Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Thanks 900, I had a vision of junior barristers working for senior barristers who were the partners and bosses in a law firm, hadn't realised that they were mainly all self employed.
You say: "seniority is indefensible in law and sooner or later will be successfully challenged".
How would you go about proving your point? Take a typical airline situation, say three vacancies for captains and ten equally qualified and experienced first officers awaiting promotion? By equally qualified and experienced I mean holding the company's requirement for promotion to captain, such as licence and experience, not the oldest, the one with most hours, the one who has been a captain before, elsewhere etc. etc. all of which can be very subjective. Surely date of joining can be the only fair and non discriminatory form of selection for command training?
You say: "seniority is indefensible in law and sooner or later will be successfully challenged".
How would you go about proving your point? Take a typical airline situation, say three vacancies for captains and ten equally qualified and experienced first officers awaiting promotion? By equally qualified and experienced I mean holding the company's requirement for promotion to captain, such as licence and experience, not the oldest, the one with most hours, the one who has been a captain before, elsewhere etc. etc. all of which can be very subjective. Surely date of joining can be the only fair and non discriminatory form of selection for command training?
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I think the only seniority people are talking about is being unable to retain your current rank when moving jobs, I think everyone would agree that any in house promotion should (but it's not a perfect world) be done on DOJ (seniority) and suitability i.e. have the minimum qualifications. Also 7Q off, direct entry Command positions still require minimum qualifications (often greater than in house requirements), A/C type experience so on and so forth, so don't expect to walk into a 747 Command with a Major carrier with $$$.
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Originally Posted by Re-Heat
Yes, but do you tell them that you typically go back to the bottom once you change outfits?
Edited to add: where it certainly addresses the point of "people getting their turn", it fails entirely to address the problem of very, very strong potential commanders failing to get their turn until far later than in other locations.
Edited to add: where it certainly addresses the point of "people getting their turn", it fails entirely to address the problem of very, very strong potential commanders failing to get their turn until far later than in other locations.
How do you define a "very, very strong potential commander", and indeed why do you think they are more entitled to a command than just a quite good potential commander? A lesson frequently taught in engineering is not to over-specify things as it leads to higher costs and complexity for little gain. Given that all commanders must work to a very high level of competency in any decent airline why is there any case for "very, very strong potential commanders" to jump the queue when they will bring little extra to the operation but cause a large amount of discord?
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As I believe solely in mertitocracies, and have no faith whatsoever in systems designed to benefit those who have been there the longest.
But it is an opinion of course, to which we are all entitled.
But it is an opinion of course, to which we are all entitled.
Hands up anyone who's seen a true meritocracy in action in the real world.
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Seniority is the best system (so far) that protect you from nepotism, brown nosers, and from a constantly downgrading of your T&Cs. When somebody says that this system forces oneself to get stuck to a company , the same applies to the management, so they can't bully you around. So I don't really follow the logic when they say that this system pushes down our T&Cs.
From what I read, the only ones who are against this are the ones who were unfortuned in their careers (airline going bust, etc). The other ones are happy with it.
I am an ex-mil guy. I had my fun flying real Jets! Did my war time and now it's time to take it easy.
I flew with captains younger than me and less experienced and that didn't bothered me at all. To be a good professional you should be as good in the RHS as in the LHS.
I had the chance to go directly to the airlines , like some friends of mine did, but if I could go back I would do just the same although by now I would already in Long Haul.
There's plenty of airlines that accept DECs so why all this bitching around. Leave the regulars as they are because we're happy with it.
Check Six Krueger...
From what I read, the only ones who are against this are the ones who were unfortuned in their careers (airline going bust, etc). The other ones are happy with it.
I am an ex-mil guy. I had my fun flying real Jets! Did my war time and now it's time to take it easy.
I flew with captains younger than me and less experienced and that didn't bothered me at all. To be a good professional you should be as good in the RHS as in the LHS.
I had the chance to go directly to the airlines , like some friends of mine did, but if I could go back I would do just the same although by now I would already in Long Haul.
There's plenty of airlines that accept DECs so why all this bitching around. Leave the regulars as they are because we're happy with it.
Check Six Krueger...
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Krueger essentially summed it up.
Getting rid of the seniority system would be foolish for a lot of reasons.
First and foremost it would be a detriment to safety. Airline captains today ( at least in the U.S.) can make decisions in regards to fuel, diverts, fatigue, emergency's, calling in sick, refusing trips, kicking off pax etc etc.. with out fear of repercussions with regards to promotions, pay or job loss. This is a gigantic benefit.
I have been with a large U.S legacy carrier for 15 years. I probably won't make captain for another 5 at my base. But based on my seniority I know I will one day, if I can pass upgrade training and if the airline is still around. It doesn't require that I have a perfect attendance record or that I play golf with the boss or kiss every captains ass that I fly with. I don't know the name of my chief pilot and I don't care to know. As far as I know he doesn't know mine which is fine with me. All this promotes a sense of security that would be absent with a non seniority based system. Does it mean that it's a perfect system? obviously not but it is by far and away better than the alternative.
I think if we could go back in time ALPA probably should have gone with a master seniority list when things got started in the 20's and 30's but it's too late for that now. Overall it is a good system and I think it would be absolutely moronic to change it.
Getting rid of the seniority system would be foolish for a lot of reasons.
First and foremost it would be a detriment to safety. Airline captains today ( at least in the U.S.) can make decisions in regards to fuel, diverts, fatigue, emergency's, calling in sick, refusing trips, kicking off pax etc etc.. with out fear of repercussions with regards to promotions, pay or job loss. This is a gigantic benefit.
I have been with a large U.S legacy carrier for 15 years. I probably won't make captain for another 5 at my base. But based on my seniority I know I will one day, if I can pass upgrade training and if the airline is still around. It doesn't require that I have a perfect attendance record or that I play golf with the boss or kiss every captains ass that I fly with. I don't know the name of my chief pilot and I don't care to know. As far as I know he doesn't know mine which is fine with me. All this promotes a sense of security that would be absent with a non seniority based system. Does it mean that it's a perfect system? obviously not but it is by far and away better than the alternative.
I think if we could go back in time ALPA probably should have gone with a master seniority list when things got started in the 20's and 30's but it's too late for that now. Overall it is a good system and I think it would be absolutely moronic to change it.
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I believe seniority is a good thing, and I am sure that many training Captains would be a little upset that some people think that when you name comes to the top of the waiting list you get a command. In the companies I have worked for, one with a seniority list there were some F/Os who were bypassed as not suitable or did assessments and failed. The standards for Command were no lower than any other airline and you only got a command if you were up for it. What it meant was that the company didn't employ DEC when Senior F/Os were capable of passing the course.
My current company doesn't have a seniority list and I find that new F/Os joining from other airlines with more "Factored Hours" AFTER me will get their chance sooner than I do. Does this mean they are more suitable for Command, possibly, but that in itself doesn't mean I am not good enough. With waiting lists for some bases very long this doesn't seem to me to be a way of creating what the company call a "Career Airline".
My current company doesn't have a seniority list and I find that new F/Os joining from other airlines with more "Factored Hours" AFTER me will get their chance sooner than I do. Does this mean they are more suitable for Command, possibly, but that in itself doesn't mean I am not good enough. With waiting lists for some bases very long this doesn't seem to me to be a way of creating what the company call a "Career Airline".
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Imagine a company with 3200 baristers or 2779 junior accountants. How would the promotions go then? Can you imagine a "barister check day" every six months with a medical thrown in.
Lets see, what would I do to advance my position? I know i'm not as good as Nigel there, but if I, well, get out my knee pads, yea, thats the ticket! maybe kiss a little arse, yea, i like the idea!
No one is perfect no matter how much you think you are. We all have good and bad days. some sim sessions will be good, some not so good. You may be an excellent pilot but have a short temper. You may get along with everyone, have excellent CRM skills, but be an average pilot.
Seniority is what we have because we have a lot of folks doing the same job, many hired on the same day. We need a system, and this works. Training and sim checks is our way of weeding out the chafe. Are we going to have a "fly off" in the case of a tie in our training scores?
OK, time to get the day started!
Lets see, what would I do to advance my position? I know i'm not as good as Nigel there, but if I, well, get out my knee pads, yea, thats the ticket! maybe kiss a little arse, yea, i like the idea!
No one is perfect no matter how much you think you are. We all have good and bad days. some sim sessions will be good, some not so good. You may be an excellent pilot but have a short temper. You may get along with everyone, have excellent CRM skills, but be an average pilot.
Seniority is what we have because we have a lot of folks doing the same job, many hired on the same day. We need a system, and this works. Training and sim checks is our way of weeding out the chafe. Are we going to have a "fly off" in the case of a tie in our training scores?
OK, time to get the day started!
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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I am an ex-mil guy. I had my fun flying real Jets! Did my war time and now it's time to take it easy.
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That's a good example of seniority funcioning. The Bug Smasher above would have excluded me from being a captain because in his expertise I am not ripe for it.
Thank God for that...
Check Six Krueger
Thank God for that...
Check Six Krueger
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Stupid question perhaps but I ask myself how I can work harder?
Every pilot in my airline gets his roster and works accordingly, therīs no way of affecting the amount of duty. The only way I see is by working on your days off.
If you work hard by selling your days off, your reward will be money and thatīs it. I donīt think it should qualify for earlier promotion. Everyone gets his shot at it when itīs his time.
(Iīm absolutely sure you donīt mean working harder by taking less fuel, accepting aircraft of questionable servicability, going below minima etc, though the bean counters and managers at some airlines would certainly love that.)
Every pilot in my airline gets his roster and works accordingly, therīs no way of affecting the amount of duty. The only way I see is by working on your days off.
If you work hard by selling your days off, your reward will be money and thatīs it. I donīt think it should qualify for earlier promotion. Everyone gets his shot at it when itīs his time.
(Iīm absolutely sure you donīt mean working harder by taking less fuel, accepting aircraft of questionable servicability, going below minima etc, though the bean counters and managers at some airlines would certainly love that.)
After flying for 22 years, I have yet to meet a pilot who did not think that he was better than his peers. At least the seniority system saves us the cost of counseling when your junior is selected ahead of you for command because management thought that he was better than you..............
We are in one of the only jobs in the world where experience probably outweighs ability, certainly in the LHS. You can be a very good/safe captain without being the world's best pilot. The inverse is also true.
One thing about a seniority list and the avoidance of DEC, is that the people in the LHS are used to company procedures and routes and are known to the company. There are also years of flying in the RHS where ingrained errors/behaviours/high risk characteristics can be identified and addressed.
Sure, it is not a perfect system, but it is very difficult to measure command ability, even in the sim and that is unfortunately what you need to measure if you move to a merit based system. Flying ability counts for very little in the LHS (obviously there is a basic minimum requirement for stick and rudder skills, but most pilots have that by the time they get command).
Shouldnt experience and hard work be rewarded?
So, a good compromise all around.
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Seniority list have probably had their day.
At the moment, in the UK, they are open to legal challenge on 2 fronts:
1. The higher up the seniority the generally older you are. Using seniority for pay, benefits etc is open to challenge as against the new age discrimination law.
2. A seniority list does not account for male / female split and therefore is open to challenge on sex discrimination law (this also applies to ethnic background or religion if the company keeps a record of these).
One disgruntled pilot taking private action could bring the whole system down, at least in the UK. This does not apply in the US where specific legislation allows use of seniority lists.
Its also my belief that seniority lists also insulate pilots from market forces. When pilots are freely available it ensures peoples pay and position are protected. It also prevents companies from lowering their pilot cost during these times. On the other side when pilots are in short supply, like at present, it also prevents pilots increasing their salaries in line with the market, except for very low seniority guys, who are prepared to move to a new list. Companies benifit as pilot cost pressure is not that high.
Again, my belief, but every other profession mentioned are exposed to market forces, except pilots. Take lawyers, too many lawyers in an area, or someone not being as good as the others results in a reduction in salary. Too few or your an excellent lawyer, increase in salary. I don't really see why pilots should be different in this respect.
At the moment, in the UK, they are open to legal challenge on 2 fronts:
1. The higher up the seniority the generally older you are. Using seniority for pay, benefits etc is open to challenge as against the new age discrimination law.
2. A seniority list does not account for male / female split and therefore is open to challenge on sex discrimination law (this also applies to ethnic background or religion if the company keeps a record of these).
One disgruntled pilot taking private action could bring the whole system down, at least in the UK. This does not apply in the US where specific legislation allows use of seniority lists.
Its also my belief that seniority lists also insulate pilots from market forces. When pilots are freely available it ensures peoples pay and position are protected. It also prevents companies from lowering their pilot cost during these times. On the other side when pilots are in short supply, like at present, it also prevents pilots increasing their salaries in line with the market, except for very low seniority guys, who are prepared to move to a new list. Companies benifit as pilot cost pressure is not that high.
Again, my belief, but every other profession mentioned are exposed to market forces, except pilots. Take lawyers, too many lawyers in an area, or someone not being as good as the others results in a reduction in salary. Too few or your an excellent lawyer, increase in salary. I don't really see why pilots should be different in this respect.
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So swedish, how you measure a good pilot. Like a lawer??? if he win more cases he earns more money? Something like If he crash and kill 200 he will not get a pay rise???
Lawers and pilots, an excelent way to compare. My god.
Please, be serious.
Lawers and pilots, an excelent way to compare. My god.
Please, be serious.
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If you want to earn like a 30 year old British Airways Captain you need to enter British Airways, became Captain, pass all the checks and wait 30 years.
Seniority is for big boys that like to play with rules.
Big companies have rules. Seniority is part of those big boys rules. Beside that, seniority prevents that some assholes blow some managment dick for a promotion.
Why people dont like to wait for their turn? Why people like to bypass all their senior mates just for a strip??
Seniority is for big boys that like to play with rules.
Big companies have rules. Seniority is part of those big boys rules. Beside that, seniority prevents that some assholes blow some managment dick for a promotion.
Why people dont like to wait for their turn? Why people like to bypass all their senior mates just for a strip??
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Seniority is for big boys that like to play with rules.
Big companies have rules. Seniority is part of those big boys rules. Beside that, seniority prevents that some assholes blow some managment dick for a promotion.
