Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Krugs,
What's a 'real' jet, how much 'real' responsibility is involved with the lives of several hundred people, and can you clearly explain to all of our passengers out there, whose lives depend on what we do (and do not do) in the front end, and what you mean by 'taking it easy'?
Buggs
What's a 'real' jet, how much 'real' responsibility is involved with the lives of several hundred people, and can you clearly explain to all of our passengers out there, whose lives depend on what we do (and do not do) in the front end, and what you mean by 'taking it easy'?
Buggs
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Swedish - You said: "I don't really see why pilots should be different in this respect."
In fact there are very few professions that can be fairly compared to that of airline pilot and I don't think doctors and lawyers are a fair comparison at all, the whole structure of our working life is so different.
Doctors have to keep themselves up to date with changes in medicine and keep people alive who will eventually die anyway. Lawyers have to keep themselves up to date with the law and precedent etc. and it helps if they win a few cases, they usually still get paid when they lose!
In addition to pilots keeping themselves thoroughly up to date with their aircraft and the operation they have to pass two base checks, one instrument rating and one line check per year as well as two medicals. I don't see any similarity there at all with lawyers and doctors.
In addition I'll bet you that seniority lists are still legally in use in ten years time! It is very discriminatory to accelerate a junior pilot past his colleagues to a better paid job if those bypassed can all pass their checks and training too, far more so than rewarding length of service/loyalty by giving the best jobs to those who have been there the longest and can pass all the necessary training. Where is the unfair discrimination in a seniority system that rewards length of service providing all else is up to standard for promotion and would it stand the test of a court case?
In fact there are very few professions that can be fairly compared to that of airline pilot and I don't think doctors and lawyers are a fair comparison at all, the whole structure of our working life is so different.
Doctors have to keep themselves up to date with changes in medicine and keep people alive who will eventually die anyway. Lawyers have to keep themselves up to date with the law and precedent etc. and it helps if they win a few cases, they usually still get paid when they lose!
In addition to pilots keeping themselves thoroughly up to date with their aircraft and the operation they have to pass two base checks, one instrument rating and one line check per year as well as two medicals. I don't see any similarity there at all with lawyers and doctors.
In addition I'll bet you that seniority lists are still legally in use in ten years time! It is very discriminatory to accelerate a junior pilot past his colleagues to a better paid job if those bypassed can all pass their checks and training too, far more so than rewarding length of service/loyalty by giving the best jobs to those who have been there the longest and can pass all the necessary training. Where is the unfair discrimination in a seniority system that rewards length of service providing all else is up to standard for promotion and would it stand the test of a court case?
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Seniority doesn’t mean you will be captain when time comes. Seniority assures that you will have the opportunity to prove you can be Captain when your time comes. You still need pass the check ride as any other pilot.
If you scrap it one thing you will have is hundred of pilots flying aircraft not in flyable conditions just to gain a promotion. Or to maintain it because you are scare that the company will hire new Taliban pilots because they are cheaper or they fly in any conditions.
If you scrap it one thing you will have is hundred of pilots flying aircraft not in flyable conditions just to gain a promotion. Or to maintain it because you are scare that the company will hire new Taliban pilots because they are cheaper or they fly in any conditions.
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Seniority:
If you already got it, you'll want it.
Seniority should be for the following:
1. Years served for annual increments.
2. When available,you get a shot at command/Check Pilot/TRI/TRE
3. In case of redundancy, Last in First out.
4. In case of re-hire, hire insame sequence as before..(save cost of reselection and retraining, provided the pilot is still out of a job)
5. For management/ training posts , a sequence of lists to follow for consideration.
It should not be for:
1. Discriminate on account of sex, ethnic origin, etc. by factoring them in.
2. Making bids for sectors which pay more. since he is being paid more due to "seniority". Making bids bcoz of other reasons like family children studying etc IMHO are acceptable, but such reasons are often not bonafide.
3. ASSUMING COMMAND IS DUE AND A RIGHT., since I have the Seniority.
As for taking seniority with you for the next job, it is like eating your cake and having it.
In case of mergers, bankruptcy etc, there is still a form of protection. Commanders will get a job in preference to a "junior F/O" for any other airline,
albeit, not tohis liking, Look hard enough and experience always pays. It may not be where you want but a commander with x000's of hours will always be preferred to 200hcpl anywhere in the world.
Without it @sslicking and apple polishing will only rise.
The key is Seniority AND Skill set. with mgmt retaing flexibility to upgrade if the Skill Set exists and seniority may be waived off
If you already got it, you'll want it.
Seniority should be for the following:
1. Years served for annual increments.
2. When available,you get a shot at command/Check Pilot/TRI/TRE
3. In case of redundancy, Last in First out.
4. In case of re-hire, hire insame sequence as before..(save cost of reselection and retraining, provided the pilot is still out of a job)
5. For management/ training posts , a sequence of lists to follow for consideration.
It should not be for:
1. Discriminate on account of sex, ethnic origin, etc. by factoring them in.
2. Making bids for sectors which pay more. since he is being paid more due to "seniority". Making bids bcoz of other reasons like family children studying etc IMHO are acceptable, but such reasons are often not bonafide.
3. ASSUMING COMMAND IS DUE AND A RIGHT., since I have the Seniority.
As for taking seniority with you for the next job, it is like eating your cake and having it.
In case of mergers, bankruptcy etc, there is still a form of protection. Commanders will get a job in preference to a "junior F/O" for any other airline,
albeit, not tohis liking, Look hard enough and experience always pays. It may not be where you want but a commander with x000's of hours will always be preferred to 200hcpl anywhere in the world.
Without it @sslicking and apple polishing will only rise.
The key is Seniority AND Skill set. with mgmt retaing flexibility to upgrade if the Skill Set exists and seniority may be waived off
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900
Not any more.
We no longer have immunity.
FL
Incidentally, barristers are (were when I was studying that milarky) immune in UK law from law suits for negligence / incompetence.
We no longer have immunity.
FL
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Buggs,
What I mean by taking it easy is not having a SAM pointed at you, slepping in barracks and earning peanuts.
I really prefer slepping in a nice hotel, having a nice meal wherever I go and being able to pay the bills.
Ah ! And having an union to fight for my rights....
Check Six Krueger
What I mean by taking it easy is not having a SAM pointed at you, slepping in barracks and earning peanuts.
I really prefer slepping in a nice hotel, having a nice meal wherever I go and being able to pay the bills.
Ah ! And having an union to fight for my rights....
Check Six Krueger
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The analogy with the medical profession is compelling.
I've just passed out of medical school and want a Ferrari and a big house. I should be allowed to be a senior registar
Nuff said.
I've just passed out of medical school and want a Ferrari and a big house. I should be allowed to be a senior registar
Nuff said.
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Seniority / Self Interest
Some intersting posts.
Captain Peacock - I know you are not suggesting that an immediate post grad medic should operate on someone's mother. Seniority is not the issue but competence is.
Parabellum - When you joined your airline (my assumption) others attempted to join too but were unsuccessful. They were no doubt disappointed but would understand that the best person got the job (not the eldest or most senior). Presumably the difference between you and the unsuccessful applicants (let's say they could all actually fly planes) was somehow measureable and objectively justifiable. Similarly for those who are successful in gaining comand, becoming training captains etc. when in competition for finite places. So, how can we not measure performance generally? Why are pilots to be the only group of workers (outside of friendly Zimbabwean officials) not subject to robust objective scrutiny?
7Q you are a worry! 6 minutes to post an even angrier defence of the indefencible?
All other professionals are subject to CPD and manage to get by without providing oral sex to those in influence over their careers - or is it only pilots who do not? Perleeaase!!
Others have answered as to why seniority is on its last legs and I expect those of you who have suffered the ass end of the system will eagerly await your turn. Bad luck. If you aint gonna get it in 5, it will not happen via this system anyway. Someone (nice and junior, probably looking for greater flexibility) will challenge it and win under one to three heads of UK discrimation law.
Good luck to 'em I say
Captain Peacock - I know you are not suggesting that an immediate post grad medic should operate on someone's mother. Seniority is not the issue but competence is.
Parabellum - When you joined your airline (my assumption) others attempted to join too but were unsuccessful. They were no doubt disappointed but would understand that the best person got the job (not the eldest or most senior). Presumably the difference between you and the unsuccessful applicants (let's say they could all actually fly planes) was somehow measureable and objectively justifiable. Similarly for those who are successful in gaining comand, becoming training captains etc. when in competition for finite places. So, how can we not measure performance generally? Why are pilots to be the only group of workers (outside of friendly Zimbabwean officials) not subject to robust objective scrutiny?
7Q you are a worry! 6 minutes to post an even angrier defence of the indefencible?
All other professionals are subject to CPD and manage to get by without providing oral sex to those in influence over their careers - or is it only pilots who do not? Perleeaase!!
Others have answered as to why seniority is on its last legs and I expect those of you who have suffered the ass end of the system will eagerly await your turn. Bad luck. If you aint gonna get it in 5, it will not happen via this system anyway. Someone (nice and junior, probably looking for greater flexibility) will challenge it and win under one to three heads of UK discrimation law.
Good luck to 'em I say
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The analogy with the medical profession is compelling.
I've just passed out of medical school and want a Ferrari and a big house. I should be allowed to be a senior registar
I've just passed out of medical school and want a Ferrari and a big house. I should be allowed to be a senior registar
There are a fair number of consultants who are only 30. Some never make it, nor are interested. It is a meritocracy and not based upon seniority, yet remains entirely safe.
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I am curious as to why people who are not pilots, and are not affected by this question, feel the need to voice their opinion? Other than to feed the chip on their shoulder that is.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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900 said: "Why are pilots to be the only group of workers (outside of friendly Zimbabwean officials) not subject to robust objective scrutiny?"
Well, how about two base checks a year, one instrument rating and a line check for objective scrutiny? These checks confirm that an individual, having reached a required standard, is maintaining it, so, if everyone is of the required standard what other measure do you have left to determine who gets promoted?
As far as who gets employed is concerned how do you propose to remove an employers right to employ the candidate they feel most suitable for the position on offer? Are you suggesting that an employer must advise all failed candidates of the reason they didn't get the job? I would have thought that if there are only a set number of vacancies the employer must be allowed to retain the right to decide who they want. If I were asked why I had chosen A instead of B my answer would probably be along the lines of, "As the CEO/Chief Pilot, in company with our Training Manager, HR Manager and a random selection of an 'available on the day' Captain and First Officer it was our collective decision that candidate A would fit in best with our company, maintaining the peaceful, harmonious and above all safe environment that we currently operate in" or words to that effect, as dictated by the company legal advisers.
I doubt very much if there will be a successful challenge in the courts any time soon bearing in mind that discrimination is everywhere, I am charged more than a child to travel on public transport, for instance, so I am being discriminated against for being an adult, is that fair? Well I think it is. To win a case in court won't it be necessary to prove unfair discrimination? As I have asked a couple of times already to those who think a legal challenge to seniority will succeed, how do you propose to prove your point?
On a practical note, the aggrieved FO will be just about able to afford his local solicitor and the airlines will retain Beaumont & Son.
Well, how about two base checks a year, one instrument rating and a line check for objective scrutiny? These checks confirm that an individual, having reached a required standard, is maintaining it, so, if everyone is of the required standard what other measure do you have left to determine who gets promoted?
As far as who gets employed is concerned how do you propose to remove an employers right to employ the candidate they feel most suitable for the position on offer? Are you suggesting that an employer must advise all failed candidates of the reason they didn't get the job? I would have thought that if there are only a set number of vacancies the employer must be allowed to retain the right to decide who they want. If I were asked why I had chosen A instead of B my answer would probably be along the lines of, "As the CEO/Chief Pilot, in company with our Training Manager, HR Manager and a random selection of an 'available on the day' Captain and First Officer it was our collective decision that candidate A would fit in best with our company, maintaining the peaceful, harmonious and above all safe environment that we currently operate in" or words to that effect, as dictated by the company legal advisers.
I doubt very much if there will be a successful challenge in the courts any time soon bearing in mind that discrimination is everywhere, I am charged more than a child to travel on public transport, for instance, so I am being discriminated against for being an adult, is that fair? Well I think it is. To win a case in court won't it be necessary to prove unfair discrimination? As I have asked a couple of times already to those who think a legal challenge to seniority will succeed, how do you propose to prove your point?
On a practical note, the aggrieved FO will be just about able to afford his local solicitor and the airlines will retain Beaumont & Son.
Last edited by parabellum; 22nd Aug 2007 at 00:45.
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900 why I like seniority? Easy my friend, I am pilot in an airline. 99 percent of the guys like it. When I fly my aircraft I dont change the company SOP because I dont like what it say. I follow it. Here is the same. Big companies have rules and unions. Part of the rules is seniority. Why I must change a fair system just to satisfy some guy with a big EGO that pretends to be 747 Captain before senior guys?? 
The day a become a lawyer or a doctor I will need to change the rules because things there are done different. But I am not a lawyer nor a Doctor
The day a become a lawyer or a doctor I will need to change the rules because things there are done different. But I am not a lawyer nor a Doctor
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I'm also curious as to why people think a legal challenge to seniority would succeed. In my company a sizeable proportion of the people junior to me are older than me. If they were to complain about discrimination in favour of youth the company would simply point to all the older people than I who are now 747 Captains. If they were to complain of discrimination against youth then they'd just point to anyone younger than them but more senior.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Seniority only works properly, of course, when the intake stream of new guys and gals is balanced by a measured number of retirements out the top end. Ideally, there should be a sufficient number 'old farts' to provide the experiential environment the 'young whippersnappers' so badly need.
It tends to break down in two ways; when the airline stops growing and all progression stops with it, leading to that frustrating place so many pilots know so well, the senior first officer syndrome.
The other, as in the 25 year-old commander thread on this page, happens when the airline grows rapidly and promotes pilots far too inexperienced for the position.
Given the choice of travel arrangements for myself and my family, I would not hesitate to stay away from, and recommend anyone else do the same, those airlines that place expansion plans ahead of safety by putting 25 year-olds in the left seat of complex modern airliners.
It tends to break down in two ways; when the airline stops growing and all progression stops with it, leading to that frustrating place so many pilots know so well, the senior first officer syndrome.
The other, as in the 25 year-old commander thread on this page, happens when the airline grows rapidly and promotes pilots far too inexperienced for the position.
Given the choice of travel arrangements for myself and my family, I would not hesitate to stay away from, and recommend anyone else do the same, those airlines that place expansion plans ahead of safety by putting 25 year-olds in the left seat of complex modern airliners.
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Seniority - a thing of the past (soon)
I'm not a pilot nor am I someone who wishes to be. Clarence, I hope I'm not disqualified from having a view?
7Q - it's the 1% that should worry you 'cus that's where the claim will come from.
Parabellum & Hand Solo - I can't really see the power of your argument. Discrimination is lawful. We do it all the time. We choose and therefore discriminate. Unfair discrimination may also be lawful. Until October last year in the UK, it was perfectly lawful to discriminate on the grounds of age (though some would say that was unfair).
However, unlawful discrimination, either direct or indirect is the issue and in my view seniority will be proved to be unlawful no matter how unpalletable that seems or pushy viewed from those at the top looking at the bottom.
Age discrimination is unlawful in the UK. The vast majority of those at the higher end of the seniority list will be older than those at the lower end. I think that is normally the case, certainly in the legacy airlines.
If being at the upper end of the seniority list gives you better pay & conditions than those at the lower end? and there is a measurable average age difference twixt the two, in the absence of an objectively justifiable reason, the different treatment will be unlawful.
Question - other than huff & puff - is there an objectively justifiable reason? I'm confident that BALPA isn't confident. Is there a rogue in a hurry out there somewhere?
That's why I'm confident of a challenge.
7Q - it's the 1% that should worry you 'cus that's where the claim will come from.
Parabellum & Hand Solo - I can't really see the power of your argument. Discrimination is lawful. We do it all the time. We choose and therefore discriminate. Unfair discrimination may also be lawful. Until October last year in the UK, it was perfectly lawful to discriminate on the grounds of age (though some would say that was unfair).
However, unlawful discrimination, either direct or indirect is the issue and in my view seniority will be proved to be unlawful no matter how unpalletable that seems or pushy viewed from those at the top looking at the bottom.
Age discrimination is unlawful in the UK. The vast majority of those at the higher end of the seniority list will be older than those at the lower end. I think that is normally the case, certainly in the legacy airlines.
If being at the upper end of the seniority list gives you better pay & conditions than those at the lower end? and there is a measurable average age difference twixt the two, in the absence of an objectively justifiable reason, the different treatment will be unlawful.
Question - other than huff & puff - is there an objectively justifiable reason? I'm confident that BALPA isn't confident. Is there a rogue in a hurry out there somewhere?
That's why I'm confident of a challenge.
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Everybody can have a view. Some will even claim they are entitled to have one. Whether said view is of any relevance or concern is another matter entirely.
It is always important to understand the motives behind an opinion. Even when they are somewhat obscure.
Hobbes described it well I believe.
It is always important to understand the motives behind an opinion. Even when they are somewhat obscure.
Hobbes described it well I believe.
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Man gives indifferent names to one and the same thing from the difference of their own passions; as they that approve a private opinion call it opinion; but they that mislike it, heresy: and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion.
I digress...
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900 - I can't really see the power of your argument either. In fact I can't see what your argument is at all. All you are doing are saying that in your opinion seniority will be declared unlawful, yet you don't actually present a real reason why that should be. You allude to a general relationship between age and seniority yet, as already mentioned, that does not necessarily hold true. I know of 747 training captains in my airline who are younger than new entrants. Age discrimination? I think not. There are many captains flying with younger FOs. When one joins my company you sign up to a 24 year incremental pay contract, a contract you will progress through regardless of age. That contract is open to anyone who passes selection, regardless of age. So lets hear your reasons why seniority represents age discrimination rather than a "first come first served" principle. Perhaps next time I go to the bakery, join a queue of 20 people and then get to the front to find there are no pies left I should sue them for discrimination. After all, those ahead of me may be of different ages, but by your argument older people than me had the chance to get ahead of me in the pie queue by joining it before my birth and it's discriminatory that they should get a pie and I don't simply because they were in the line ahead of me. Probably breaches my human rights too!