View Poll Results: Was the pilot of this display acting dangerously?
I AM a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,571
46.22%
I AM a professional pilot and I believe NO
360
10.59%
I AM NOT a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,024
30.13%
I Am NOT a professional pilot and I believe NO
311
9.15%
I have no opinion
133
3.91%
Voters: 3399. This poll is closed
Video footage of TAP A310 in extreme low flying turn at airshow
I've been following this thread with great interest. Not because I'm hanging on to every word uttered by the "Trained Aviation Professionals" (TAPs) around here as it pertains to the excecution of the TAP A310 at the airshow, (I happened to think it was great, but what do I know) but because the way some of you judge us SLF.
Bad PR for TAP, umm....no. Most of us are able to differ between an exhibition flight at an air show and being transported from A to B against a paid up ticket. As a matter of fact, how much airing has this event had outside aviation circles? You know, in the media most non-aviators get our news from. Not much and by now I guess mostly forgotten. Keep on slagging your fellow aviator in public, I'm sure he don't mind. In my old profession it would have been considered very bad form.
Per
Bad PR for TAP, umm....no. Most of us are able to differ between an exhibition flight at an air show and being transported from A to B against a paid up ticket. As a matter of fact, how much airing has this event had outside aviation circles? You know, in the media most non-aviators get our news from. Not much and by now I guess mostly forgotten. Keep on slagging your fellow aviator in public, I'm sure he don't mind. In my old profession it would have been considered very bad form.
Per
Mess Your Passage
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You bunch of shandies......
have you listened to the crowd here....????
it was high energy and over the crowd and all was good....
sing this chaps praises or all just accept flying is now by buttons
lotsaluv
xxxxxx
f
have you listened to the crowd here....????
it was high energy and over the crowd and all was good....
sing this chaps praises or all just accept flying is now by buttons
lotsaluv
xxxxxx
f
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Now I'm no longer concerned with the TAP pilots actions. I'm concerned with the attitude off some professional pilots in this thread.
When a pilot writes such words, I guess he's:
1. Asking for the head of a fellow pilot, for some inexplicable reason, that goes against the rising culture in aviation, wich is called "just culture" (you can read Aero Safety World, July 07 for more info). This means that pilots are held responsible for their actions, but will be treated fairly, and will be punished if premeditated. Nobody in this forum is in condition of assessing wether the discussed actions were premeditated. Air safety issues investigation is a serious and very important activity, and is usualy conducted in a way very different from this blood thirsty attitude. Probably, these guys have been smacked a bit, either in the sim, in the cockpit, or in life, and are looking for a bit of revenge. OR;
2. These guys realy believe in those ideas, and thats worse, because nobody thinks of himself as a Premeditated Negligent, Dangerous or Irresponsible, and this means that they must realy believe that those things can't possibly happen to them. OR;
3. They are realy good, and if that's the case, from now on I'll try to be like them. But remember that a KLM's chief pilot took off without clearence at Los Rodeos, and unfortunately didn't have the chance to get the sack. He also wasn't good enough. I'm not making excuses for the TAP guy, I think I made my position very clear that I didn't like what I saw. I'm just wondering why the hell such unrelyable pilots have been appointed for those jobs, when one can easilly find a fair number or genial pilots in this forum.
This topic is making me sick, so long!
This Pilot’s actions were:
1-Premeditated negligence
2-Dangerous
3-Irresponsible
1-Premeditated negligence
2-Dangerous
3-Irresponsible
1. Asking for the head of a fellow pilot, for some inexplicable reason, that goes against the rising culture in aviation, wich is called "just culture" (you can read Aero Safety World, July 07 for more info). This means that pilots are held responsible for their actions, but will be treated fairly, and will be punished if premeditated. Nobody in this forum is in condition of assessing wether the discussed actions were premeditated. Air safety issues investigation is a serious and very important activity, and is usualy conducted in a way very different from this blood thirsty attitude. Probably, these guys have been smacked a bit, either in the sim, in the cockpit, or in life, and are looking for a bit of revenge. OR;
2. These guys realy believe in those ideas, and thats worse, because nobody thinks of himself as a Premeditated Negligent, Dangerous or Irresponsible, and this means that they must realy believe that those things can't possibly happen to them. OR;
3. They are realy good, and if that's the case, from now on I'll try to be like them. But remember that a KLM's chief pilot took off without clearence at Los Rodeos, and unfortunately didn't have the chance to get the sack. He also wasn't good enough. I'm not making excuses for the TAP guy, I think I made my position very clear that I didn't like what I saw. I'm just wondering why the hell such unrelyable pilots have been appointed for those jobs, when one can easilly find a fair number or genial pilots in this forum.
This topic is making me sick, so long!
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Regardless of who it was the airplane banked before starting to pitch up very close to the ground....far to close to the ground to begin to bank before starting to pull up......in my humble opinion.
Agree with you Chuck!
Even though I was never a display pilot, if showing off the jet when departing from somewhere, my rule of thumb was never to have more bank than pitch below 500 ft aal on take-off - and make everything smooth. The aircraft looked much more graceful in a 15 deg climb with 15 deg AoB in any case..... Gently pitch and roll to 15/15, then roll gently out on departure heading and keep climbing. Didn't break any rules or hazard anyone.
Racking into a low level turn before climbing away, as seen in the A310 video, is highly dangerous. Period.
Even though I was never a display pilot, if showing off the jet when departing from somewhere, my rule of thumb was never to have more bank than pitch below 500 ft aal on take-off - and make everything smooth. The aircraft looked much more graceful in a 15 deg climb with 15 deg AoB in any case..... Gently pitch and roll to 15/15, then roll gently out on departure heading and keep climbing. Didn't break any rules or hazard anyone.
Racking into a low level turn before climbing away, as seen in the A310 video, is highly dangerous. Period.
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We all make mistakes.........Anyone who says he doesn't make mistakes is a liar. You make them, learn from them and move on.
By the sounds of it this TAP Chief pilot was chosen to do the 'airshow' because he was very good. Then comes display day ..........oops ! He makes a mistake.
Unfortunately there is a difference between the KLM incident and this incident. The simple difference is the KLM Chief pilot did not practise in the sim how close he could leave it before applying full power and just clearing the other 747 on the runway !!
When most of us make mistakes we have a safety net underneath us, sometimes on very rare occasions that net doesn't catch us
but what we don't do is considerably reduce the size of the net.
Perhaps next time he should use one of those Portuguese fishing nets.
By the sounds of it this TAP Chief pilot was chosen to do the 'airshow' because he was very good. Then comes display day ..........oops ! He makes a mistake.
Unfortunately there is a difference between the KLM incident and this incident. The simple difference is the KLM Chief pilot did not practise in the sim how close he could leave it before applying full power and just clearing the other 747 on the runway !!
When most of us make mistakes we have a safety net underneath us, sometimes on very rare occasions that net doesn't catch us
but what we don't do is considerably reduce the size of the net.Perhaps next time he should use one of those Portuguese fishing nets.
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Well one could say if his wing hit the ground when making a turn at such a low altitude, then yess... he was too low.
The question should be... did the pilot exercise proper judgement in such close proximity to the public???? the answer is no.
The question should be... did the pilot exercise proper judgement in such close proximity to the public???? the answer is no.
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Look at the clouds - there is a potential for down-draughts here. I got caught in one in a 737 - totally unexpected! This is the kind of person Tony Kern writes about in "A Darker Shade of Blue" - a rogue pilot. This has to be the one of the stupidest acts I have seen in over 40 years of flying.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0 I have seen two professional pilots die at airshows one a military flyer at the time of his death, the other a former red arrow and at the time he died a 737 pilot, I have no doubt that both these men were excellent airmen but nevertheless made mistakes that ended in disaster, nobody should take the slightest risk just for the entertainment of others, I go to a lot of airshows and would rather see a less spectacular flying display knowing that it increases the safety margin for the pilots than ever witnesses anyone else lose their life.
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I think the majority of us enjoy the arial ballet display of aircraft dancing in sky. However there are those twisted individuals who pitch up hoping to capture a disaster on their camcorder.
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Well, having seen both the turn and the even lower straight pass, I'm just glad I was not in the Crowd or the owner of one of those planes along the flightline!
The aircraft could have easily been 50 feet higher to create sufficient impact with those watching.
This was clearly a D A N G E R O U S.. D I S P L A Y... and no one will convince me otherwise.
The aircraft could have easily been 50 feet higher to create sufficient impact with those watching.
This was clearly a D A N G E R O U S.. D I S P L A Y... and no one will convince me otherwise.
ok I'll tone it down a little for those of faint hearts
The man is a DOPE.
He is supposed to be the best TAP have got, he rehearses it in the sim multiple times and then.....................STUFFS UP.
That is one lucky SOB.
The man is a DOPE.
He is supposed to be the best TAP have got, he rehearses it in the sim multiple times and then.....................STUFFS UP.
That is one lucky SOB.
Grandpa Aerotart
He didn't make 'one mistake'...that would be the case if he 'ooopsed' the turn and then called off the rest of the display while the nerves stopped jangling...but he went on to complete a low level turn right around the field and then at least a couple of less than well considered low passes...one with lots of wing waggling that turned into a dutch roll demo and one that was WAY to Low and WAY too close to everyone/everything.
He was demonstrating himself...not the aeroplane...and from what I saw on that tape his raw flying skills are not up to much...or are his defenders suggesting the dutch rolling and slipping low turn were deliberate?
I think there is plenty of evidence over the decades that the very LAST pilot that should be picked by an airline for a display is the Fleet CP. The main reason why they shouldn't be picked is because, unlike a line pilot, they tend to feel a little invulnerable...who will dress down the boss if he pushes it a bit?
I would be willing to bet there is not a line pilot on the planet who thinks they would get away with that display and keep their job.
He was demonstrating himself...not the aeroplane...and from what I saw on that tape his raw flying skills are not up to much...or are his defenders suggesting the dutch rolling and slipping low turn were deliberate?
I think there is plenty of evidence over the decades that the very LAST pilot that should be picked by an airline for a display is the Fleet CP. The main reason why they shouldn't be picked is because, unlike a line pilot, they tend to feel a little invulnerable...who will dress down the boss if he pushes it a bit?
I would be willing to bet there is not a line pilot on the planet who thinks they would get away with that display and keep their job.
>I think there is plenty of evidence over the decades that the very LAST pilot that >should be picked by an airline for a display is the Fleet CP. The main reason why >hey shouldn't be picked is because, unlike a line pilot, they tend to feel a little >invulnerable...who will dress down the boss if he pushes it a bit?
As we saw in 1977... classic case, and often to be repeated (although not with such disastrous results thankfully)
>I would be willing to bet there is not a line pilot on the planet who thinks they >would get away with that display and keep their job.
I think a lot of us would assume we wouldn't have got away with it.... it was after all a non-existent margin.
As we saw in 1977... classic case, and often to be repeated (although not with such disastrous results thankfully)
>I would be willing to bet there is not a line pilot on the planet who thinks they >would get away with that display and keep their job.
I think a lot of us would assume we wouldn't have got away with it.... it was after all a non-existent margin.
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He didn't make 'one mistake'...that would be the case if he 'ooopsed' the turn and then called off the rest of the display while the nerves stopped jangling...but he went on to complete a low level turn right around the field and then at least a couple of less than well considered low passes...one with lots of wing waggling that turned into a dutch roll demo and one that was WAY to Low and WAY too close to everyone/everything.
He was demonstrating himself...not the aeroplane...and from what I saw on that tape his raw flying skills are not up to much...or are his defenders suggesting the dutch rolling and slipping low turn were deliberate?
I think there is plenty of evidence over the decades that the very LAST pilot that should be picked by an airline for a display is the Fleet CP. The main reason why they shouldn't be picked is because, unlike a line pilot, they tend to feel a little invulnerable...who will dress down the boss if he pushes it a bit?
I would be willing to bet there is not a line pilot on the planet who thinks they would get away with that display and keep their job.
He was demonstrating himself...not the aeroplane...and from what I saw on that tape his raw flying skills are not up to much...or are his defenders suggesting the dutch rolling and slipping low turn were deliberate?
I think there is plenty of evidence over the decades that the very LAST pilot that should be picked by an airline for a display is the Fleet CP. The main reason why they shouldn't be picked is because, unlike a line pilot, they tend to feel a little invulnerable...who will dress down the boss if he pushes it a bit?
I would be willing to bet there is not a line pilot on the planet who thinks they would get away with that display and keep their job.
That's a fair comment, there are others alike here. This shows knowledge of how things work in aviation.
I don't think there will be anything much interesting on this subject till we get to know the consequences of this event.
For those of you who think that it is allright to fly dangerously low at airshows, go and read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Holland
It's about colonel Bud Holland, USAF. He was the best B52 pilot they had, and flew at all airshows. Until......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Holland
It's about colonel Bud Holland, USAF. He was the best B52 pilot they had, and flew at all airshows. Until......
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The point was made some time ago! What's with this constant repetition?
At some point the fascination with kicking a man when he is down must surely subside?
At some point the fascination with kicking a man when he is down must surely subside?