Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash

[Clandestino]

The account by Mr. Bertelloti is clear, straightforward and unembellished. He is observant and clear headed and is familiar enough with flying to be aware that the flaps are normally extended for landing. He is in short, a credible witness.

Mr Bertellotti, a journalist with Italian TV

...is the guy who went directly after mishap into town to buy new clothes because his old were stained with blood as a consequence of him being a pax on a plane that crashed. To call him reliable witness would also imply admitting him to posess quite a dose of uebermenschness. Perhaps it was flapless landing, perhaps there was downdraft, perhaps they were too fast as they came to land, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps...perhaps we should wait till FDR shows which witnessess are truly reliable?

[Few Cloudy]

That's the point

Until we see the FDR readings we won't know anything about configuration, ROD, IAS etc. Just because flaps appear not to be at appropriate landing setting after a crash doesn't neccessarily mean they were like that all through the manoever.

Wait and see still applies.

[lomapaseo]

It is my fervent wish that the Indonesian Authorities and their helpers at the ATSB and Boeing/Honeywell/FAA/whatever are working in a spirit of full and open cooperation to understand what has happened and learn from it, bearing in mind that it could happen again anywhere in the world, if the cause is not understood and dealt with.

It would be a tragedy if this investigation degenerated into a nationalistic fight and I respectfully suggest that Pprune people should do their best to arrest any trends in this direction.

I have full confidence in the Indonesian Authorities to investigate this matter properly. Indonesia is a smart country.

I have no fears about the thoroughness of the investgation.

It's the response afterwards that matters.

Indeed with the Indonesian, Australian and US investigators there is little worry about them missing anything. However issues having to do with internal operations remains in the province of the State of operation,

[theamrad]

Here we go again.
Just when it seems most on this thread are doing their best to approach things from a knowledgeable/reasoned/informed/responsible perspective, and the general consensus seems to be to try to demonstrate self-restraint and “wait and see” what the recorders throw up, this agendised turns up.

union chief would want to cover up guilt

With prejudice for PK-KAR’s comments above – the presumption here being that Captain Stephanus “editorialised” the comments made to him by the crew. He only claimed to be repeating what was said to him. By all accounts – he never made any other claim about his statements. In this neck of the woods – rubbish like that would be bordering on libellous.

find this rather offensive……

Personally I think there’s additional material which is even more offensive – and more of it pointing to the authors ‘intentions’ here. Offensive to all things Indonesian – and, personally, i think offensive to the intelligence of most sane individuals.

My editorializing in the blog was not meant to offend you or anyone else (sincerely sorry if it did),

…………….HORSE

Some of your other “editorialisations” about this accident – more accurately your opinions:

LET the STUPIDITY, the SCAMS and COVER-UPS BEGIN!!.................
laying out the Conspiracy Theory that 240 million clueless sheep will swallow! ..............Bring the whole family from the kampong to view charred bodies:………………….
shows where the tire of the nose wheel obviously shredded off the rim…………..
The first hint that it may have been sabotage………………..Dudi goes on to whinge and whine because……………….
The odd little minds of ignoramuses unwilling to accept blame……………….
Local cops having a looky loo and discussing "compensation":……………………
Flight attendants are not just there to be pretty face…………………………</SPAN>
Pilot error has so far loomed large as the reason behind Wednesday's disaster. ………………….
fuel line under the wing had exploded

“Material” purporting to concern the missing Adamair flight:

Perhaps their looting everything they can get, like wallets, jewelry and anything else of value…………………..
but within 10 kilometers there is a wall of 600m + mountains, which he slammed into……………………..
I can just hear the javanese army boys now, "eh pusing banget, capet sekali dong."………….
The plane was hijacked by jihadi boys, turned off all the coms and flew below the radar to the southern Phillipines landing on a remote airstrip. They will hold the passengers for ransom (Abu Sayyaf and MILF are accustomed to this sort of thing), then fill the plane to the brim with dynamite or c-4 or whatever they can get, and train some guy who's ready to meet his virgins, and fly the 10,000 pound bomb into ??????? (take you're best guess -- I'll take a shot and say they go for the US embassy in Singapore or Manila)......................had their HPs off, so the only explanation is the jihad boys, collected them all straight away and disabled them………………………..
does Indonesia have it's own "Bermuda Triangle"????...............

Ah well, efficiency is never a priority, only a chance at grandstanding matters for these kooks......................
SERF1: Er... uhhh... I'm not a dimwit pak, I still have to do this regular stuff for at least 6 more years to get promoted to dimwit. If you want to speak to His Honourable Chief of the Unitary Republic of Indonesia's Dimwit cor......
it's in their friggin' DNA here.................
Maybe the air force was paid by someone to blow it to smithereens.

Some of your forums other “contributors”

Just a wild idea (just may be)...possibility of suicide killer?
I don't want to call it a "Mickey Mouse" country as that would deeply offend Mickey...........
As indonesian is so boringly simple - why not just post the original text - after all , a goat can learn to speak it , and perhaps if there is a goat around - it can help Ross .
I suspect Ross has quite a few goats round .

THE POINT is pro-govt

Well then – at least they would be pro-something Indonesian – as opposed to anti-everything Indonesian. – Since you demonstrate such poisonous and acidic disdain for Indonesia and Indonesians – why do you stay there?

criticism of politicians, bureaucrats, media and airline execs

and “240 million clueless sheep”

Bring the whole family from the kampong to view charred bodies:………………….

IMO – a truly disgusting remark which warrants nothing more than disdain. Grow the up!

I’m not sure what motivated you to come here, but, since you already have YOUR OWN forum and a means for voicing this speculative, childish, unfounded and racially abusive – is there some overriding reason why you felt it necessary to come to this forum and infect the discussion here with your agenda? Fortunately, most of us have already been able to enjoy a balanced source of valid information from someone who knows ‘something’ about Indonesian aviation. You say you are a ‘research consultant’ – for who - Sky news, Fox news, the Heritage institute? You mean to suggest that with opinions like yours you would actually have 'clients' in Indonesia?! I can’t see anything which adds to the debate other than a tirade of negative nonsense. All questions of course being rhetorical – I’ve no interest in reading a response!

I have no difficulty in placing a hell of lot more confidence in the investigator’s final conclusions, than the 'editorialised' version which will, no doubt be written.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be a tragedy if this investigation degenerated into a nationalistic fight

Yestam - I don't think that actually will happen - but it's highly likely that certain elements of the media might suggest it - especially if they nothing better to do.

The account by Mr. Bertelloti is clear, straightforward and unembellished. He is observant and clear headed and is familiar enough with flying to be aware that the flaps are normally extended for landing. He is in short, a credible witness.

I think I agree with the tone of Clandestino on this one - but then in fairness - in what I saw - the gentleman concerned only said he 'thought' the flaps weren't down - he was more definitive about the spoilers. In any case.... perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

I had to spend 4 hrs at a local TV station on Sunday evening lecturing them on what is possible, what isn't, and the things they've mistranslated. And the faces they had about 'Oh Sh1t! We did bad!' was countless!

Well - I suppose at least you got an acknowledgement - unlike maybe Sky News

[lomapaseo]

theamrad

Reposting libelous (sic) material from other rarely read sources does nothing to address your concerns about what has been said. All you do is increase the readership and the level of confusion.

[fox niner]

So why exactly did you copy/paste all these outrageous remarks when they never contributed to a meaningful discussion in the first place?

[RiccardoGRSB]

Theamrad,
That site is merely an over-the-top dose of healthy irreverence, not meant for the squeamish, and not meant to be taken too seriously, sorta dark humor and crass satire. And discussion of it does not belong in this serious forum.

My only intention here was to ask (my original question) about the CVR. Is Honeywell or Boeing looking into it? The reason for my question was that an Indonesian paper stated it was Boeing and made allegations that Boeing would try to cover up any wrongdoing in terms of A/C manufacture. I wanted to know from people here what the SOP is on something like that and if it's possible that Boeing could do such a thing as claimed.

Then someone asked me where the article was and (unfortunately) I gave the link to that "shock jock-type" blog because the paper doesn't publish online.

[theamrad]

I get your point fox Niner, but since you ask

So why exactly did you copy/paste all these outrageous remarks

because the one responsible tried to pass himself off as some kind of 'genuine contributor' in the sense of 'acting in good faith'- and then makes things worse with the statement "My editorializing in the blog was not meant to offend you or anyone else (sincerely sorry if it did)", Fox Niner - at the end of the day - there would have been no response, etc - if he hadn't ADVERTISED his own forum. we can all beat around the bush sometimes (speculation) - but that (I think) takes the prize. It would be nice to think the rest of us can get on with what you describe as 'meaningful discussion'

lomapaseo - I would normally agree with you in general - but sometimes things go off the scale - most here contribute in good faith, some are here for serious reasons - some not so serious (albeit for slightly different reasons/purposes), but if it seems an agenda, or just plain scurrilousness might be involved - I think its better to throw everything on the table - and let the 'reasonably minded' decide for themselves.

If I might humbly suggest dropping the issue now, what's said is said - since none of us come here for the sake of arguing but to debate and discuss, and I'm sure the majority won't appreciate the topic degenerating into an ass kicking contest. Although I'm sorry for the rest of you that you have to put up with a reaction from me - I mean what I said.

-------------------------------------------------------
To get back to the topic, it seems to me there won't be much more information for a while - with it looking like the CVR needs to be reconstructed. The FDR might tell us what happened - but without the CVR, we may be left not knowing why, for a while at least. Can anyone clarify the number of parameters recorded? Was the initial report of 22 accurate?

Indeed with the Indonesian, Australian and US investigators there is little worry about them missing anything. However issues having to do with internal operations remains in the province of the State of operation,

I think your right - with the Australians 'in the loop' of the actual investigaion - I think even the most skeptical about the Indonesian investigators would have a hard time arguing that anything might go amiss. My personal opinion is that I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the investigators themselves. The past seems to suggest that they take their work seriously - even if the rest of the regulatory environment doesn't function properly. I think PK-KAR would have a better informed opinion on that though.

[UNCTUOUS]

Garuda Flt 20 nosewheel (?) loss

Color me confused.
.
Was this nosewheel scrape at the point of initial touchdown (i.e. approach end of 09) or was it achieved at the departure end?
.

Did it lose tires, wheels or the whole oleo?
.
I thought I'd recalled reading that it lost its "nosewheel(s)" at the third bounce.
Can anyone clarify?

[PK-KAR]

My only intention here was to ask (my original question) about the CVR. Is Honeywell or Boeing looking into it? The reason for my question was that an Indonesian paper stated it was Boeing and made allegations that Boeing would try to cover up any wrongdoing in terms of A/C manufacture. I wanted to know from people here what the SOP is on something like that and if it's possible that Boeing could do such a thing as claimed.

It should be Honeywell... if ATSB or whoever else can't decode it, they need to look into the raw data (as in whatever was placed on the CVR remains of such)... Honeywell can then reconstruct the recording data from the raw data, which then is used by the investigators.

Manipulating the CVR doesn't serve Boeing's interest, the FDR however, can be subject to Boeing's interest to manipulate, albeit unlikely. Coz the technical defects (and/or effects thereof to the aircraft) are recorded in the FDR not the CVR.

I think your right - with the Australians 'in the loop' of the actual investigaion - I think even the most skeptical about the Indonesian investigators would have a hard time arguing that anything might go amiss. My personal opinion is that I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the investigators themselves. The past seems to suggest that they take their work seriously - even if the rest of the regulatory environment doesn't function properly. I think PK-KAR would have a better informed opinion on that though.

In the past, the data revealed doesn't get manipulated, but the interpretation of such data is what's open for discussion! This is where my worry lies in this investigation. This is why we are important in our objectivity (or whatever other forums you are member of), because the media reads forums like this and use them as sources to point to leads and speculations.

For example, the misquotation of the windshear by the GA PilotAssoc. chief, in my opinion is extremely dangerous! A late dismissal of such, have been translated as a possibility of the pilots lying! Which is not the case if one had seen the actual interview with Capt. Stephanus, who relayed what the Captain said, and then the interviewer asked, "what do you mean forced from behind?" He answered, "well, maybe a windshear?" We know how that fed the frenzy and where it led to afterwards (go back to the beginning of the paragraph *grin*).

Was this nosewheel scrape at the point of initial touchdown (i.e. approach end of 09) or was it achieved at the departure end?

This was taken from the overrun at runway 27... meaning, this was the marks towards the end of the fateful landing roll. It's the oleo digging into the asphalt.

PK-KAR

[theamrad]

That reminds me (yet again) of the ‘Bristol runway charade’ – journo comes here to PPrune and asks for ‘truth’, journo gets truth, journo’s organisation (later on same day) continues to sprout waffle, more annoyingly – continues to allow certain ‘director’ to waffle UNCHALLENGED about matter, public more confused and thinking that some airlines just get nervous when there’s a little rain – ‘truth’ or any notion of counter-arguement never mentioned!

I think the only ‘crime’ that Captain Stephanus may have committed might involve an element of not being media savvy. But on the other hand – if someone is deliberately careful – the accusation might be that they are being evasive – and then the charge of ‘cover-up’ gets thrown around. Even when in possession of all the details – SOME of the media still demonstrate an obsessive addiction for artistic interpretation, sometimes even deliberately!

the FDR however, can be subject to Boeing's interest to manipulate albeit unlikely.

At least in this case the whole issue doesn't even arise. I'm mindful of Colarado Springs - and the NTSB's approach to the integrity of data/component testing in conjunction with third parties, which was learned by experience - witnesses etc.

[Dagger Dirk]

Question on GPWS Flap warnings on Approach

Said earlier: "Re GPWS, if this aircraft was indeed not fitted with it, then that reflects (badly) on the regulatory authority."

.
Assuming that GPWS or EGPWS WAS fitted, then is any warning about landing without flap triggered by:
.
a. gear being down
.
b. a speed threshold (i.e. "below XXX knots")
.
c. radar altimeter
.
d. FLAP actual deflection
.
e. FLAP handle/lever position
.
f. some combination of the above
.
1. What can neutralize any such alert?
2. What height AGL does it cook off? What form does it take?
.
Anybody know?

[PK-KAR]

Although the answer seems obvious, is there anyone with authority (a LAME or someone who was involved in accident investigations) answer the now big question of:

"Is it possible for the 737 trailing edge flaps to retract (assuming it was deployed at flap30 for the landing) sometime during the landing roll or after the overrun (when the right wing ending up detached), without manipulation of the flap control lever?"

This is needed to pin down the possibilities of flap positions on landing, and allow us to focus on two possibilities.

PK-KAR

[fox niner]

Hi there theamrad,

If that is the reason for your copy/pasting, then that is fine. I was just wondering whether you thought that any amount of speculation is unwarranted. Because I think that some amount of speculation is allowed. But posters of speculation must be of the kind that know what they are talking about. (pilots/ATCO's/objective first hand observers) Otherwise any discussion om this forum becomes impossible.

Dagger Dirk:

The EGPWS system will activate for:

TOO LOW GEAR when it is not down, 3 greens below a certain radio height.

TOO LOW FLAPS when the actual flaps are not in a landing configuration (30 or 40 for the 737) below a certain radio height (about 250ft). It does not look at flap lever position. Suppose your flap lever is in 30 (landing flaps) but you get a flap load relief to flaps 25 because you come in too fast, you will get a TOO LOW FLAPS warning.

EGPWS does not look at speed. a high airspeed may result in a SINKRATE warning, but that is triggered by terrain closure rate.

TOO LOW GEAR and TOO LOW FLAPS warnings can be cancelled by pressing a button, by checklist, when deliberately making a partial gear landing (because you have a gear failure) of when making a partial/all flaps up landing. Also because of a failure that you might have. (hydraulics/engine failure/flap assymetry/etc)

Pressing the GROUND PROXIMITY FLAP OVERRIDE SWITCH without using a checklist, simply because you can not achieve a landing flap configuration in time, is the most outrageous form of cowboyism that I can think of. That would be deliberate endangerment/criminal offence. I think.....

But I don't think they did that though.

[fox niner]

PK-KAR,
the flaps are of course driven by the hydraulic system. But the actuators will keep the flaps at a certain setting, regardless of hydraulic pressure.
Suppose you are flying around with flaps 30. then suddenly, you get a hydraulic failure, pressure drops from 3000 psi to zero. this will have no effect on the flap setting. the loss of pressure does not cause the flaps to aerodynamically blow back to a lesser setting. and that is a good thing, because otherwise you would stall.
So automatic flap movement is only possible to a lesser flap setting when you have a flap load relief situation. And of course this was not the case after they had "landed", because the airspeed was well below flap load relief speed. And besides, flap load relief does not retract to flaps 15, as I'm sure you know.
So if the flaps were found to be at 15 after the crash, that means they were put there by the flap handle. perhaps they were never touched again and they landed that way, or maybe they were put in 15, from flaps 30,when rolling down the runway, by someone who wanted to go around while the other guy wanted to stop.

[theamrad]

Fox Niner -

copy/pasting

I agree completely with everything you say.

I know it’s kind of a mute point – I believe we would be dealing with GPWS and not the E- one. I know either way – the same functionality would exist in terms of flaps not at 30 etc.

Pressing the GROUND PROXIMITY FLAP OVERRIDE SWITCH without using a checklist

– I think that’s quite right – esp if done for “convenience” and not as part of pre-briefed procedure or non-normal reason. But then again – if ones intention was to do that “for convenience” in a too “hot and high” approach – your thinking would already be out of the box – and all it achieves is to silence the pending alarm – which you would anticipate to sound anyway for being “bold”.


PK-KAR,
I think I already know one of the scenarios you’re thinking of – just food for thought – it APPEARS to me that IF speed was so much out of the norm for ‘ordinary’ pax to notice/be alarmed - that we may be dealing with a speed above flap load relief activation – in which case we’d POSSIBLY be out of the flap 30 region anyway. At least, I think, in those circumstance, you’re looking at somewhere in region of 20 to 30 kts over?(don’t know Vref/weight). But as Fox Niner says – as the speed drops, at whatever stage, the load relief would cancel and drive down to whatever was selected. Again – just food for thought. Seems to me the GA scenario with one selecting GA flap is still a reasonable possibility at this stage.

[PK-KAR]

FoxNiner & Theamrad,
Yeah, we know those are the obvious answers, just wondering what else to say to someone who insists on hearing that from an accident investigator...

I told them the jackscrews keeps them in place, unless the screwthreads are eaten away, it would stay at the last deployed (or commanded if no mech problems) flap setting.

"yea yea we know PK, but we wanna hear an investigator say that."

PK-KAR

[lomapaseo]

FoxNiner & Theamrad,
Yeah, we know those are the obvious answers, just wondering what else to say to someone who insists on hearing that from an accident investigator...

I told them the jackscrews keeps them in place, unless the screwthreads are eaten away, it would stay at the last deployed (or commanded if no mech problems) flap setting.

"yea yea we know PK, but we wanna hear an investigator say that."

PK-KAR

I believe I already said that in post #112

[theamrad]

I believe I already said that in post #112

I don’t think that’s exactly the same point you were making – but then there’s no point in us arguing about it .

I think the emoticon’s brick wall says it all at this point. I don’t think anyone else is going to come along with any more knowledge here which would make that scenario more or less certain(from a systems standpoint). That seems the only reasonable thing you could say to anyone at the moment in trying to explain “staying at last deployed position”. Even if you get someone with the relevant knowledge - it may turn out to be a " if this happens and that happens and the other happens then it's just remotely possible that that could result........theoretically" - alternatively it's the waiting game for the actual investigators to say something.

The only other thing you can try is to post it as a separate question in another area of the forum and hope you get lucky with a techie/engineer/even investigator with B734 experience and/or the B734 maintenance manual turning up who has the authority to give a definitive answer once and for all.

[PK-KAR]

Now, this is a different answer to what was expected....
"the flap deployment can change in the above scenario, though unlikely."
He recommends looking at the flap lever...

That is very odd...

Lomapaseo,
Yes I was aware that it had been answered in #112 about the flap being preserved in the last deployed position (sod the slats!), but... the question was "would it be able to move at all after a loss of HYD and/or wing detachment"...
That was the key point to the question.

I think it has been answered, I'm just looking at various ways to explain it.

PK-KAR