Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash
I will usually be at about 5 minutes before landing that the flight crew finds out that they have some sort of flap problem.
The thing NOT to do when a flap problem arises, is to continue the approach. Just pick up a holding somewhere / get radar vectors and do the appropriate checklist.
When the failure is more or less sorted out, the crew can then assess what the next step will be. do they need a long runway? maybe. depends. for some partial flap landings (flaps 15 for example) 7800 feet of runway could be sufficient. depends....on many factors.
And if the 7800 feet at yogya happens to be sufficient, there is no need to call the fire brigade. the result will be a normal landing from the passengers' point of view. Slightly higher approach speed, 160 in stead of 140. Touchdown-reverse-braking-exit via a taxiway at the end of the runway.
But Frankly, I don't think there was anything wrong with the airplane. After reading all the info, I still have the feeling this was a rushed approach.
The thing NOT to do when a flap problem arises, is to continue the approach. Just pick up a holding somewhere / get radar vectors and do the appropriate checklist.
When the failure is more or less sorted out, the crew can then assess what the next step will be. do they need a long runway? maybe. depends. for some partial flap landings (flaps 15 for example) 7800 feet of runway could be sufficient. depends....on many factors.
And if the 7800 feet at yogya happens to be sufficient, there is no need to call the fire brigade. the result will be a normal landing from the passengers' point of view. Slightly higher approach speed, 160 in stead of 140. Touchdown-reverse-braking-exit via a taxiway at the end of the runway.
But Frankly, I don't think there was anything wrong with the airplane. After reading all the info, I still have the feeling this was a rushed approach.
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Interesting recap of accident...worthy of your attention:
Welcome to The Sydney Morning Herald.
March 10, 2007
Life or death was dictated by where you sat, writes Mark Forbes in Yogyakarta.
Latest related coverage
* Pilot blames downdraft for crash
* The plane's crashing, Seven cameraman screams
* 'It was going too fast'
* Five Australians feared dead after crash
* Plane was travelling too fast: airforce commander
GARUDA airlines flight GA200 was full, 140 passengers and crew aboard. Left behind in Jakarta were several journalists unable to squeeze onto the 6am flight to cover Wednesday's trip to Yogyakarta by the Foreign Affairs Minister, Alexander Downer.
On board were two journalists who had grabbed the last tickets held by the Australian embassy, the Financial Review's Morgan Mellish and the Herald's Cynthia Banham. The embassy's most senior aid, information and police officers were sitting alongside them in business class.
Back in economy were more junior officials and two Indonesians working for Channel Seven, cameraman Wayan Sukarda and assistant Ardi Rahman. As many cameramen do, Sukarda cradled his camera during the flight.
The hour-long trip passed smoothly, but approaching Yogyakarta many passengers - all too aware of recent Indonesian crashes - became alarmed.
Murni Indarti, a university professor, said all appeared fine until minutes before landing.
"We felt something was wrong. The plane didn't seem to fly properly. We could see the land already. I joked with the passenger next to me that maybe this is what they call a hard landing. Then suddenly the situation was out of control."
Two RAAF officers, Michael Hatton and Kyle Quinlan, were exchanging nervous glances. Quinlan thought the aircraft was coming down "too fast, too hard", watching trees and buildings flash by his window.
"I've taken my earphones out and looked over at Mick. I said to him, 'this is coming in way too fast'," Quinlan said. "He nodded at me, and the plane started bouncing. It was a pretty rough ride. I grabbed my legs and braced for the impact."
In the cockpit, Captain Marwoto Komar and co-pilot Gagam Rohman were wrestling to control the Boeing 737-400. They could not fully extend the wing flaps and were rapidly approaching the airport, they have told Garuda officials, including the president of its pilots association, Captain Stephanus.
Just 300 metres above the runway "the captain felt a downdraft and the aircraft sinks so rapidly", Captain Stephanus said. "They just felt the aircraft hit the runway and bounce and then because the speed is very fast the aircraft overran. Then the engines hit the ground."
Normally pilots would try to "go around" and attempt another landing, but Captain Komar felt he had to complete the touchdown. Investigators believe the nose wheel snapped on the first impact
But, already more than a third of the way down the runway, the speeding jet was out of control.
It crashed through the airport fencing, then across a road. Landing gear and engines were ripped off. With a fuel tank ruptured, explosions began and flames soon followed.
Cockpit indicators did not warn of a fire, but as the crumpled jet slid to a halt Captain Komar saw smoke outside the window and ordered stewards to open the emergency exits and evacuate the passengers. The plane filled with smoke, fire and screams.
"People panicked because we saw fire," Professor Indarti said. "Things were just chaotic. People tried to get out of the plane, everybody was helping themselves."
Raham's left leg was trapped beneath his seat. Stumbling into the aisle, he fell and other passengers "were stomping on me". They broke his ribs, but Raham heard a steward calling people to the exit, struggled up and jumped. Then he ran: "All I could think of was to get as far as possible from the plane."
Sukardo said "we hit very hard", slapping his hand. "People say 'Oh my God, oh my God'. There was smoke and fire.
"All the luggage just fell down. Many people were crying, hysterical. The cabin staff opened the back door and directed passengers out. It was too, too quick. Very, very quick."
Sukardo grabbed his camera and headed for the rear exit. Jumping into the rice paddy, his boots lodged in the thick mud. He pulled his feet free and ran barefoot from the aircraft as aviation fuel sparked a series of explosions.
"I jump and run. I felt a big blast," he said. "I got away from the aircraft and I film. I am a cameraman; everywhere I go the camera is with me."
Turning his camera towards the wreckage, he captured Captain Komar jumping to safety from the cockpit as passengers struggled from the exits. "I don't know why the pilot not help the passengers," he said.
Co-pilot Rohman had turned back towards the cabin and saw a large elderly woman trapped in her seat with the flames approaching. He could not lift her and frantically beckoned through the gaping hole in the aircraft's side to three Indonesian Air Force officers outside. Together they pulled her to safety.
Quinlan and Hatton were sitting in economy's emergency row above the wing, but the nearest exit to their right was covered in flames. Hatton had been nearly knocked out by a locker, so Quinlan grabbed him and headed for the exit opposite.
"We were probably among the first five people who got out, and I looked back at the body - it was engulfed in flames, and I knew if there was an explosion and we stayed there, we wouldn't be alive," Quinlan said.
"Everything pretty much from two seats in front of us was gone. I can't imagine how anyone survived in the front of the plane."
Business class took the hardest impact. The cockpit was almost severed from the fuselage.
A dazed Cynthia Banham looked down and saw flames around her legs. Beside her people were "burning alive", still strapped in their seats, she said.
Banham, who had embarked on a fitness campaign to take part in marathons over the last few years, somehow pulled herself from her seat and dragged her badly burnt body towards an exit.
She tumbled from the aircraft, then rolled herself across the rice paddy before being rescued by onlookers. By then flames had engulfed the front of the aircraft and those within. Several died still trapped in their seats.
The passengers on either side of Banham, Mellish and the embassy spokeswoman Liz O'Neill, never emerged.
Twenty-one people on the flight perished, and Indonesian officials confirmed yesterday that they had identified all five Australian victims.
Amid claims that pilot error caused the crash, Captain Komar and the rest of the crew have been imprisoned by police at the local air force hospital.
He was suicidal, Captain Stephanus said. "We are very afraid he could kill himself.
"The captain is very depressed; he is feeling very, very guilty."
Describing Wednesday's crash as a "freak incident", Captain Stephanus urged the public not to pre-judge the pilot, pointing towards the claims of a downdraft and the possible flap malfunction. There have also been questions asked about the condition of the 15-year-old plane.
Some Indonesian investigators are convinced Komar is at fault for coming in too fast. Australian and Indonesian police have joined the investigation, which has prompted a behind-the-scenes turf war over jurisdiction.
Air safety officials believe they should be conducting the inquiry and are angered by the description of it by the Australian Federal Police Commissioner, Mick Keelty, as a "police investigation", and revealing the pilot's claims of a downdraft forcing the accident.
GA200's data recorders have arrived in Canberra, where the details of the final 30 minutes of the flight are being extracted. Investigators on the ground continue to comb the blackened wreckage, attempting to piece together the causes of the crash.
Friends and families of the victims remain in shock, attempting to piece together their lives.
with Karuni Rompies and Stuart Wilkinson
Welcome to The Sydney Morning Herald.
March 10, 2007
Life or death was dictated by where you sat, writes Mark Forbes in Yogyakarta.
Latest related coverage
* Pilot blames downdraft for crash
* The plane's crashing, Seven cameraman screams
* 'It was going too fast'
* Five Australians feared dead after crash
* Plane was travelling too fast: airforce commander
GARUDA airlines flight GA200 was full, 140 passengers and crew aboard. Left behind in Jakarta were several journalists unable to squeeze onto the 6am flight to cover Wednesday's trip to Yogyakarta by the Foreign Affairs Minister, Alexander Downer.
On board were two journalists who had grabbed the last tickets held by the Australian embassy, the Financial Review's Morgan Mellish and the Herald's Cynthia Banham. The embassy's most senior aid, information and police officers were sitting alongside them in business class.
Back in economy were more junior officials and two Indonesians working for Channel Seven, cameraman Wayan Sukarda and assistant Ardi Rahman. As many cameramen do, Sukarda cradled his camera during the flight.
The hour-long trip passed smoothly, but approaching Yogyakarta many passengers - all too aware of recent Indonesian crashes - became alarmed.
Murni Indarti, a university professor, said all appeared fine until minutes before landing.
"We felt something was wrong. The plane didn't seem to fly properly. We could see the land already. I joked with the passenger next to me that maybe this is what they call a hard landing. Then suddenly the situation was out of control."
Two RAAF officers, Michael Hatton and Kyle Quinlan, were exchanging nervous glances. Quinlan thought the aircraft was coming down "too fast, too hard", watching trees and buildings flash by his window.
"I've taken my earphones out and looked over at Mick. I said to him, 'this is coming in way too fast'," Quinlan said. "He nodded at me, and the plane started bouncing. It was a pretty rough ride. I grabbed my legs and braced for the impact."
In the cockpit, Captain Marwoto Komar and co-pilot Gagam Rohman were wrestling to control the Boeing 737-400. They could not fully extend the wing flaps and were rapidly approaching the airport, they have told Garuda officials, including the president of its pilots association, Captain Stephanus.
Just 300 metres above the runway "the captain felt a downdraft and the aircraft sinks so rapidly", Captain Stephanus said. "They just felt the aircraft hit the runway and bounce and then because the speed is very fast the aircraft overran. Then the engines hit the ground."
Normally pilots would try to "go around" and attempt another landing, but Captain Komar felt he had to complete the touchdown. Investigators believe the nose wheel snapped on the first impact
But, already more than a third of the way down the runway, the speeding jet was out of control.
It crashed through the airport fencing, then across a road. Landing gear and engines were ripped off. With a fuel tank ruptured, explosions began and flames soon followed.
Cockpit indicators did not warn of a fire, but as the crumpled jet slid to a halt Captain Komar saw smoke outside the window and ordered stewards to open the emergency exits and evacuate the passengers. The plane filled with smoke, fire and screams.
"People panicked because we saw fire," Professor Indarti said. "Things were just chaotic. People tried to get out of the plane, everybody was helping themselves."
Raham's left leg was trapped beneath his seat. Stumbling into the aisle, he fell and other passengers "were stomping on me". They broke his ribs, but Raham heard a steward calling people to the exit, struggled up and jumped. Then he ran: "All I could think of was to get as far as possible from the plane."
Sukardo said "we hit very hard", slapping his hand. "People say 'Oh my God, oh my God'. There was smoke and fire.
"All the luggage just fell down. Many people were crying, hysterical. The cabin staff opened the back door and directed passengers out. It was too, too quick. Very, very quick."
Sukardo grabbed his camera and headed for the rear exit. Jumping into the rice paddy, his boots lodged in the thick mud. He pulled his feet free and ran barefoot from the aircraft as aviation fuel sparked a series of explosions.
"I jump and run. I felt a big blast," he said. "I got away from the aircraft and I film. I am a cameraman; everywhere I go the camera is with me."
Turning his camera towards the wreckage, he captured Captain Komar jumping to safety from the cockpit as passengers struggled from the exits. "I don't know why the pilot not help the passengers," he said.
Co-pilot Rohman had turned back towards the cabin and saw a large elderly woman trapped in her seat with the flames approaching. He could not lift her and frantically beckoned through the gaping hole in the aircraft's side to three Indonesian Air Force officers outside. Together they pulled her to safety.
Quinlan and Hatton were sitting in economy's emergency row above the wing, but the nearest exit to their right was covered in flames. Hatton had been nearly knocked out by a locker, so Quinlan grabbed him and headed for the exit opposite.
"We were probably among the first five people who got out, and I looked back at the body - it was engulfed in flames, and I knew if there was an explosion and we stayed there, we wouldn't be alive," Quinlan said.
"Everything pretty much from two seats in front of us was gone. I can't imagine how anyone survived in the front of the plane."
Business class took the hardest impact. The cockpit was almost severed from the fuselage.
A dazed Cynthia Banham looked down and saw flames around her legs. Beside her people were "burning alive", still strapped in their seats, she said.
Banham, who had embarked on a fitness campaign to take part in marathons over the last few years, somehow pulled herself from her seat and dragged her badly burnt body towards an exit.
She tumbled from the aircraft, then rolled herself across the rice paddy before being rescued by onlookers. By then flames had engulfed the front of the aircraft and those within. Several died still trapped in their seats.
The passengers on either side of Banham, Mellish and the embassy spokeswoman Liz O'Neill, never emerged.
Twenty-one people on the flight perished, and Indonesian officials confirmed yesterday that they had identified all five Australian victims.
Amid claims that pilot error caused the crash, Captain Komar and the rest of the crew have been imprisoned by police at the local air force hospital.
He was suicidal, Captain Stephanus said. "We are very afraid he could kill himself.
"The captain is very depressed; he is feeling very, very guilty."
Describing Wednesday's crash as a "freak incident", Captain Stephanus urged the public not to pre-judge the pilot, pointing towards the claims of a downdraft and the possible flap malfunction. There have also been questions asked about the condition of the 15-year-old plane.
Some Indonesian investigators are convinced Komar is at fault for coming in too fast. Australian and Indonesian police have joined the investigation, which has prompted a behind-the-scenes turf war over jurisdiction.
Air safety officials believe they should be conducting the inquiry and are angered by the description of it by the Australian Federal Police Commissioner, Mick Keelty, as a "police investigation", and revealing the pilot's claims of a downdraft forcing the accident.
GA200's data recorders have arrived in Canberra, where the details of the final 30 minutes of the flight are being extracted. Investigators on the ground continue to comb the blackened wreckage, attempting to piece together the causes of the crash.
Friends and families of the victims remain in shock, attempting to piece together their lives.
with Karuni Rompies and Stuart Wilkinson
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Quotes
Sinbad1;
Quote:
I think the Cabin Crew did a magnificent job under the circumstances, but I cannot see how the pilot would have been doing this, especially when the cockpit section ended up separating from the rest of the fuselage.
Capn Bloggs:
Quote;
It is quite conceivable, considering that both pilots survived, that they got out of the cockpit (if they were still in it) and went back to help the CC with the evacuation. In fact, it's probably in their SOPs to do so.
bomarc:
Quote:
Turning his camera towards the wreckage, he captured Captain Komar jumping to safety from the cockpit as passengers struggled from the exits. "I don't know why the pilot not help the passengers," he said.
Business class took the hardest impact. The cockpit was almost severed from the fuselage.
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Crash probe rules out downdraft
This is from the Australian.com.au
- [*]
Crash scene head, Marjono Siswo Suwarno, said early investigations had revealed weather conditions were fine at the moment flight 200 from Jakarta crash-landed just before 7am on Wednesday. At Yogyakarta's airport, where Australian and Indonesian police and other investigators continue the painstaking task of piecing together the final moments of flight 200, investigations chief Mr Marjono dismissed suggestions that a down-draft had forced the jet into an uncontrollable descent.
"There was no down-draft at the point of landing," said Mr Marjono, from Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Bureau.
"Data from the meteorological board shows that wind speed was less than five knots, so conditions were good. There was no mayday call from the plane."
In fact, Mr Marjono added, "the final words from the control tower were 'clear to land"'.
Investigators continue to interview the two pilots, Marwoto Komar and Gagam Rahman, but have moved them from the secure location where they were being held after the crash. The two men had been under police guard at a military hospital in Yogyakarta. Although Captain Marwoto hasbeen reported as being suicidal, hospital sources denied this.
Mr Marjono said he expected preliminary information from the plane's "black box" flight recorder and cockpit voice recorder to be made available some time next week, after investigators from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau sent the devices to Canberra on Thursday night.
"The data will be retrieved there, but analysis will be carried out here," he said.
"The ATSB is not leading the investigation, just helping us."
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I'm in basic agreement with fox niner. The story of the pilots is not adding up (for me anyway). I'm skeptical of the possibility that this accident was caused by both a flap extension problem and a large downdraft on final approach.
First, fox niner says it correctly. If there was a flap extension problem on approach, I'm nearly certain that the approach would have been abandoned, and the pilots would have a spent a few minutes assessing and planning for a high speed landing, including runway selection, etc. A flap extension failure or anomaly is not something you can assess and plan around in the very brief time of a final approach.
Second, we have our first report that there was in fact no downdraft over the runway at the time of the accident, from the crash investigators no less.
The FDR (and CVR) will tell the tale.
Forgive me, but I'm very skeptical of the stories being told by these pilots.
(edited to fix typos)
First, fox niner says it correctly. If there was a flap extension problem on approach, I'm nearly certain that the approach would have been abandoned, and the pilots would have a spent a few minutes assessing and planning for a high speed landing, including runway selection, etc. A flap extension failure or anomaly is not something you can assess and plan around in the very brief time of a final approach.
Second, we have our first report that there was in fact no downdraft over the runway at the time of the accident, from the crash investigators no less.
The FDR (and CVR) will tell the tale.
Forgive me, but I'm very skeptical of the stories being told by these pilots.
(edited to fix typos)
Last edited by Flight Safety; 11th Mar 2007 at 15:48.
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Flightsafety,
I got details from 5 737 classics (or former) pilots that there could be a possibility that they themselves would not abandon the approach.
As to the stories of the Captain of the flight, I must remind people of the interview that night I saw on TV...
The story about the downdraft developed out of this interview within 24hrs! (and all those "so-called instant experts" wasted TV airtime and newspaper pages on it)... WX at the time was OFFICIALLY:
2330UTC: 050/07 5000 HZ SCT018 24/23 1003.6
0000UTC: 050/05 6000 HZ SCT018 24/23 1003.6
However, got the WX details and ATC transcripts today... and where the 2 touchdowns were made. Added with elevator up, flap15, and the damage on the air force academy road the plane jumped over (more damage being on the embankment on the runway side and not on the opposite side and the central divider undamaged), and where the landing gears and engines were found, and where the right wing outboard of the engine ended up... Added with the rubber deposited and the nose gear leg digging tracks on the runway, and bounce at 685m beyond thr, 2nd wheel contact was at 885m...
leads me to believe that:
1. It was a flap30 landing, visual with a/t on.
2. High flare (above 27' AGL), AT didn't auto D/C, speed drop, A/T kicks in, long flare.
3. Belly flop it to the runway and a/t d/c
4. Reversers and spoilers deployed... max man brakes applied.
5. At some stage someone decided to go around while the other was still trying to stop the aircraft on the brakes.
6. floated across the road.
7. stalled
8. fatal impact, wing flew over to the other side, fuel dispersed catches fire.
the rest U know.
Without CVR and FDR, this is just a theory... until the CVR is decoded, I have to settle with only guessing what happened in the cockpit.
Recompiling the findings *yet again!*
PK-KAR
I got details from 5 737 classics (or former) pilots that there could be a possibility that they themselves would not abandon the approach.
As to the stories of the Captain of the flight, I must remind people of the interview that night I saw on TV...
The initial interview with the chief of garuda's pilot association mentioned:
1. when he flared, he felt like something pushed his aircraft from behind (not push it down), MAYBE a downdraft.
2. there was some problems with the aircraft but that was resolved prior to the final approach.
3. he did not know why he was so fast that he could not stop.
4. he is in a state of depression and emotional stress.
1. when he flared, he felt like something pushed his aircraft from behind (not push it down), MAYBE a downdraft.
2. there was some problems with the aircraft but that was resolved prior to the final approach.
3. he did not know why he was so fast that he could not stop.
4. he is in a state of depression and emotional stress.
2330UTC: 050/07 5000 HZ SCT018 24/23 1003.6
0000UTC: 050/05 6000 HZ SCT018 24/23 1003.6
However, got the WX details and ATC transcripts today... and where the 2 touchdowns were made. Added with elevator up, flap15, and the damage on the air force academy road the plane jumped over (more damage being on the embankment on the runway side and not on the opposite side and the central divider undamaged), and where the landing gears and engines were found, and where the right wing outboard of the engine ended up... Added with the rubber deposited and the nose gear leg digging tracks on the runway, and bounce at 685m beyond thr, 2nd wheel contact was at 885m...
leads me to believe that:
1. It was a flap30 landing, visual with a/t on.
2. High flare (above 27' AGL), AT didn't auto D/C, speed drop, A/T kicks in, long flare.
3. Belly flop it to the runway and a/t d/c
4. Reversers and spoilers deployed... max man brakes applied.
5. At some stage someone decided to go around while the other was still trying to stop the aircraft on the brakes.
6. floated across the road.
7. stalled
8. fatal impact, wing flew over to the other side, fuel dispersed catches fire.
the rest U know.
Without CVR and FDR, this is just a theory... until the CVR is decoded, I have to settle with only guessing what happened in the cockpit.
Recompiling the findings *yet again!*
PK-KAR
Hi ther PK-KAR, you wrote:
and
So do you think they landed with flaps 15 or 30?
By the way, captain's weather at time of accident........
Added with elevator up, flap15, and the damage on the air force academy road
1. It was a flap30 landing, visual with a/t on.
By the way, captain's weather at time of accident........
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Did someone mention weather?
Just received today: Weather report from the airport.
Time of accident was 23:57
Just received today: Weather report from the airport.
WARJ 2200UTC 080/06 5000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1003.6
WARJ 2230UTC 060/06 5000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1003.6
WARJ 2300UTC 050/06 5000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1004
WARJ 2330UTC 050/07 5000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1003.6
WARJ 0000UTC 050/05 6000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1003.6
WARJ 0030UTC 060/10 6000HZ FEW017 26/23 Q1004
WARJ 2230UTC 060/06 5000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1003.6
WARJ 2300UTC 050/06 5000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1004
WARJ 2330UTC 050/07 5000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1003.6
WARJ 0000UTC 050/05 6000HZ SCT018 24/23 Q1003.6
WARJ 0030UTC 060/10 6000HZ FEW017 26/23 Q1004
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In more than 10 years of flying into Yogyakarta's airport since my first arrival there as a student in 1994, I have never felt comfortable hitting the heavily pitted and too-short runway. I have regularly seen passenger jets run off the end of it, becoming marooned in the rice fields that surround the airfield
Another previously mentioned piece of "inspired" WAFFLE from the same individual. I sure would LOVE to meet Mr. Stephen Fitzpatrick in person! - who, I presume, is working off his own copy of the -400 AFM and also the relevant SOPS. Although, at least, this time the personal opinion seems to be a bit less prevalent.
------------
this could be to blame for the whole thing.
Now I wonder where that post suggesting this was caused by Indonesians being too lazy to maintain their aircraft went to??????? Anyone care to comment?????? The one concerned knows exactly what I refer to. If you want to continue to post completely unfounded waffle - maybe I'll have to quote exactly what you said previously(now missing) and comment further on it what say you?
As someone else already said:
Gentlemen, pleeeease! There are some of us who come to the PPruNe to see what was behind the last mishap in order to learn from other people's mistakes and to avoid becoming next hot PPruNe thread. I'd really appreciate if we could just cut down the noise. If you have something meaningful to contribute (kudos to PK-KAR ) please do so.
------------
Sinbad1, I know it's difficult, because I'm really tempted to get involved too - but I suppose we just have to try our best to rise above acknowledging the wildest of speculative opinion/comment
------------
KATLPAX,
If the crew had some sort of flap issue, however minor during approach, would they not have informed someone as to the potential problem and request to have emergency crews standing by?
----------------
PK-KAR,
Personally, I think I was at the stage where I was going to refrain from commenting on the downdraft issue anymore Id already seen DIFFERENT reports attributable to the captain about his claim. One indicating the occurrence at 1,000 AGL and a separate one suggesting it happened much nearer to the ground. Whether its the fault of the media or not ..? Now to consider it happening at 1,000 and causing an influence all the way down (and affecting the actual landing) AND surface wind at the time reported as <10 kts was always going to seem tenuous and subject to some skepticism. In any case seems like an official knockdown on that issue now from the investigators and the METAR's themselves.
At first glance your new information seems to suggest some earlier theories voiced here are mainly redundant but on looking a little longer Im a little more confused now than before. Seems like your suggested cause is now possibly bringing in a CRM conflict as well whether deliberate on the part of the crew, or 'forced' on them by a rapidly deteriorating situation.
If you are correct about flaps 30 landing were still at a loss as to why the approach was apparently/reportedly so fast. Its a pity but it seems none of the witnesses onboard have said anything about flap position when landing (that I know of).
High flare (above 27' AGL), AT didn't auto D/C, speed drop, A/T kicks in, long flare.
bounce at 685m beyond thr, 2nd wheel contact was at 885m
As for all our discussions concerning flaps hopefully the FDR and CVR data will be known shortly whether released or leaked. I just hope we can get an idea of the recorded information and not some dunderheads (or indeed speculative nervous flyers!) interpretation of it!
Thanks for the continued insight much appreciated here as even the lower (more speculative) echelons of the media on this side of the world have long since moved on to other stories.
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I know that Garuda have been making efforts to improve the safety culture in the airline but it is obviously taking a long time to alter the flightcrew mindset. They have for instance emphasised that pressing on with approaches during thunderstorms is a bad idea. As a result there are far more diversions these days and far fewer Garuda a/c parked on the grass (shame some of the other operators don't take this on board).
It seems though that the advice has not been interpreted as applying to other aspects of the operation. I was a passenger on a Garuda flight from Solo to Jakarta last year. During the taxi out and take off I was reading my book and not paying too much attention to the events going on around me (apart from the safety brief of course). When we landed at Jakarta two engineers who were also passengers on board asked me what I thought of the extraordinary take off. Apparently at the start of the T/O the flaps were still up and were running out to the T/O setting all the way until rotate.
I have to say that since we survived I am glad I hadn't noticed. If I had known I would have felt compelled to do something about it but I am not sure what effect a Bule Gila (mad white man) running down the aisle shouting stop would have had.
It seems though that the advice has not been interpreted as applying to other aspects of the operation. I was a passenger on a Garuda flight from Solo to Jakarta last year. During the taxi out and take off I was reading my book and not paying too much attention to the events going on around me (apart from the safety brief of course). When we landed at Jakarta two engineers who were also passengers on board asked me what I thought of the extraordinary take off. Apparently at the start of the T/O the flaps were still up and were running out to the T/O setting all the way until rotate.
I have to say that since we survived I am glad I hadn't noticed. If I had known I would have felt compelled to do something about it but I am not sure what effect a Bule Gila (mad white man) running down the aisle shouting stop would have had.
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Tightcircuit,
I have to admit to a SLIGHTLY similar experience on a flight from Jakarta to Yogya about 3 years ago, but not as serious. Maybe it was on the borderline but at the time, it seemed to me at least, the engines were spooled up just a little too soon while early in the lining up turn. Quite a lot of acceleration with more than just a few degrees turn left to make!
I just wonder, in your case, was the flap handle moved before or AFTER the T/O configuration horn was wailing?
I have to admit to a SLIGHTLY similar experience on a flight from Jakarta to Yogya about 3 years ago, but not as serious. Maybe it was on the borderline but at the time, it seemed to me at least, the engines were spooled up just a little too soon while early in the lining up turn. Quite a lot of acceleration with more than just a few degrees turn left to make!
I just wonder, in your case, was the flap handle moved before or AFTER the T/O configuration horn was wailing?
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Another passenger account
AFTER a last glance from the paddy field to the blazing jet that had carried him to Yogyakarta on Wednesday, Alessandro Bertellotti caught a cab into town, bought clothes to replace those splattered with blood, and decided to use his return ticket to Jakarta that afternoon.
He believed he could never face flying again if he delayed.
Mr Bertellotti flew home to St Kilda, Melbourne, on Friday, unaware he was the mysterious 10th Australian who disappeared from the crash site, sparking confusion and consternation.
Speaking to the Herald yesterday, Mr Bertellotti's lucid memories of the final minutes of the flight may cast a clearer picture on the causes of the crash. A veteran air traveller who takes more than 100 flights a year, Mr Bertellotti was four seats back from the wing. He said he was startled that the Boeing 737-400 was coming into Yogyakarta too fast. When he checked the wing, he could clearly see the air brakes above the wing raised, but it appeared the main flaps below were not extended.
Normal procedures had not been followed. The announcement to prepare for landing was issued about 10 seconds before the aircraft hit the tarmac, and some of the crew were not in their seats.
Mr Bertellotti felt the aircraft dip suddenly before landing, but he believes the speed of the approach made a crash inevitable.
The Herald revealed on Friday that the Garuda pilot had said a
down draught slammed the aircraft into the runway and that the wing flaps were malfunctioning. "We were travelling at an incredible speed," Mr Bertellotti said. "Everyone was screaming before the landing because we knew it was too fast.
"I look outside, the air brakes were up, but I saw the airport building passing by in a flash. My impression was the flaps weren't down
"There was no wind at all before the crash. I did feel it dip for just a moment. We were about 50 metres above the ground. There was this fast movement, but already we were approaching too fast. We were already screaming.
"I don't understand why they didn't touch and go [take off and try to land again]. There was a huge bang and that was it."
Two stewards were still running towards their seats. The impact threw them into the air.
"I am very lucky. I am still alive. I was in seat 21C on the right side and the fire started on the left side four seats in front
"Everything was incredibly dark, but we saw the light from the rear door and in eight steps I was out. There were six or seven people in front of me.
"The hostess was just standing there, showing us the door with her hand and kept silent; it was very strange. Outside there was an incredible silence. No one was speaking. It's incredible the plane didn't catch fire when we crashed - [the fire] only got big after two minutes. In those two minutes most people got out.
"There were a few ambulances but I said I didn't need them because nothing was broken and to use them for the people who were hurt."
Mr Bertellotti, a journalist with Italian TV who covers the region from Melbourne, then went into Yogyakarta to meet a cultural official at a conference he was meant to report on.
The official helped him buy clothes and glasses. Mr Bertellotti said he then reported back to the airport, but the message appears not to have reached Australian officials.
Mr Bertellotti holds dual Australian and Italian citizenship, which may have added to confusion over his whereabouts. He was listed as an Italian survivor when Australian officials were trying to find the 10th Australian they knew was on the flight.
"I went back to the airport later to tell them I was fine. I got a call from Canberra that afternoon. I told them I was fine and not to worry about me but look after the others who were hurt."
He decided to leave immediately, stopping in Jakarta before catching the first flight he could to Melbourne. "I wanted to leave this day behind, and the way was to go back with the ticket I had with Garuda. I think if I don't I won't fly any more." Boarding the flight he was "fighting the shadow of the memory".
"I'd like to leave this experience behind. This will live with me forever, but life goes on."
He believed he could never face flying again if he delayed.
Mr Bertellotti flew home to St Kilda, Melbourne, on Friday, unaware he was the mysterious 10th Australian who disappeared from the crash site, sparking confusion and consternation.
Speaking to the Herald yesterday, Mr Bertellotti's lucid memories of the final minutes of the flight may cast a clearer picture on the causes of the crash. A veteran air traveller who takes more than 100 flights a year, Mr Bertellotti was four seats back from the wing. He said he was startled that the Boeing 737-400 was coming into Yogyakarta too fast. When he checked the wing, he could clearly see the air brakes above the wing raised, but it appeared the main flaps below were not extended.
Normal procedures had not been followed. The announcement to prepare for landing was issued about 10 seconds before the aircraft hit the tarmac, and some of the crew were not in their seats.
Mr Bertellotti felt the aircraft dip suddenly before landing, but he believes the speed of the approach made a crash inevitable.
The Herald revealed on Friday that the Garuda pilot had said a
down draught slammed the aircraft into the runway and that the wing flaps were malfunctioning. "We were travelling at an incredible speed," Mr Bertellotti said. "Everyone was screaming before the landing because we knew it was too fast.
"I look outside, the air brakes were up, but I saw the airport building passing by in a flash. My impression was the flaps weren't down
"There was no wind at all before the crash. I did feel it dip for just a moment. We were about 50 metres above the ground. There was this fast movement, but already we were approaching too fast. We were already screaming.
"I don't understand why they didn't touch and go [take off and try to land again]. There was a huge bang and that was it."
Two stewards were still running towards their seats. The impact threw them into the air.
"I am very lucky. I am still alive. I was in seat 21C on the right side and the fire started on the left side four seats in front
"Everything was incredibly dark, but we saw the light from the rear door and in eight steps I was out. There were six or seven people in front of me.
"The hostess was just standing there, showing us the door with her hand and kept silent; it was very strange. Outside there was an incredible silence. No one was speaking. It's incredible the plane didn't catch fire when we crashed - [the fire] only got big after two minutes. In those two minutes most people got out.
"There were a few ambulances but I said I didn't need them because nothing was broken and to use them for the people who were hurt."
Mr Bertellotti, a journalist with Italian TV who covers the region from Melbourne, then went into Yogyakarta to meet a cultural official at a conference he was meant to report on.
The official helped him buy clothes and glasses. Mr Bertellotti said he then reported back to the airport, but the message appears not to have reached Australian officials.
Mr Bertellotti holds dual Australian and Italian citizenship, which may have added to confusion over his whereabouts. He was listed as an Italian survivor when Australian officials were trying to find the 10th Australian they knew was on the flight.
"I went back to the airport later to tell them I was fine. I got a call from Canberra that afternoon. I told them I was fine and not to worry about me but look after the others who were hurt."
He decided to leave immediately, stopping in Jakarta before catching the first flight he could to Melbourne. "I wanted to leave this day behind, and the way was to go back with the ticket I had with Garuda. I think if I don't I won't fly any more." Boarding the flight he was "fighting the shadow of the memory".
"I'd like to leave this experience behind. This will live with me forever, but life goes on."
Last edited by Miraz; 11th Mar 2007 at 21:19.
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One indicating the occurrence at 1,000 AGL and a separate one suggesting it happened much nearer to the ground.
23:55
T GIA200: Adi Tower, Indonesia 200, selamat pagi
T TOWER: Selamat Pagi Indonesia 200, surface wind calm, continue approach runway 09, Report final, traffic one Bravo on line up position.
T GIA200: Continue approach, check final, copy traffic, Indonesia 200
23:56
T TOWER: Indonesia 200, Wind Calm, check gear down and lock, cleared to land.
T GIA200: Cleared to land, Indonesia 200
No other transmissions between GA200 and the Tower. (the gear down and lock is likely as a habit of JOG ATC, since they're military and serve a lot of military student pilots based at the airport).
Accident happened at 23:57:50...
At 23:56, something happened...
T TOWER: Bravo errr... Indonesia 406... (radio interference/scramble/static)... s... s...
and
T TOWER: Indonesia ahhhh, J-406, contact Jogja Approach Sir
This indicates a possibility the tower was startled at seeing the GA, while the J-406 traffic was already airborne.
If you are correct about flaps 30 landing were still at a loss as to why the approach was apparently/reportedly so fast. Its a pity but it seems none of the witnesses onboard have said anything about flap position when landing (that I know of).
When we landed at Jakarta two engineers who were also passengers on board asked me what I thought of the extraordinary take off. Apparently at the start of the T/O the flaps were still up and were running out to the T/O setting all the way until rotate.
the engines were spooled up just a little too soon while early in the lining up turn. Quite a lot of acceleration with more than just a few degrees turn left to make!
Cheers,
PK-KAR
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Miraz,
Seat 21C on the RIGHT side and fire started on the LEFT side?
And outside no one was speaking?
Has he seen the video?
Can this guy tell what's left and what's right?
21C is left side of the aisle, and the fire started from the right side.
Furthermore, if the cabin is not ready for landing, the aircraft would not land unless it is an emergency, and the announcement would be different. A normal landing would require the FA1 or one that has been told by the FA1, to tell the captain that the cabin is ready... And cabin ready for landing is part of the checklist... so this is only possible if there is an emergency or a severe omission of the landing checklist.
PK-KAR
Seat 21C on the RIGHT side and fire started on the LEFT side?
And outside no one was speaking?
Has he seen the video?
Can this guy tell what's left and what's right?
21C is left side of the aisle, and the fire started from the right side.
Furthermore, if the cabin is not ready for landing, the aircraft would not land unless it is an emergency, and the announcement would be different. A normal landing would require the FA1 or one that has been told by the FA1, to tell the captain that the cabin is ready... And cabin ready for landing is part of the checklist... so this is only possible if there is an emergency or a severe omission of the landing checklist.
PK-KAR
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Just quoting local media - suspect the usual amount of journalistic license needs to be applied when reading it.
I have had the misfortune to be a pax in two runway overshoot incidents, thankfully neither of which involved any fatalities - the second of which involved an aircraft fire and a full on emergency evacuation.
I know that I was sufficiently together during the evacuation that I helped a number of panicing passengers, undo seat belts, get out of their seats and pushed them towards the exits before getting out myself.
As has had been said by previous posters - take any pax accounts with a big pinch of salt. I know that some aspects of my own memories turned out to be inaccurate.
I have had the misfortune to be a pax in two runway overshoot incidents, thankfully neither of which involved any fatalities - the second of which involved an aircraft fire and a full on emergency evacuation.
I know that I was sufficiently together during the evacuation that I helped a number of panicing passengers, undo seat belts, get out of their seats and pushed them towards the exits before getting out myself.
As has had been said by previous posters - take any pax accounts with a big pinch of salt. I know that some aspects of my own memories turned out to be inaccurate.
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1.
I'll feel somewhat relieved if the downdraft is not held responsible. I realize there have to be times when such anomalies occur at critical moments, and so could be catalysts toward fatal accidents. Be that as it may, airlines rarely warn their passengers that "we shall arrive at 0730, unless, of course, a difficult wind comes along at the same time we're already dealing with other difficulties, in which case, of course, we shall be killed." There are millions of flights taking place around the world, and, thank goodness, downdrafts are more generally reckoned as dangers through which pilots can and do skillfully maneuver their machines.
Recent headlines [this is one: "Pilots say wind caused Garuda crash"] seem to have said: "It was the downdraft", as though readers would then say, "Oh. Well. No wonder, then."
2.
There is a very healthy belief in this forum that "I know I am right, so you must be wrong." However, the forum title is generously worded: RUMOURS and News. Rumours, according to WordWeb, are "gossip (usually a mixture of truth and untruth) passed around by word of mouth", and are related to "hearsay".
Some folk just want the facts, and that's fine, but that is not really what this forum is exclusively about. It is set up as a conversation pit, and if you don't like the "rumours" component, then it would be appropriate to suggest to the powers that be, for another forum to be established: The Facts Behind the News, or whatever you like. Both could exist side-by-side. But, as things exist, this is Rumours & News. Both.
I'll feel somewhat relieved if the downdraft is not held responsible. I realize there have to be times when such anomalies occur at critical moments, and so could be catalysts toward fatal accidents. Be that as it may, airlines rarely warn their passengers that "we shall arrive at 0730, unless, of course, a difficult wind comes along at the same time we're already dealing with other difficulties, in which case, of course, we shall be killed." There are millions of flights taking place around the world, and, thank goodness, downdrafts are more generally reckoned as dangers through which pilots can and do skillfully maneuver their machines.
Recent headlines [this is one: "Pilots say wind caused Garuda crash"] seem to have said: "It was the downdraft", as though readers would then say, "Oh. Well. No wonder, then."
2.
There is a very healthy belief in this forum that "I know I am right, so you must be wrong." However, the forum title is generously worded: RUMOURS and News. Rumours, according to WordWeb, are "gossip (usually a mixture of truth and untruth) passed around by word of mouth", and are related to "hearsay".
Some folk just want the facts, and that's fine, but that is not really what this forum is exclusively about. It is set up as a conversation pit, and if you don't like the "rumours" component, then it would be appropriate to suggest to the powers that be, for another forum to be established: The Facts Behind the News, or whatever you like. Both could exist side-by-side. But, as things exist, this is Rumours & News. Both.
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PK-KAR
Tidak percaya Ya? Yes thanks I am sure they weren't pulling my leg. There were other factors I didn't mention earlier. The flight was well delayed, the turnround was unusually quick and the taxi out was unprofessionally fast too. I know them, I believe them.
Salamat.
Tidak percaya Ya? Yes thanks I am sure they weren't pulling my leg. There were other factors I didn't mention earlier. The flight was well delayed, the turnround was unusually quick and the taxi out was unprofessionally fast too. I know them, I believe them.
Salamat.
Who's to say the Capt isn't right?
My cynical side tends towards thinking that the crew got themselves into a pickle due to the unspecified problem they faced on approach, once they had been distracted they found themselves too high and too fast but figured they could get down inside the numbers, and I suspect that will be found to be at least a contributory factor.
My kinder side wonders if the numbers that the crew were seeing on approach were within the limits, but somehow they got it wrong. If they believed the flaps were down and the airspeed was OK, the attitude and apparent speed of the aircraft might not have been enough to convince them until too late. The passenger who caught a taxi from the scene said that the spoilers were up but the flaps weren't fully extended. If there was an anomalous airspeed indication, if the flaps lever was in the landing position but the flaps indicator wasn't consulted, the possibility of the plane sinking fast as lift disappeared due to the spoiler deployment seems not too far fetched. If at the same time the crew somehow believed they were within a reasonable range of landing speeds, their behaviour could be plausible.
Just a thought from a curious bystander.
My kinder side wonders if the numbers that the crew were seeing on approach were within the limits, but somehow they got it wrong. If they believed the flaps were down and the airspeed was OK, the attitude and apparent speed of the aircraft might not have been enough to convince them until too late. The passenger who caught a taxi from the scene said that the spoilers were up but the flaps weren't fully extended. If there was an anomalous airspeed indication, if the flaps lever was in the landing position but the flaps indicator wasn't consulted, the possibility of the plane sinking fast as lift disappeared due to the spoiler deployment seems not too far fetched. If at the same time the crew somehow believed they were within a reasonable range of landing speeds, their behaviour could be plausible.
Just a thought from a curious bystander.