View Poll Results: Was the pilot of this display acting dangerously?
I AM a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,571
46.22%
I AM a professional pilot and I believe NO
360
10.59%
I AM NOT a professional pilot and I believe YES
1,024
30.13%
I Am NOT a professional pilot and I believe NO
311
9.15%
I have no opinion
133
3.91%
Voters: 3399. This poll is closed
Video footage of TAP A310 in extreme low flying turn at airshow
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Just because you have an opinion, it does not mean that you are right. This is the bottom line in this thread.
Too many people, who don't know that much about flying, but are enthusiastic about their own opinions, actually believe that this is a
disaster situation. Factually, this is not the case.
The person who started this thread, with this particular title, is defined by being: a complete ignorant in aviation, someone looking for easy fame between his enthusiast peers.
Aviation is about aircraft and flying, not about pictures, videos and opinions about disasters and accidents. People are getting used to peeking into this world, read a few forums, start making opinions and statements without even realizing the enormities they are doing.
You just got to know what you are talking about before speaking about subjects you know nothing more than what you think you see.
People who insult the crew and, in particular, the pilot flying, are just rude and have no education whatsoever. They are those pathetic little people who stand behind a computer writing their frustrations off, without even giving a chance to good judgment. Maybe they are not the blame, upbringing is at a low these days.
I would like to see their act, facing those people that they so emphatically accuse like they know better. I can almost envision them swinging their tails at them, respectfully silent.
Obviously, making the same maneuver at 10000 feet would not seem so close to the ground, but that does not make it any less safe or under control. The A310, under such a light load, is a very agile flying machine, and has a complete different handling experience from the day-to-day operations.
People who are implying the plane carried passengers are ridiculous.
By the way, the quality of the videos seems to be on the low side, but then i am not an expert, i guess people did their best.
Too many people, who don't know that much about flying, but are enthusiastic about their own opinions, actually believe that this is a
disaster situation. Factually, this is not the case.
The person who started this thread, with this particular title, is defined by being: a complete ignorant in aviation, someone looking for easy fame between his enthusiast peers.
Aviation is about aircraft and flying, not about pictures, videos and opinions about disasters and accidents. People are getting used to peeking into this world, read a few forums, start making opinions and statements without even realizing the enormities they are doing.
You just got to know what you are talking about before speaking about subjects you know nothing more than what you think you see.
People who insult the crew and, in particular, the pilot flying, are just rude and have no education whatsoever. They are those pathetic little people who stand behind a computer writing their frustrations off, without even giving a chance to good judgment. Maybe they are not the blame, upbringing is at a low these days.
I would like to see their act, facing those people that they so emphatically accuse like they know better. I can almost envision them swinging their tails at them, respectfully silent.
Obviously, making the same maneuver at 10000 feet would not seem so close to the ground, but that does not make it any less safe or under control. The A310, under such a light load, is a very agile flying machine, and has a complete different handling experience from the day-to-day operations.
People who are implying the plane carried passengers are ridiculous.
By the way, the quality of the videos seems to be on the low side, but then i am not an expert, i guess people did their best.
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3Ten
Thanks for that balanced analysis. Having watched the respective videos a few times I would agree with your sentiments. Mistakes were made and hopefully lessons learned. Enough said!
Thanks for that balanced analysis. Having watched the respective videos a few times I would agree with your sentiments. Mistakes were made and hopefully lessons learned. Enough said!
I'm a bit puzzled by JFAs remarks.
As a mere cherokee driver I do not think the manoevers I have seen on the video were safe and appropriate at that altitude.
I know the A310 is an agile aeroplane and fondly remember Gordon Corps at Farnborough with the testbed for the A320 software "throwing" it round the sky. But that was a man who was absolutely a master of his aeroplane and what it could and should do - safely.
(I think Bill Loverseed was at the same Farnborough but that is another story)
To say that the manoever would be no more safe at 10,000 ft is stoopid. I would happily stall my aeroplane at 10,000 but no way would I want to be anywhere near a stall, dragging the aeroplane round on engine power at less than 200 feet.
"Low and Slow .. Lookout below."
As a mere cherokee driver I do not think the manoevers I have seen on the video were safe and appropriate at that altitude.
I know the A310 is an agile aeroplane and fondly remember Gordon Corps at Farnborough with the testbed for the A320 software "throwing" it round the sky. But that was a man who was absolutely a master of his aeroplane and what it could and should do - safely.
(I think Bill Loverseed was at the same Farnborough but that is another story)
To say that the manoever would be no more safe at 10,000 ft is stoopid. I would happily stall my aeroplane at 10,000 but no way would I want to be anywhere near a stall, dragging the aeroplane round on engine power at less than 200 feet.
"Low and Slow .. Lookout below."
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For the few who are offended by the title of this thread (particularly JFA), I tried to retitle it immediately in response to Foxile's post as I agree that "disaster" is too sensational. I am unable to change the thread title but would appreciate it if the mods will. (now changed to extreme low flying turn - thanks mods)
I found the article of interest and felt that others in the profession would too, whether they think it's a near disaster or a great display.
As for being "a complete ignorant in aviation, someone looking for easy fame between his enthusiast peers.", well thank you JFA ... I guess that goes for Flight International as well who ran the original story.
I found the article of interest and felt that others in the profession would too, whether they think it's a near disaster or a great display.
As for being "a complete ignorant in aviation, someone looking for easy fame between his enthusiast peers.", well thank you JFA ... I guess that goes for Flight International as well who ran the original story.
Last edited by Beavis and Butthead; 20th Sep 2007 at 14:25.
Yes, very well said 3Ten.
I would say he is on the floor now and has been kicked hard enough and for long enough on this thread (although I am equally sure there will be plenty more wanting to put their boot in).
Despite all those sticking up for him here, I am willing to bet that nobody in TAP is walking up to him and saying "Well done!"
Sure, a lot of his friends and countrymen will try and defend him in public regardless of what they might think privately - is that not normal behaviour, up to a point?
HE MESSED UP! That is a fact.
Despite all those sticking up for him here, I am willing to bet that nobody in TAP is walking up to him and saying "Well done!"
Sure, a lot of his friends and countrymen will try and defend him in public regardless of what they might think privately - is that not normal behaviour, up to a point?
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No one seems to have mentioned the rain down-bursts coming out of the dark cumulus (possibly CB??) in the background during the display.
Frankly, I think it was a case of nearly being ' when good times go bad' .
Frankly, I think it was a case of nearly being ' when good times go bad' .
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Despite all those sticking up for him here, I am willing to bet that nobody in TAP is walking up to him and saying "Well done!"
Sure, a lot of his friends and countrymen will try and defend him in public regardless of what they might think privately - is that not normal behaviour, up to a point?
Sure, a lot of his friends and countrymen will try and defend him in public regardless of what they might think privately - is that not normal behaviour, up to a point?
I´m sure he's having his bad time. My simpathy goes to the pilot who's had a bad day, unless I know him and reckon he's an asshole. There aren't many like that. This guy is a perfectly normal guy who unfortunately had a bad day. One day it might be me. There are many good pilots who paid with their lives in days like this, and many others who got away.
TAP is an high standard airline, like many in the world, and I'm sure this issue will be addressed in the proper manner.
So back a few posts there were those that told us:
-- "it was rehearsed in the sim, he is highly experienced and was well trained for it"
Now they tell us :-- "he had a bad day, rolled before he pulled".....
make up your minds, if he was rehearsed and trained in these airshow maneuvers he wouldn't have made those dangerous mistakes.
mmm
bad day my ass...........he's an idiot.
-- "it was rehearsed in the sim, he is highly experienced and was well trained for it"
Now they tell us :-- "he had a bad day, rolled before he pulled".....
make up your minds, if he was rehearsed and trained in these airshow maneuvers he wouldn't have made those dangerous mistakes.
mmm
bad day my ass...........he's an idiot.
"THEY" haven't said anything different.
One of their fellow countrymen did, that's all. And I just happen to agree with him. He messed up big time (that low level bank - bloody hell!) and I doubt very much that he will be flying any more displays in the near future - just an educated guess.
Now is that OK with you ACMS?
One of their fellow countrymen did, that's all. And I just happen to agree with him. He messed up big time (that low level bank - bloody hell!) and I doubt very much that he will be flying any more displays in the near future - just an educated guess.
Now is that OK with you ACMS?
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Ok, I'll bite.
Well, I have made a commitment to this forum moderator not to break the rules of engagement so I won't use the personal attack approach when replying, but ACMS you're asking for it aren't you?
If anybody from the audience is in any way remotely connected to being an aviation professional, never mind an experienced ATP plane driver, they will make their own minds given the very few facts available, and are fully entitled to express it here in a professional way bearing in mind that it could have happened to them in a similar occasion. Any one who thinks that he's God's gift to professional aviation and he'll never ever make a mistake or a made a bad call (that turns into a close call) without lessons learned then he doesn't belong inside a cockpit, not even in the jump seat.
You ACMS (and the likes) are calling this pilot an idiot. So that should make you what... superior beings?! Oh yeah, sure, I forgot... all pilots are second to God when they handle their stick and rudder. You're probably thinking that your watch is bigger than this unfortunate fellow just because no one would ever thought of calling you to fly at an air show. Now that is a very dangerous way of thinking. I've seen it in several threads here at R&N, and I believe something is missing in the way pilots are trained these days, starting with basic upbringing slash education. That's why CRM had to be invented to deal with these awkward people I guess.
As 3ten have said on a previous post, everybody knows everybody in the business here at Portugal and this is not a simple figure of speech: it's a known fact for a long time for the locals. You can't have a better way of a self-controlled self-regulated "society" than this; a guy is talked about for any given reason and everyone knows instantly who are we talking about; If he's a pr1ck well ...what can I say... he'd better start looking for a job in central Africa or the middle east real quick. Not much of a choice innit.
So don't jump on the guns so fast. Read and learn. Express your educated guess in proper fashion so that we all can learn with the mistakes of others, big or small. You'll never know when your own name appears printed on some sensationalist thread title here at Pprune.
GD&L
Well, I have made a commitment to this forum moderator not to break the rules of engagement so I won't use the personal attack approach when replying, but ACMS you're asking for it aren't you?
If anybody from the audience is in any way remotely connected to being an aviation professional, never mind an experienced ATP plane driver, they will make their own minds given the very few facts available, and are fully entitled to express it here in a professional way bearing in mind that it could have happened to them in a similar occasion. Any one who thinks that he's God's gift to professional aviation and he'll never ever make a mistake or a made a bad call (that turns into a close call) without lessons learned then he doesn't belong inside a cockpit, not even in the jump seat.
You ACMS (and the likes) are calling this pilot an idiot. So that should make you what... superior beings?! Oh yeah, sure, I forgot... all pilots are second to God when they handle their stick and rudder. You're probably thinking that your watch is bigger than this unfortunate fellow just because no one would ever thought of calling you to fly at an air show. Now that is a very dangerous way of thinking. I've seen it in several threads here at R&N, and I believe something is missing in the way pilots are trained these days, starting with basic upbringing slash education. That's why CRM had to be invented to deal with these awkward people I guess.
As 3ten have said on a previous post, everybody knows everybody in the business here at Portugal and this is not a simple figure of speech: it's a known fact for a long time for the locals. You can't have a better way of a self-controlled self-regulated "society" than this; a guy is talked about for any given reason and everyone knows instantly who are we talking about; If he's a pr1ck well ...what can I say... he'd better start looking for a job in central Africa or the middle east real quick. Not much of a choice innit.
So don't jump on the guns so fast. Read and learn. Express your educated guess in proper fashion so that we all can learn with the mistakes of others, big or small. You'll never know when your own name appears printed on some sensationalist thread title here at Pprune.
GD&L
PIC was the fleet chief by the way.
Why?
Simple.
1. He loses credibility amongst the people he is supposed to oversee.
2. Bad publicity
3. Unnecessary
4. last but not least: Dangerous
I am sure the management of TAP is having a great laugh right now, with this video in the public domain.
........So actually I am waiting for this guy to get sacked. And this thread will continue to get smeared out until this is the case.
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Sure F9 ... a guy with an impeccable record makes one single mistake and should be crucified on the spot. I would accept that if you would quit voluntarily your flying job the next time you say to yourself "ooops!" while flying. Solomon's law is rather appealing.
GD&L
GD&L
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F9'er,
your post is appalling to say the least.
Maybe in "your airline" you have a blame and shame culture, but in Modern airlines with a GOOD safety culture, this incident will be thoroughly debriefed, lessons learned and flying resumed.
your post is appalling to say the least.
Maybe in "your airline" you have a blame and shame culture, but in Modern airlines with a GOOD safety culture, this incident will be thoroughly debriefed, lessons learned and flying resumed.
Well GD&L, there is a difference in making a mistake (which everyone does on a daily basis) and flying at an airshow like that.
If someone becomes a chief pilot at an airline, you have to realise a few very important things. Of course you need good flying skills, and I am sure that this guy can fly an airplane very well.
But there are also other factors. You become an role model for the rest of the flying corps. You set an example. If you do something very stupid, then you lose your credibility, and your authority as well. And you are from that moment on, unable to do your job. I have seen it happen in my company.
Secondly, I have not seen a link on the TAP internet site to this youtube movie, so I assume they are not too happy with all this publicity. Why? Because it BAD publicity. It looks like those TAP guys are a bunch of cowboys!
Now they are not, they are absolute professionals, but this is what bad publicity is all about. Wrong perceptions. And who is to blame for all this BAD publicity? Yep. Mr. chief pilot at the controls.
Thirdly, as a chief pilot you are expected to go the extra mile for the company. You are more professional than the professionals that you oversee. And that is why a chief pilot can not make grave, grave mistakes without losing his position as a chief pilot.
If someone becomes a chief pilot at an airline, you have to realise a few very important things. Of course you need good flying skills, and I am sure that this guy can fly an airplane very well.
But there are also other factors. You become an role model for the rest of the flying corps. You set an example. If you do something very stupid, then you lose your credibility, and your authority as well. And you are from that moment on, unable to do your job. I have seen it happen in my company.
Secondly, I have not seen a link on the TAP internet site to this youtube movie, so I assume they are not too happy with all this publicity. Why? Because it BAD publicity. It looks like those TAP guys are a bunch of cowboys!
Now they are not, they are absolute professionals, but this is what bad publicity is all about. Wrong perceptions. And who is to blame for all this BAD publicity? Yep. Mr. chief pilot at the controls.
Thirdly, as a chief pilot you are expected to go the extra mile for the company. You are more professional than the professionals that you oversee. And that is why a chief pilot can not make grave, grave mistakes without losing his position as a chief pilot.
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You know, all this talk of "xx hours" in the sim just makes the "incident" all the more damning, now it's gone from "the guy made a single misjudgement, the only one in his career" to the public perception of "Hey TAP planned it that way all along!!".......not good.
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This Pilot’s actions were:
1-Premeditated negligence
2-Dangerous
3-Irresponsible
I am sure that when this pilot saw the videos he had shivers down his spine and will have nightmares in the future just imagining what could of happened . He is a LUCKY to be ALIVE .
But, as it was mentioned before, I hope that lessons are learned from this episode.
Safe Landings
1-Premeditated negligence
2-Dangerous
3-Irresponsible
I am sure that when this pilot saw the videos he had shivers down his spine and will have nightmares in the future just imagining what could of happened . He is a LUCKY to be ALIVE .
But, as it was mentioned before, I hope that lessons are learned from this episode.
Safe Landings
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An interesting readig is one about a 340 from Iberia hitting the ground with the wing in LESA a few years ago during a test flight and diverting to LEMD causing a rain of metalic pieces meanwhile.
I agree with you, I need margins.
I agree with you, I need margins.