Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?

[Bograt]

Seniority not invented by the military

Try reading Ernest K Gahn's "Fate Is The Hunter" regarding the very early, pioneering, years of airline operations across the USA, how the seniority list idea evolved and what he thought of it.

He thought it was a good thing...

Personally, I don't, and I'm ex military. I regularly moved squadrons and went back to the right hand seat of a new type until I'd gained the requisite experience. The additional stripes only ensured a greater load of the administrative burden on the ground.

[Basil]

Oh please have my command, Sir.

At 37, I am unlikely to find myself in the LHS of any major airline this side of 50

Well, I am not trying to be rude when I say it's no good hanging on in the mob and then bleating about it.
As I've just said, that is how things work in our industry.
'Hachet Harry'? so do you think you should be permitted to march into the big boys of civil aviation and hatchet your way to the LHS?
I've flown with FOs from Harriers, Reds etc; relaxed and competent people of the highest aviation calibre; and I never heard one of them complain about the system. I am sure they would have been welcome to remain in the military but chose to leave.
There are companies, such as Cathay/Cathay Cargo, which offer accelerated promotion but, if you wish to join a Western seniority based major, that's the deal. Don't forget that many companies are now increasing their normal retirement age to 60 and, now that the Yanks and Frogs have got their act together, you can fly in command to 65.
When we had a bunch of ex mil guys join some years ago we were a little concerned that they would have difficulty losing the attitude to work which, whilst absolutely correct in the military, makes one a soft touch for the beancounters. We need not have concerned ourselves; they learnt fast that civil life is a marketplace - we work, they pay us and a seniority system offers some protection.

[Hachet Harry]

Well, I am not trying to be rude when I say it's no good hanging on in the mob and then bleating about it.

Sorry Basil, I didn't realise I was bleating about it, I thought that I was joining the debate and offering an opinion that differed from Bob's.

'Hachet Harry'? so do you think you should be permitted to march into the big boys of civil aviation and hatchet your way to the LHS?

No, of course not. I am very aware that the Industry employs such a system and by joining it, by definition, I would be accepting it. My point is that it is an antiquated system that does not reward hard work in the same way that most other industries do.

whilst absolutely correct in the military, makes one a soft touch for the bean counters.

Whilst I also don't want to appear rude, it sounds as if maintaining the status quo is ideal for you. If being willing to work hard and wanting to succeed at my chosen occupation makes me a soft touch to the bean counters, so be it. You on the other hand want to get paid top notch and receive cushy benefits for doing as little as humanely possible. Good luck to you. One day though, you might be made to realise that the world doesn't owe you a living.

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by Hachet Harry

At 37, I am unlikely to find myself in the LHS of any major airline this side of 50; no matter how hard I work, how good a pilot I am or how flexible I remain.

I'd say Ryanair and Easyjet are major airlines and you could have a command in those well before you are 50, especially as you are willing to work. Flexibility would certainly be an asset as a willingness to accept any base can accellerate that command. There's always Emirates, Etihad, Qatar Airways and the like too. Or do you just want a command in a big British scheduled airline?

[Hachet Harry]

Hand Solo,

Fair point! I suppose I was referring to the likes of BA and Virgin as examples of the seniority system at it's most significant. I would certainly be interested in working for some of the Middle Eastern companies you mentioned.

[Santas Little Helper]

lets face it whatever seniority system is used, someone is going to feel disadvantaged.
What surprises me though, is there is no legislation to force employers to pay the pension contributions into a national airline pension fund. Perhaps then pilots (and others) would then be able to build up seniority with a decent pension regardless of whether they changed companies during their careers.

[jafar]

Food for thought

Sorry to join so late, just got back from leave;
Let us take a major European airline with a very strong union culture, and a very strict seniority list. That airline goes bust. (that is unfortunate but happened a few years ago). Guess what....all the guys move for jobs everywhere in the world...but nobody talks about seniority anymore...but mention "experience" and all the ex captains try to join as Direct Entry Captain etc...

Is this wrong? When a guy enters the survival mode, should he care about a "seniority list" at a potential employer?

I guess the bottom line is that seniority was a good system or at least the best one, but is now a thing of the past. Emirates, Etihad, Singapore to name a few have recruited DEC's for a long time.

Let us face it, seniority is dead at least as far as promotion is concerned. Perhaps we should focus on a LIFO method (Last IN first OUT) of protection when the **** hits the fan.

Food for thought

[Basil]

Last IN first OUT

That's seniority in action.
No objection to anyone trying to get the best possible deal for themselves so the seniority system is the way FOs in an established airline protect their go at a command course.

[Ladusvala]

Hatchet Harry,
Stupid question perhaps but I ask myself how I can work harder?
Every pilot in my airline gets his roster and works accordingly, ther´s no way of affecting the amount of duty. The only way I see is by working on your days off.
If you work hard by selling your days off, your reward will be money and that´s it. I don´t think it should qualify for earlier promotion. Everyone gets his shot at it when it´s his time.
(I´m absolutely sure you don´t mean working harder by taking less fuel, accepting aircraft of questionable servicability, going below minima etc, though the bean counters and managers at some airlines would certainly love that.)

[llondel]

When the chips are down, we all look after no.1 because ultimately no employer is going to do so if cutting costs or going bust. Anyone who's had an involuntary decruitment experience will be looking for what's best for themselves, at which point the seniority system is a problem. Conversely, those that have built up the time and are still incumbent want to keep the system because ultimately it protects them from the competition. You'll never solve the problem because a system that benefits everyone doesn't exist, all you achieve by changing the system is vary who's in the pool of winners and who's in with the losers.

[Hachet Harry]

Stupid question perhaps but I ask myself how I can work harder?

I suppose I meant a general state of mind and attitude towards the job. Preparing yourself fully for your next sim check perhaps, making yourself available on your days off; not always, but sometimes. Being flexible with holiday; not always, but sometimes. Willing to drive to the other airport; not always but.........................

I appreciate that the above examples are not necessarily accurate, but I'm sure you get my drift. It's very easy to tell the people who have a positive attitude toward their job from those that are there for an easy ride. Not that there is anything wrong with that, after all most of us work to live not vice versa. But maybe there should be some reward for those that are willing to go that extra yard.

(I´m absolutely sure you don´t mean working harder by taking less fuel, accepting aircraft of questionable servicability, going below minima etc

I'm absolutley sure that that doesn't require an answer.

[Dan Winterland]

Seniority is great if you have it, and if you do - you tend to be in favour of it. But the truth is, it reduces our terms and conditions. The management like it because it ties us to the job and they don't have to offer use more money to keep us there.

Can you imagine a barrister having to start again as an articles clerk because he changes chambers, or a Senior Consultant becoming a Junior Houseman because he changes hospitals?

[7Q Off]

I read to many guys wanting to be hired by British Airways, Virgin, lufthansa as Direct Entry Captains for 747 400 with the max pay with CPL and 200 hs. If you want to fly for a major with a big UNION you will have seniority and you will have to wait your turn to upgrade. Lots of more senior and equal qualified guys before you. Period. Nothing will change that.
Big boys play with big boys rules.

[BelArgUSA]

Why I hated strict "seniority system"

Gentlemen (and Ladies) -
xxx
When I got hired by PanAm 1968, it was clear to me that there was a strict seniority system in force, as per our ALPA contract. Was fine for me, no objection. Then, of course, I was 25 of age, did not know much, and we were told that we would be captains some 5 years "later", as PanAm was to take delivery of 25 B-747s, and 12 B-2707 SSTs, and was even considering to take options on Concordes...
xxx
I was not happy with seniority because of base... I lived in Los Angeles, where I could not be based, because my seniority. All the senior pilots from New York, Chicago and Boston did bid San Francisco and Los Angeles to make a little extra money on longer Pacific flights... So, where was I based...? MIA with the 727... and JFK with the 707...
xxx
All went fine, quickly went from F/E 727 to 707, then F/O 727 to 707 in a matter of 3 years, with P1 type rating on both types... Big smile... Then the October War hit in 1973 (can't these idiots ever stop fighting and mess-up our airline pilot careers...?) -
xxx
Layoff... by chance, I got jobs overseas... Then, recall in 1979... Retraining... then National Airlines got absorbed by PanAm (to gain USA domestic routes) since PanAm was only an international airline with NO domestic USA routes... After a brief 3 months recall, layoff again... because our union decided that the merge of seniority lists was "2 PanAmigos" for "1 Maytag (NAL)"... There were pilots from National (who had been hired by National in 1971 or 1972) junior to me who became senior to me on the PanAm pilot list.
xxx
In 1987, PanAm sold their Pacific division (and many airplanes) to United... Many pilots left, to join United (with their full seniority - date of hire)... I could have elected to go to United, but my heart was with PanAm (good guys wear white hats). Then all went to hell, PanAm bankruptcy in DEC 1991, with Delta taking most of our routes to Europe... but not the pilots...
xxx
Of course, Delta was "nice enough" to give me an interview... I was captain and pilot instructor... and offered me to be 727 F/E with... new hire wages, and probably to teach Delta pilots how to speak ICAOese on the radio outside of the USA, on the routes they "stole" from the PanAmigos...
xxx
I rest my case.
God bless Argentina which gave me direct entry 747 captain.
xxx

Happy contrails

[parabellum]

"Can you imagine a barrister having to start again as an articles clerk because he changes chambers, or a Senior Consultant becoming a Junior Houseman because he changes hospitals? "

Well, let's see.

Barrister changes chambers, only if he gets a better offer because he is good, or sacked,** if the latter he won't have too much choice about his position, (as a barrister), in his next firm will he? He will be a junior barrister within his new firm and not a partner one would think, until he has proven himself and overcome the reason for his sacking, unless, of course, he gets sacked by a big firm and then joins a small firm, hardly a 'step across' or 'up' is it?
** Major personal confrontations between senior barristers/partners of proven qualities excepted.

Senior Consultant becoming a junior houseman because he changes hospitals. Senior Consultants usually have their own rooms and only do what they want to do at hospitals. Hospitals are not famous for going bust either, always more than enough customers, so not a reasonable comparison is it? Compare it to there always being a need for DEC.

Sorry Dan, you haven't made a point. (Well, that is my 2cents, anyway,).

[Bad Robot]

I thought seniority was great, until 9/11.
Then it became a nitemare for me also. 10 years in my last airline, the last 5 wasted, with not a lot around for a few years after 9/11. The clock was ticking away and not getting any younger! Thousands of Jet hours under my belt and not even getting interviews during all the recent recruitment but all the younger guys getting in and away to escape to pastures that are greener. I had to finance a Bus rating myself to make myself employable again. Thankfully the gamble paid off but to the bottom of another seniority list I go. At least I'm happier now and the FTL's are actually used as a guide and not a target any more.

BR.

[900]

Seniority

Parabellum,
You should be aware that barristers are most typically (other than the few corporate counsel) self-employed and pay rent for their chambers. They can't be sacked, but solicitors can refuse to engage them!
Incidentally, barristers are (were when I was studying that milarky) immune in UK law from law suits for negligence / incompetence. Now that is something the pilots' unions should aspire to!!
Doctors have highly regulated processes and procedures to adhere to (like pilots) with worrying disciplinary consequences for mistakes (like pilots) but with sometimes publically accessible hearings (unlike pilots) - still a better comparison than lawyers to your trade.
Anyway, for what it's worth - seniority is indefensible in law and sooner or later will be successfully challenged. As will the arcane medical practices.

[Mat Tongkang]

At every college and varsity reunion I get laughed at when my former mates get to know about the archaic pilot seniority system. The other professionals in airline companies know this very well and plot their ways on dealing with the " not so smart" bunch of fly boys. Yes, imagine a barrister becoming an articled clerk or a CPA becoming an audit clerk or senior consultant specialist having to be an intern

[Hand Solo]

Thats weird because my college and varsity mates rather like the idea of a guaranteed year on year pay rise and the prospect of a reasonably well defined promotion path that doesn't require brown-nosing or working such excessive hours that you make yourself ill. The other professionals in airline companies can plot all they like but in my firm the pilots are earning more than 95% of them.

[Re-Heat]

Yes, but do you tell them that you typically go back to the bottom once you change outfits?


Edited to add: where it certainly addresses the point of "people getting their turn", it fails entirely to address the problem of very, very strong potential commanders failing to get their turn until far later than in other locations.

As always, much endorsed by the union typically benefits only insiders...but that is the point of a union!