from the titles, added by somebody who can't spell course. There are no idents on the aircraft and nobody in the video is speaking English. Sounds more like German to me, and the Luftwaffe do operate a lot of Tornadoes.
All that is beside the point though as neither of those videos are airshows. The Tornado one looks like a few mil boys doing a beat up of the airfield, there are no crowds of public spectators and I doubt they went to the authorities to get approval for that flypast. The Spitfire would have had approval to do it legitimately, and having flown with someone who is frequently involved in this kind of historical flying for TV they have had to have gone to the UK authorities with full details of the procedure and had it specifically approved. Again, it was a private flypast, not a public airshow. Would they have been permitted to perform the same manouvre in an airliner in front of thousands of spectators? Not a chance.
The Red Bull air race didn't slip through the net either, especially as this years one was in the heart of Londons Docklands, under the approach path to London City airport, beneath the approach path for LHR and watched by 50,000 people. I was there, the aircraft were never on a trajectory that would have taken them into the crowd and despite what you like to imply there is a world of difference between flying an Extra 300 and an Airbus 300. The Extra can safely execute a 20ft banking flypast with margins for error. The Airbus can't, and will make a much bigger hole when it goes wrong.
All that is beside the point though as neither of those videos are airshows. The Tornado one looks like a few mil boys doing a beat up of the airfield, there are no crowds of public spectators and I doubt they went to the authorities to get approval for that flypast. The Spitfire would have had approval to do it legitimately, and having flown with someone who is frequently involved in this kind of historical flying for TV they have had to have gone to the UK authorities with full details of the procedure and had it specifically approved. Again, it was a private flypast, not a public airshow. Would they have been permitted to perform the same manouvre in an airliner in front of thousands of spectators? Not a chance.
The Red Bull air race didn't slip through the net either, especially as this years one was in the heart of Londons Docklands, under the approach path to London City airport, beneath the approach path for LHR and watched by 50,000 people. I was there, the aircraft were never on a trajectory that would have taken them into the crowd and despite what you like to imply there is a world of difference between flying an Extra 300 and an Airbus 300. The Extra can safely execute a 20ft banking flypast with margins for error. The Airbus can't, and will make a much bigger hole when it goes wrong.