Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash
ex-Tanker
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Exactly what I meant Seloco something has to give - ie. break. You can't wind a screw jack back by pressure of course - that is why it is often used in this application - you can however break the structure / mechanism.
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Apparently the CVR has been "fixed" by Boeing.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...3/s1874431.htm
The chief investigator confirms speed was high and suggests that flaps would not extend because of it (if I am reading this correctly and allowing for journalistic licence)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...3/s1874431.htm
The chief investigator confirms speed was high and suggests that flaps would not extend because of it (if I am reading this correctly and allowing for journalistic licence)
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From the Reuters article above:
The chief crash investigator, Mardjono Siswosuwarno, says the aircraft's wing flaps failed to extend for landing and that might have been caused by the high speed.
"This could be a contributing factor, but what is more important is that the plane's speed was higher than normal. Why? We don't know yet," Mr Siswosuwarno said, from the National Transport Safety Commission, told Reuters.
The questions now become, what would be the options for the pilots (assuming they were aware of the flap problem) as they were coming in without proper flap config?
Also what could cause such a malfunction?
The chief crash investigator, Mardjono Siswosuwarno, says the aircraft's wing flaps failed to extend for landing and that might have been caused by the high speed.
"This could be a contributing factor, but what is more important is that the plane's speed was higher than normal. Why? We don't know yet," Mr Siswosuwarno said, from the National Transport Safety Commission, told Reuters.
The questions now become, what would be the options for the pilots (assuming they were aware of the flap problem) as they were coming in without proper flap config?
Also what could cause such a malfunction?
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Few Cloudy:
I think we are in agreement FC, but my point is that it is unlikely that the various flap sections would be forced neatly back into their semi-stowed '15' position, which is what the site pictures appear to show; rather they would be distorted upwards but still in their original articulated positions.
Anyway this is now probably academic as the investigating authorities appear to have confirmed that the landing was made without the flaps being in normal landing configuration, and additionally claim that this because the aircraft was going too fast for them to be so. I'm sure a poster will (if they haven't already) set out the minimum speeds for each flap increment for us.
In the meantime it seems that the CVR has now been successfully decoded, which will hopefully shed more light on the cause, and perhaps confirm/deny some of the rumours swirling round Jakarta last week.
Exactly what I meant Seloco something has to give - ie. break. You can't wind a screw jack back by pressure of course - that is why it is often used in this application - you can however break the structure / mechanism.
Anyway this is now probably academic as the investigating authorities appear to have confirmed that the landing was made without the flaps being in normal landing configuration, and additionally claim that this because the aircraft was going too fast for them to be so. I'm sure a poster will (if they haven't already) set out the minimum speeds for each flap increment for us.
In the meantime it seems that the CVR has now been successfully decoded, which will hopefully shed more light on the cause, and perhaps confirm/deny some of the rumours swirling round Jakarta last week.
aahh...
But if the flaps would not extend because of high speed, that means that they were kept at 15 by flap load relief. If that were the case, the flaps would extend to the selected setting during the landing roll as the plane was decelerating.
They did not.
Therefore, the flap lever was in 15, and the flaps stayed there. Apparently the crew did not have time/forgot to select flaps 30.
And that would be OK (sort of) if they simply had made a go-around.
But if the flaps would not extend because of high speed, that means that they were kept at 15 by flap load relief. If that were the case, the flaps would extend to the selected setting during the landing roll as the plane was decelerating.
They did not.
Therefore, the flap lever was in 15, and the flaps stayed there. Apparently the crew did not have time/forgot to select flaps 30.
And that would be OK (sort of) if they simply had made a go-around.
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and additionally claim that this because the aircraft was going too fast for them to be so
suggests that flaps would not extend because of it
Fox Niner - We still don't know where the flap lever was before runway contact - maybe 15, maybe 30, maybe moved back to 15 for an attempt at going around. Maybe the crew never moved the handle beyond 15 because they already knew they were above Vfe for flap 30.
"Therefore, the flap lever was in 15, and the flaps stayed there" The flap handle stays where its put - irrespective of flap load relief operating or not.
In any case, a go-around at Yogya isn't just "completely straighforward" - there are other considerations (as mentioned earlier in the thread: traffic ahead, terrain, etc.).
----------------------------------------
It seems like a lot of people have dived on flap load relief because of the mention of problems with flap extension - to me personally, I wouldn't regard the operation of load relief as a "problem regarding flap extension". It's there for a good reason - the best example being encountering gusts/or shear which might otherwise cause overload damage. The use of the words 'problem' or 'difficulty' implies, to me at least, a malfunction/breakage etc, not the normal operation of the relief system. Flap assym' or other flap drive faults are still possibilities also. At then end of the day, we are still dealing for the most part with media reports - and there are still a lot of unknowns. None of us know what has been said in crew statements - and we are unlikely to find out for quite some time.
Deleted this pic from Page 6 and placed it here. B707. Flaps remained at selected position. B737 different? Haven't flown a 707 but the comments about this prang can be find via the pictures link.
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See post 43 page 11
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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There's an awful lot of rubbish and speculation on this thread, so can we PLEASE lay the 'flap load relief' wild rabbit to rest as has been pointed out before? There is no such thing at Flap 30 on the Classic, only on the NG. The CERTIFICATION RECOMMENDED flap limit for flap more than 15 is 190kts, and if they landed at more than that.................
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BOAC not sure what classic (734) you have been flying but the last one I stepped out of had a nice big notch of flap 30, the one just before 40...
In saying that though, Im with you on the load relief – drop it!
This all comes down to one thing and one thing only, pure and outright negligence.
THEN, the pilots had the ordacity to make excuse after excuse. The box never lies, trust me, ask it anything
There is one thing that is 100% controllable and that is your speed. In saying that, contrary to any sort of flap problem, they still did not manager their approach or their aircraft. One fella mentioned previously – what ever happened to the Go Around? 15 clicks would have been fine, even if the thing was stuck! The only excuse I can see here that might be worthwhile is that one of the dashboard crew had a bad case of Diarea and needed to get it out quick – that would be a worthwhile excuse in some sickening case – Aviate, Navigate & Communicate with the element of ****iate if needed – their goes that maturity level!
These 2 pilots have not only destroyed their own career, both by telling fibs and being inconsiderate pilots, they have also destroyed the reputation of all pilots - once the media get it out.
As if it is not hard enough having pax who are extremely scared of flying, and wonder how and if the plane will fly (the good ol' "will it fall out of the sky" theory), now we will have to deal with the "can the pilots really fly this plane" said Martha, "yeah, especially after those 2 pilots from Garuda flew it to fast" quoted Marg. Keep in mind, the Media will not display all the who-har about the situation, it will just be published as “Pilots, to fast” or maybe even “Pilot clocked at 350km/hr, kills many, receive's speeding fine”. Don’t laugh, it could be true, they only want the gory and vilifying details.
All I ask is that don’t look to deep in to the situation, check out the basics of it all – half of us are not LAME’s, we just know how the damn thing flys and how to keep it up there, not every little rivet, screw and liquid nail used to hold the thing together (Journos, use that one for me
). Any technical talking will give the journos, who are no doubt hounding this forum, more fuel to play with – lets let them keep their current story – to fast.
Cheers.
In saying that though, Im with you on the load relief – drop it!
This all comes down to one thing and one thing only, pure and outright negligence.
THEN, the pilots had the ordacity to make excuse after excuse. The box never lies, trust me, ask it anything
There is one thing that is 100% controllable and that is your speed. In saying that, contrary to any sort of flap problem, they still did not manager their approach or their aircraft. One fella mentioned previously – what ever happened to the Go Around? 15 clicks would have been fine, even if the thing was stuck! The only excuse I can see here that might be worthwhile is that one of the dashboard crew had a bad case of Diarea and needed to get it out quick – that would be a worthwhile excuse in some sickening case – Aviate, Navigate & Communicate with the element of ****iate if needed – their goes that maturity level!
These 2 pilots have not only destroyed their own career, both by telling fibs and being inconsiderate pilots, they have also destroyed the reputation of all pilots - once the media get it out.
As if it is not hard enough having pax who are extremely scared of flying, and wonder how and if the plane will fly (the good ol' "will it fall out of the sky" theory), now we will have to deal with the "can the pilots really fly this plane" said Martha, "yeah, especially after those 2 pilots from Garuda flew it to fast" quoted Marg. Keep in mind, the Media will not display all the who-har about the situation, it will just be published as “Pilots, to fast” or maybe even “Pilot clocked at 350km/hr, kills many, receive's speeding fine”. Don’t laugh, it could be true, they only want the gory and vilifying details.
All I ask is that don’t look to deep in to the situation, check out the basics of it all – half of us are not LAME’s, we just know how the damn thing flys and how to keep it up there, not every little rivet, screw and liquid nail used to hold the thing together (Journos, use that one for me
). Any technical talking will give the journos, who are no doubt hounding this forum, more fuel to play with – lets let them keep their current story – to fast.Cheers.
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Pilots report nothing abnormal prior to landing, according to ATC transcripts
Some of us Ppruners are getting sloppy at finding the facts....
How did we miss this one (from March 13th) ...
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...8-1702,00.html
How did we miss this one (from March 13th) ...
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...8-1702,00.html
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Below from Wikipedia...
"Flight GA200 originated in Jakarta and was carrying 133 passengers, At approximately 7 am local time, while attempting to land at Adisucipto International Airport, Yogyakarta, Indonesia, the plane overran the end of the runway, went through the perimeter fence and stopped in a nearby rice field.Passengers in the plane and witnesses on the ground reported the plane approached the runway at a speed greater than normal. According to passengers, the plane shook violently before it crashed.At some point the plane caught fire, and while most passengers were able to escape, a number of passengers perished inside the burning fuselage. This may have been caused by the broken main exit door, which is located at the front left.The fire may have been ignited from the nose landing gear after its wheels were snapped off, which were found later on the runway.The pilot, Captain Muhammad Marwoto Komar, claimed that there was a sudden downdraft immediately before the flight landed, and that the flaps on the aircraft may have malfunctioned. The latest theory being examined by investigators is that an airport vehicle was on the runway at the time of landing. Investigators believe that whilst the landing was high and fast, had the vehicle not been on the runway the pilot would have simply aborted the landing after touching down. Instead the pilot steered the nosewheel away at such an angle it broke off, impacting the wing and igniting the inferno."
Surely any 'Airport Vehicle' would have been aware of inbound traffic / been advised of the approching A/C via GND/ATC??
Surely any 'Airport Vehicle' would have been aware of inbound traffic / been advised of the approching A/C via GND/ATC??
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There's an awful lot of rubbish and speculation on this thread……….
There is no such thing at Flap 30 on the Classic
There is no such thing at Flap 30 on the Classic
---------------------------------------------------
THEN, the pilots had the ordacity to make excuse after excuse. The box never lies, trust me, ask it anything
haha. Honestly, I should not be joking. Apologies to those that I offend!” – Well, maybe you’ve got a point there, your ‘diarea’ theory is probably founded on the same level of factual knowledge, as that with which you express such certainty as to the blame of the crew, at this premature juncture. As for joking about the crew involved in a fatal accident – whether blameless or otherwise – the adults here can decide for themselves.
-----------------------------------------------------
AIR traffic control transcripts contradict claims by the pilots of doomed Garuda airlines flight 200 that a sudden downdraft was to blame for the crash.
time, no-one ever said there was a sudden downdraugt, not the crew, not Captain Stephanus, nor anyone else….just a mention of one word by way of an explanation to the idiots and……. the birth of yet another media red herring which they invented and propagated. Anyone who has bothered to read the rest of the thread would have already known that days ago.
Sky News reports this morning that investigators claim the accident was caused by excessive speed at landing.
It's sounding more and more like a "rushed approach" which, unfortunately this time, ended in disaster... 
Conditions have been reported as benign. I would have thought a landing at Vref15 (if that was as much flap as was available) was still possible in 2200m; I'd guess you'd need c.1800m at MLW, although it's been a while since I flew the "classic".
Conditions have been reported as benign. I would have thought a landing at Vref15 (if that was as much flap as was available) was still possible in 2200m; I'd guess you'd need c.1800m at MLW, although it's been a while since I flew the "classic".
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Fewcloudy,
Here's the right wing T/E
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...2/DSC00060.jpg
G-MKAA,
As much as I like wikipedia, I must say that a lot of the things there on this crash are wrong...
Indeed. There was 1 preceeding traffic a military trainer. Now for vehicles to cross the runway, they'd call the tower on the air ops tower freq. or call the tower on the ground ops frequency...
PK-KAR
Here's the right wing T/E
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...2/DSC00060.jpg
G-MKAA,
As much as I like wikipedia, I must say that a lot of the things there on this crash are wrong...
Surely any 'Airport Vehicle' would have been aware of inbound traffic / been advised of the approching A/C via GND/ATC??
PK-KAR