Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?
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Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?
Does seniority belong to a thing of the past in modern aviation? Should pilots be promoted depending on how good their flying skills are and their ability to manage other crew members? If you have the skills and experience should you be considered for a command position above a F/O who has worked for an airline for 10 years and can’t fly for nuts? Why do you have to start at the bottom again if you want to work for another airline?
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Seniority should not be scrapped as far as promotion is concerned, subject to proficiency, but it sickens me that senior pilots should have more privileges than others, e.g. bid-lines.
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If seniority didn't exist, they'd be a lot more movement between airlines. There'd no longer be a disincentive to move. Accordingly wages would be higher, for two reasons: (a) airlines would be offering higher packages to attract the right people; and (b) airlines would be offering higher packages to retain people.
Kinda like the rest of the world, actually....
Airline management secretly LOVE seniority, but they cleverly let us think that WE love it and never want to give it up!
Kinda like the rest of the world, actually....
Airline management secretly LOVE seniority, but they cleverly let us think that WE love it and never want to give it up!
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Por favor, Dan Buster...
xxx
If you ask passengers (the ones who are scared) and ask "is that pilot ok...?"
What do you think they would prefer as captain, the best stick and brains, or the most senior...?
xxx
Sorry, in my long career, I have seen many idiots upgraded by seniority...
A very poor yardstick...
With TWA, in example, if you failed a first captain upgrade, you were given a second chance, not less than 12 months later. If you failed a second time, sim check or line training, you were relegated to PFO (Professional F/O) for the rest of your days, until retirement...
xxx
If a seniority system is maintained such as airlines in USA generally go by, I would recommend an ALPA and APA national seniority system... so if your airline goes bankrupt, a national sport with US air carriers, at least you are given a chance to continue your career...
xxx
I lost my job in DEC 1991 with PanAm, as 747 captain...
When Delta interviewed me a few month later, they offered me to be a new hire F/E on 727... and told me I could become a F/O rather soon... F/O...? Or was it to give some "oceanic procedures instruction" for free to a captain with 20 years Delta seniority... who spoke Hillbilly on HF with Shanwick...?
Shall I also mention what was the first year 727 F/E pay with Delta...?
You could not even "commute" on jump seats...
xxx
Dont ask why I moved to Argentina, they gave me the red carpet treatment.
They gave me direct entry 747 captain, then soon later check pilot... and gave me my self-respect again.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
If you ask passengers (the ones who are scared) and ask "is that pilot ok...?"
What do you think they would prefer as captain, the best stick and brains, or the most senior...?
xxx
Sorry, in my long career, I have seen many idiots upgraded by seniority...
A very poor yardstick...
With TWA, in example, if you failed a first captain upgrade, you were given a second chance, not less than 12 months later. If you failed a second time, sim check or line training, you were relegated to PFO (Professional F/O) for the rest of your days, until retirement...
xxx
If a seniority system is maintained such as airlines in USA generally go by, I would recommend an ALPA and APA national seniority system... so if your airline goes bankrupt, a national sport with US air carriers, at least you are given a chance to continue your career...
xxx
I lost my job in DEC 1991 with PanAm, as 747 captain...
When Delta interviewed me a few month later, they offered me to be a new hire F/E on 727... and told me I could become a F/O rather soon... F/O...? Or was it to give some "oceanic procedures instruction" for free to a captain with 20 years Delta seniority... who spoke Hillbilly on HF with Shanwick...?
Shall I also mention what was the first year 727 F/E pay with Delta...?
You could not even "commute" on jump seats...
xxx
Dont ask why I moved to Argentina, they gave me the red carpet treatment.
They gave me direct entry 747 captain, then soon later check pilot... and gave me my self-respect again.
xxx
Happy contrails
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The point that people such as BelArgUSA and others always fail to address is HOW do you go about identifying the "best stick and brains" in order to promote them?
The amount of @rse!ickin and cronyism that goes on in those airlines that use "merit" promotions has to be seen to be believed.
Who do you think an average airline manager is going to promote, given the chance? The F/O who once refused a flight on fatigue grounds or who carried extra fuel into LHR (as advised by the UK CAA) or the guy who never refused to do anything asked of him, no matter what the professional implications?
BelArgUSA says his new airline gave him his "self respect" back (bit worrying that he seems to define himself by the number of stripes on his sleeve!) by making him a direct entry captain, but I bet it didn't do much for the self respect or morale of the F/Os at that airline, and I bet he wouldn't have gone along with that idea during his time in Pan Am!
If you REALLY want to see some poor pilots promoted, then just go down the management selection route!
To paraphrase, seniority is the worst system for promoting F/Os .............................. apart from all the others!
The amount of @rse!ickin and cronyism that goes on in those airlines that use "merit" promotions has to be seen to be believed.
Who do you think an average airline manager is going to promote, given the chance? The F/O who once refused a flight on fatigue grounds or who carried extra fuel into LHR (as advised by the UK CAA) or the guy who never refused to do anything asked of him, no matter what the professional implications?
BelArgUSA says his new airline gave him his "self respect" back (bit worrying that he seems to define himself by the number of stripes on his sleeve!) by making him a direct entry captain, but I bet it didn't do much for the self respect or morale of the F/Os at that airline, and I bet he wouldn't have gone along with that idea during his time in Pan Am!
If you REALLY want to see some poor pilots promoted, then just go down the management selection route!
To paraphrase, seniority is the worst system for promoting F/Os .............................. apart from all the others!
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Couldn't we have a system of "flying hours seniority"? The airline would still have a way to decide who's going on the next command course (amongst the ones who have passed a command assessment, of course). And it would allow people to move around between airlines - which would benefit us all in terms of pay and conditions. The current system of threatening to strike, or striking, to get pay rises is very inefficient. Why can't we be like any other business out there and vote with our feet if we don't like the way our employers treat us? Like Ron & Edna Johns said: management LOVE seniority. Nice golden prison they keep you in.
Seniority emerged in the times where people like my father worked for one employer all their life (he's not a pilot, it was true for most jobs). Businesses have involved, for better of for worse, into a very fluid global employment market, why should we be so different? BelgArgUSA's story is the perfect illustration of what's so wrong with this system" LHS 747 to F/E on 727??? It's madness.
P
Seniority emerged in the times where people like my father worked for one employer all their life (he's not a pilot, it was true for most jobs). Businesses have involved, for better of for worse, into a very fluid global employment market, why should we be so different? BelgArgUSA's story is the perfect illustration of what's so wrong with this system" LHS 747 to F/E on 727??? It's madness.
P
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Err, shouldn't this thread be moved to terms and endearment? Now that I am finally gaining seniority - no! That said if I moved to a new airline - yes! Depends on my seniority at the time as to whether I would wish to see it scrapped. Have a robust command scheme and there is no reason why idiots shopuld be upgraded.
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It aint perfect by a long shot but we need it for this reason : it stops your employer playing you off against each other to drive your salary and conditions down. Say a promotion comes up at your company and you didnt have a list to abide by. they would then give that position to the the lowest bidder, ie some newby who would do your job for next to nothing. think about it.
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Isn't the seniority list a hangover from the days when the airlines paid for training/type ratings etc, thus discouraging us to leave once the "bonded time" expired?....After all, who is going to quit when 4 years up the list and "so close" to getting a command.
How about promotion and employment based on the system the rest of the corporate world uses - test results, experience, and references.
Nothing like a quick ride in the sim with an engine failure out of Saltzburg on a crappy day to sort out the men from the boys ...figuratively speaking of course!
How about promotion and employment based on the system the rest of the corporate world uses - test results, experience, and references.
Nothing like a quick ride in the sim with an engine failure out of Saltzburg on a crappy day to sort out the men from the boys ...figuratively speaking of course!
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Seniority should not be scrapped as far as promotion is concerned, subject to proficiency, but it sickens me that senior pilots should have more privileges than others, e.g. bid-lines.
Perfect reply, nailed it! I would say you've ended the debate.
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To answer specifically to Dick Deadeye objections...
xxx
There are means of identifying those pilots who perform best as F/O and are potentially upgradable to captain sooner than others... This selection is derived from captain's reports, performance in simulator recurrent training, and in line operations. You see, our F/Os are, when performing above average, given a captain type rating, and thereby, are given the opportunity to occupy the LHS, and practice their future upgrade to full captain status.
xxx
As to the effect on the morale of F/Os, bypassed by direct entry captains, I hardly believe that it ever was the case when I got hired, alongside others. My airline had at times been forced to hire direct entry, not having a number of candidates who were upgradable. These F/Os did maintain their overall seniority. Here in Argentina, pay is a function of seniority from date of hire, and of course, position, not by size or weight of aircraft. I have merely 13 years seniority. I know some F/O, even on the 737, with 25+ years with this company, having a salary nearly equal to mine...
xxx
My colleagues and crews (F/Os included) considered me well enough to recommend me to a promotion to check captain, and further, to manager of flight training, as I have been instructor for many years in airline service (with PanAm). I might be just a plain average pilot, but my reputation as instructor is second to none...
xxx
When the A-340 arrived to this airline, they hired 18 direct entry captains due to the fact that these Airbus were an entirely different breed of technology... and I did not see any discontempt among our crews...
xxx
Shall I also mention, that many major world carriers, such as ANA, JAL, SIA, KAL, MAS, Asiana, Cathay, Emirates, all rely on a large proportion of direct entry captains. No need to mention that these are all succesful airlines, and not only because of geography.
xxx
As to why I did not join i.e. ANA or JAL in Japan, as many PanAmigos did, despite much higher salaries, is because I did not want to suffer 9 months of re-education (and brainwashing) to the Japanese culture and style of training, in a minuscule hotel room in Tokyo. Buenos Aires was always my favorite layover, of all the many places I did fly to... When I arrived here, I received, for free, 6 weeks of intensive Spanish language tutoring, and felt absolutely welcome by everyone, from airline management, down to the people in my street.
xxx
And I prefer Argentina beef dinners with pasta and wine, to sushi with sake...
No mad cows here, they do not need psychiatric treatment...
Happy contrails
xxx
There are means of identifying those pilots who perform best as F/O and are potentially upgradable to captain sooner than others... This selection is derived from captain's reports, performance in simulator recurrent training, and in line operations. You see, our F/Os are, when performing above average, given a captain type rating, and thereby, are given the opportunity to occupy the LHS, and practice their future upgrade to full captain status.
xxx
As to the effect on the morale of F/Os, bypassed by direct entry captains, I hardly believe that it ever was the case when I got hired, alongside others. My airline had at times been forced to hire direct entry, not having a number of candidates who were upgradable. These F/Os did maintain their overall seniority. Here in Argentina, pay is a function of seniority from date of hire, and of course, position, not by size or weight of aircraft. I have merely 13 years seniority. I know some F/O, even on the 737, with 25+ years with this company, having a salary nearly equal to mine...
xxx
My colleagues and crews (F/Os included) considered me well enough to recommend me to a promotion to check captain, and further, to manager of flight training, as I have been instructor for many years in airline service (with PanAm). I might be just a plain average pilot, but my reputation as instructor is second to none...
xxx
When the A-340 arrived to this airline, they hired 18 direct entry captains due to the fact that these Airbus were an entirely different breed of technology... and I did not see any discontempt among our crews...
xxx
Shall I also mention, that many major world carriers, such as ANA, JAL, SIA, KAL, MAS, Asiana, Cathay, Emirates, all rely on a large proportion of direct entry captains. No need to mention that these are all succesful airlines, and not only because of geography.
xxx
As to why I did not join i.e. ANA or JAL in Japan, as many PanAmigos did, despite much higher salaries, is because I did not want to suffer 9 months of re-education (and brainwashing) to the Japanese culture and style of training, in a minuscule hotel room in Tokyo. Buenos Aires was always my favorite layover, of all the many places I did fly to... When I arrived here, I received, for free, 6 weeks of intensive Spanish language tutoring, and felt absolutely welcome by everyone, from airline management, down to the people in my street.
xxx
And I prefer Argentina beef dinners with pasta and wine, to sushi with sake...
No mad cows here, they do not need psychiatric treatment...
Happy contrails
I think we are confusing two seperate issues here. Seniority as it applies to bidline etc etc and who gets upgraded for command. In BA upgrades come in seniority order but you still have to pass the course. If you knew how many failures there were each year you would be reassured that the system was not just churning out new Captains sausage machine style. We even have the equivalent of an earlier posters "PFO's" those who have had at least 3 goes and still failed. If you are changing fleets to get a left seat and don't pass then you end up back on your original type/seat - something that I seen happen this year to colleagues.
In terms of all the other issues surrounding seniority - how would you organise an airline with 3200 pilots and not become corrupt?
In terms of all the other issues surrounding seniority - how would you organise an airline with 3200 pilots and not become corrupt?
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It depends on the airline and its culture. Having been in a legacy carrier and marched up the list to my command which I enjoyed until its ridiculously young retirement age forced me to leave, I am now at a LoCo as a DE TC where promotion is done on experience and ability alone. The selection for command is thorough and uncontaminated by any form of favouritism. There is no such thing as a long-serving co-pilot at my current company (apart from those who fail) because many leave to join legacy carriers or to go to the sand-pit. Nearly all the others enter the command selection process as soon as they have the hours and they gain a command in short order. Mind you, it helps that the company is expanding at 15% per year! It has yet to hit a serious brick wall.
Horses for courses.
Horses for courses.
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Seniority is an outmoded practise. It is hard to see what could replace it successfully, but there are other options.
Virtually everyother industry promotes mainly on merit (and on "who" you know, but that's a different argument!), how can they do it and not the airline world?
The management structure in flying is quite complex. As an FO, your day to day manager is the Captain you are flying with. In a big company, this could be a different person every day of the week.
How can you be meaningfully assessed on a continual basis in this way? You can't really, but how many of us hve had one to one meetings and discussed issues that affect us with pilot managers? Very few I would venture.
One of the problems, is that pilot managers may be senior flight crew with years of experience in the cockpit, but most have little knowledge of how to manage a department. When people say "Human Resources" in flying circles, it is usually followed up by a sneer or sarky comment, but that is really due to not understanding what HR is really all about. (BTW, I'm not in HR)
How many senior pilot managers have had any training in management? Very few. (Ex-airforce are more likely to have had some training, but it is unlikely it has been recent enough or deep enough to cope with a huge modern department and all the asociated issues.)
Personally I think a meritocracy is by far the best way of promoting people and it is pure laziness in a companies HR dept. and self interest amongst more "senior" pilots (who will usually have more horsepower behind them) which has stopped a good solution being found.
As has already mentioned. Seniority lists is more likely to hold down salaries than increase them, because it removes the desire for people to change company for fear of losing this all encompassing thing called "seniority."
It is a managements dream to have something like this. A device to prevent pilots moving jobs without having to pay them more. Great!
If you look at other fields, at the start of your career, you increase your salary fastest by moving jobs. It isn't unusual in some fields for people to have moved 6 or 7 times in the first 10 years of their employment life. The days of companies disliking lots of moves on CV's when there is a clear upward path shown is gone. It is an accepted fact. That doesn't mean it's popular though.
Bonding has always been used to try and stop the free movement of pilots between companies, seniority lists are just another mechanism of control over the pilot workforce. It works for many, but it is a bit outmoded today. A very hard thing to find a good workable replacement system though.
Virtually everyother industry promotes mainly on merit (and on "who" you know, but that's a different argument!), how can they do it and not the airline world?
The management structure in flying is quite complex. As an FO, your day to day manager is the Captain you are flying with. In a big company, this could be a different person every day of the week.
How can you be meaningfully assessed on a continual basis in this way? You can't really, but how many of us hve had one to one meetings and discussed issues that affect us with pilot managers? Very few I would venture.
One of the problems, is that pilot managers may be senior flight crew with years of experience in the cockpit, but most have little knowledge of how to manage a department. When people say "Human Resources" in flying circles, it is usually followed up by a sneer or sarky comment, but that is really due to not understanding what HR is really all about. (BTW, I'm not in HR)
How many senior pilot managers have had any training in management? Very few. (Ex-airforce are more likely to have had some training, but it is unlikely it has been recent enough or deep enough to cope with a huge modern department and all the asociated issues.)
Personally I think a meritocracy is by far the best way of promoting people and it is pure laziness in a companies HR dept. and self interest amongst more "senior" pilots (who will usually have more horsepower behind them) which has stopped a good solution being found.
As has already mentioned. Seniority lists is more likely to hold down salaries than increase them, because it removes the desire for people to change company for fear of losing this all encompassing thing called "seniority."
It is a managements dream to have something like this. A device to prevent pilots moving jobs without having to pay them more. Great!
If you look at other fields, at the start of your career, you increase your salary fastest by moving jobs. It isn't unusual in some fields for people to have moved 6 or 7 times in the first 10 years of their employment life. The days of companies disliking lots of moves on CV's when there is a clear upward path shown is gone. It is an accepted fact. That doesn't mean it's popular though.
Bonding has always been used to try and stop the free movement of pilots between companies, seniority lists are just another mechanism of control over the pilot workforce. It works for many, but it is a bit outmoded today. A very hard thing to find a good workable replacement system though.
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The danger is that if commands were allocated at the management's discretion then it would be the brown nose brigade who would get rewarded for their efforts.
The ones who always take minimum fuel irrespective of the weather on the day. Those who volunteer to work on days off for the money, even though they are breaking agreements by doing so, those who we used to call the Martini pilots who would go anywhere, anytime, anyplace.
In short you could write off any hope of a home or social life because you would have to scramble up the same slippery pole. The advantage of the present system is that pilots still have to pass the standards laid down by training departments, rather than the managements favourites getting the job.
The ones who always take minimum fuel irrespective of the weather on the day. Those who volunteer to work on days off for the money, even though they are breaking agreements by doing so, those who we used to call the Martini pilots who would go anywhere, anytime, anyplace.
In short you could write off any hope of a home or social life because you would have to scramble up the same slippery pole. The advantage of the present system is that pilots still have to pass the standards laid down by training departments, rather than the managements favourites getting the job.