Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash
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Grongle,
You have summarised perfectly why, as a professional aviator, I would never let a member of my family fly with a company like Ryanair. Mr O'Leary will profess utter commitment to safety and boast of 'Nil Accidents', whilst behind the scenes his pilots are treated despicably in the name of increased productivity and a culture of 'Press-On-Fast' appears actively encouraged.
If any layman doubted the potential result of any of Ryanair's much publicised 'Rushed-Approaches', then you need look no further that this horrific crash of GA200 at Yogyakarta.
It is but a small step away Mr.O'Leary
You have summarised perfectly why, as a professional aviator, I would never let a member of my family fly with a company like Ryanair. Mr O'Leary will profess utter commitment to safety and boast of 'Nil Accidents', whilst behind the scenes his pilots are treated despicably in the name of increased productivity and a culture of 'Press-On-Fast' appears actively encouraged.
If any layman doubted the potential result of any of Ryanair's much publicised 'Rushed-Approaches', then you need look no further that this horrific crash of GA200 at Yogyakarta.
It is but a small step away Mr.O'Leary
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"Interestingly, Garuda was rated as class II by the govt. last night (with Adam in class III, not surprisingly)... and it was stated that the sole reason of GA entering Class II because of this crash... "accident free" record was required for class I.
Bummer for GA indeed!"
Bummer for GA indeed!"
Complacency is rarely in anyone's interest.
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@ PK-KAR
I have read all 14 pages of this thread.
Your contribution to the debate was very helpfull to form a mental picture of what might have happened.
I also read all on the Adam Air saga and now, out of curiosity, as you mentioned Garuda rated II and Adam rated III, what would be the implications of this rating?
Meaning, for example, the public is discouraged to fly with them, are they on a watch list, are they given time to get themselves "upgraded", etc.
Adam being rated III, fine, but, now what ? As you are "in the know" about Indonesian aviation matters, what is your take on the rating system as, what does it imply and what is the aviation community and the public supposed to expect of it, live with it or does the CAA have a plan, or, do the effected airlines supposed to have a plan?
Not to suggest anything, just curious.
And also, which airlines are rated I ? Again, just curious.
Best regards
E.B.
I have read all 14 pages of this thread.
Your contribution to the debate was very helpfull to form a mental picture of what might have happened.
I also read all on the Adam Air saga and now, out of curiosity, as you mentioned Garuda rated II and Adam rated III, what would be the implications of this rating?
Meaning, for example, the public is discouraged to fly with them, are they on a watch list, are they given time to get themselves "upgraded", etc.
Adam being rated III, fine, but, now what ? As you are "in the know" about Indonesian aviation matters, what is your take on the rating system as, what does it imply and what is the aviation community and the public supposed to expect of it, live with it or does the CAA have a plan, or, do the effected airlines supposed to have a plan?
Not to suggest anything, just curious.
And also, which airlines are rated I ? Again, just curious.
Best regards
E.B.
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Well according to the govt...
Rating I = Satisfactory compliance to the CASR
Rating II = Met all minimum compliance to the CASR
Rating III = As per CAT II but with deficiencies found deemed a risk to aviation safety and security...
Which then makes me wonder why an accident free record is needed for a Rating I.
There's no guarantee that the rating system is executed fairly, to put Adam there is a no brainer, and Batavia joining rating III is not a surprise either... But then there were some political wranglings the night before the ratings were released... *hint! hint*
I see ratings I & II as no more than a gimmick, and only rating III have any form of resemblance to the reality, which the way I see it, is what the government cannot hide + who the government want to sanction on this round.
Rating III airlines are given 3 months to turnaround, which would then lead to an audit, if no satisfactory improvements are made, then the AOC would be temporarily revoked... Then than airline must resubmit all operational and safety documentation in order to regain its AOC. If after 6 months, it'll be permanently revoked, meaning they have to start the AOC process from the start...
However, at no stage are the "permission to operate as an airline" revoked... which is the legal right for the company to work as an airline... this whole thing just looks at their operating permits.
So who's rated I at the moment? NONE ! Again, it's probably window dressing.
PK-KAR
Rating I = Satisfactory compliance to the CASR
Rating II = Met all minimum compliance to the CASR
Rating III = As per CAT II but with deficiencies found deemed a risk to aviation safety and security...
Which then makes me wonder why an accident free record is needed for a Rating I.
There's no guarantee that the rating system is executed fairly, to put Adam there is a no brainer, and Batavia joining rating III is not a surprise either... But then there were some political wranglings the night before the ratings were released... *hint! hint*
I see ratings I & II as no more than a gimmick, and only rating III have any form of resemblance to the reality, which the way I see it, is what the government cannot hide + who the government want to sanction on this round.
Rating III airlines are given 3 months to turnaround, which would then lead to an audit, if no satisfactory improvements are made, then the AOC would be temporarily revoked... Then than airline must resubmit all operational and safety documentation in order to regain its AOC. If after 6 months, it'll be permanently revoked, meaning they have to start the AOC process from the start...
However, at no stage are the "permission to operate as an airline" revoked... which is the legal right for the company to work as an airline... this whole thing just looks at their operating permits.
So who's rated I at the moment? NONE ! Again, it's probably window dressing.
PK-KAR
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PK-KAR
Perhaps it is window dressing, but the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has been sufficiently moved to release a travel bulletin on the subject - see http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-c...ance_Standards
Perhaps it is window dressing, but the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has been sufficiently moved to release a travel bulletin on the subject - see http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-c...ance_Standards
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An interesting concept to illustrate risk versus compliance with safety standards.
I wonder how you would compare Lufthansa to Air France. Whilst both clearly JAR-Ops compliant both have a quite different safety record. Lufthansa despite exposure to all the normal risks in a high density operation have a near perfect record, whilst Air France have suffered three complete hull losses in ther past ten years.
I wonder how you would compare Lufthansa to Air France. Whilst both clearly JAR-Ops compliant both have a quite different safety record. Lufthansa despite exposure to all the normal risks in a high density operation have a near perfect record, whilst Air France have suffered three complete hull losses in ther past ten years.
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Magplug,
Guess what surfaced over the past 24hrs?
The Captain's actions is questioned. The version of the F/O telling the Capt. to go around may be true... despite the lack of data currently publicly available. What baffles everyone if this is true, why is the captain behaving in a way that is very inconsistent with his normal flying behaviour.
That version however has now been explained in that the F/O wouldn't get the flap out due to the speed limit...
Whichever version turns out to be the truth, the question remains... Why not the go-around? Why was the mandatory G/A not taken at 500' when he was not stable/configured...
The NTSC announced today that the CVR and FDR data has been collected, so now they're going to the analysis stage (1-2 months)... then the draft will be reviewed by NTSB and ATSB pending the final report, at the earliest 60 days afterwards.
PK-KAR
Guess what surfaced over the past 24hrs?
The Captain's actions is questioned. The version of the F/O telling the Capt. to go around may be true... despite the lack of data currently publicly available. What baffles everyone if this is true, why is the captain behaving in a way that is very inconsistent with his normal flying behaviour.
That version however has now been explained in that the F/O wouldn't get the flap out due to the speed limit...
Whichever version turns out to be the truth, the question remains... Why not the go-around? Why was the mandatory G/A not taken at 500' when he was not stable/configured...
The NTSC announced today that the CVR and FDR data has been collected, so now they're going to the analysis stage (1-2 months)... then the draft will be reviewed by NTSB and ATSB pending the final report, at the earliest 60 days afterwards.
PK-KAR
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Hi PK-KAR.....
It is amazing that for all the technical dissection and pontification on this forum (usually by those who merely enjoy watching aeroplanes fly), that the reasons that aeroplanes crash are generally simple in concept and have been well understood by professionals for years.
Let be guess the next snippet of news..... The Captain is in the throes of divorce, or he has recently lost a loved one, or is revealed as a drug abuser, or is a gambling addict heavily in debt..... take your pick. Whichever life changing event the poor chap is enduring I wonder how much support he received from his Chief-Pilot? Perhaps the Chief Pilot is also under untenable pressure from the airline executives in attempting to extract the last 0.0001% of extra productivity from his pilots?
Funny old business we are in!
It is amazing that for all the technical dissection and pontification on this forum (usually by those who merely enjoy watching aeroplanes fly), that the reasons that aeroplanes crash are generally simple in concept and have been well understood by professionals for years.
Let be guess the next snippet of news..... The Captain is in the throes of divorce, or he has recently lost a loved one, or is revealed as a drug abuser, or is a gambling addict heavily in debt..... take your pick. Whichever life changing event the poor chap is enduring I wonder how much support he received from his Chief-Pilot? Perhaps the Chief Pilot is also under untenable pressure from the airline executives in attempting to extract the last 0.0001% of extra productivity from his pilots?
Funny old business we are in!
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Searching for ex-Garuda Pilots
Hello aviation buffs,
I work for an Australian television current affairs show. We're doing a special investigation into the Indonesian aviation industry in the aftermath of the crash of GA-200.
Are there any pilots out there who've worked for Garuda previously who'd be willing to talk to us about their experiences? We're especially interested to know whether Garuda has been cutting back on training or maintenance in order to cut costs.
My email address is [email protected].
Please feel free to drop me a line. We have a reporter in Indonesia right now who would be very keen to speak to you.
I work for an Australian television current affairs show. We're doing a special investigation into the Indonesian aviation industry in the aftermath of the crash of GA-200.
Are there any pilots out there who've worked for Garuda previously who'd be willing to talk to us about their experiences? We're especially interested to know whether Garuda has been cutting back on training or maintenance in order to cut costs.
My email address is [email protected].
Please feel free to drop me a line. We have a reporter in Indonesia right now who would be very keen to speak to you.
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Hello thecricket,
After reading your post, one could be forgiven for thinking that Channel 9 have already determined that the cause of this accident was due to cutting back of training and maintenance, and will present that discovery to a shocked Australian audience.
But hang on, wasn't it only a few years ago when the world's safest airline, our own Qantas, ran off the end of the runway at Bangkok. Luckily though the aircraft ended up running onto a golf course, which may have averted a tragedy.
Oh dear.
After reading your post, one could be forgiven for thinking that Channel 9 have already determined that the cause of this accident was due to cutting back of training and maintenance, and will present that discovery to a shocked Australian audience.
But hang on, wasn't it only a few years ago when the world's safest airline, our own Qantas, ran off the end of the runway at Bangkok. Luckily though the aircraft ended up running onto a golf course, which may have averted a tragedy.
Oh dear.
and tends to let the F/O help in the decision making process, as in, not the tyro/ego type with huge loss of face issues...
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I agree with Few Cloudy. There is such a thing as the benefit of the doubt. Thecricket says right up front whom he represents and gives his motivations, and he comes here to ask you fellows for your best opinions. He says he wants to speak with people about their actual experiences. If you can fault that, you can fault anybody for anything.
Be careful, or you'll have another writer coming here to research a new book called Beyond Cynicism.
Be careful, or you'll have another writer coming here to research a new book called Beyond Cynicism.
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We're doing a special investigation into the Indonesian aviation industry in the aftermath of the crash of GA-200
Here we go again down the slippery slope of grooves at Bristol, and how slippery the journalistic interpretation of the 'truth' is.
would be very keen to speak to you.
In any event, I would have thought that talking to pilots from other Indonesian airlines would be a lot more enlightening/entertaining/shocking/titillating than those from Garuda. I would have thought that questions directed at the authorities (such as about the farcicle rating system and 'censure' which MIGHT result in a few MONTHS time - and how it relates to a certain person's determination to 'sort things out') would be a lot more appropriate.
Hang on a minute
Not once has thecricket mentioned that the article, story whatever will be looking at the cause of the GA200 crash.
Its an investigation into the Indonesian Aviation industry in the aftermath of GA200.
Its no wonder these forums get to umpteen pages long when the posts are not actually read correctly.
Its an investigation into the Indonesian Aviation industry in the aftermath of GA200.
Its no wonder these forums get to umpteen pages long when the posts are not actually read correctly.
cricket
A sound starting point would be to consult the requirements of the Channel Nine avaition policy including the list of who you can / can't use.
Then you audit the list of who you have actually used say in the past 24mths.
This may be difficult if you use brokers to obtain your flights as there will be no record of who actually was the operator.
This is especially the case in GA.
The end result will be that you will go with whoever so that you get the story. In the excitement of getting there first and securing the story standards are ignored.
Can't sit back waiting for that approved flight while the opposition is up and running can you.
The exercise would be a productive proactive use of your time.
As for this investigation, leave it to the guys who know what they are doing.
A sound starting point would be to consult the requirements of the Channel Nine avaition policy including the list of who you can / can't use.
Then you audit the list of who you have actually used say in the past 24mths.
This may be difficult if you use brokers to obtain your flights as there will be no record of who actually was the operator.
This is especially the case in GA.
The end result will be that you will go with whoever so that you get the story. In the excitement of getting there first and securing the story standards are ignored.
Can't sit back waiting for that approved flight while the opposition is up and running can you.
The exercise would be a productive proactive use of your time.
As for this investigation, leave it to the guys who know what they are doing.
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Its an investigation into the Indonesian Aviation industry
whether Garuda has been cutting back on training or maintenance in order to cut costs
megle2 - nice perspective
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Maybe because one might get nearer to the crux of the problem with aviation in Indonesia??
With all the complaints that has been running around about the industry from the insiders, it's still hard to get people who want to speak out on public record.
looks like the 'investigation' is already prejudiced as to possible cause / other problems - unless they know something that no-one else does YET.
PK-KAR
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Absent-mindedness' behind Garuda crash: 'Sunday' report
The chief investigator was interviewd on the Sunday program (in Oz) this morning with interesting revelations.
Here's the article from Ninemsn.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=257936
Speaking to SUNDAY reporter Sarah Ferguson, Mr Tatang Kurniadi, Chairman of National Transportation Safety Committee, said "absent-mindedness" was the reason for March 7 tragedy.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=257936
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In light of the rest of that article - "absent-mindedness" seems a little strange use of phraseology - but then again, I suppose it's not an 'official' release.
Does that remind anyone of RA's botched MA/GA/circle to position/aborted landing(whatever
) incident at Cork? Both cases had experienced captains (who it SEEMS messed up) - both cases inexperienced co-pilots (who apparently were thinking the right way and tried to intervene).
Yep - I think I'd definitely go along with you on that. . But then what are the chances for a (very) hard-nosed Indonesian reporter going down that road? From an Indonesian standpoint, is anyone likely to view GA200 more significantly in the longterm, than any of the other accidents, just because it involved the national carrier?
The co-pilot is a young pilot, just 2000 flying hours, and the captain is experienced — more than 15,000 flying hours
) incident at Cork? Both cases had experienced captains (who it SEEMS messed up) - both cases inexperienced co-pilots (who apparently were thinking the right way and tried to intervene).
Well, it'll be a fast method to obtain deportation knowing Indonesia!
. But then what are the chances for a (very) hard-nosed Indonesian reporter going down that road? From an Indonesian standpoint, is anyone likely to view GA200 more significantly in the longterm, than any of the other accidents, just because it involved the national carrier?
Last edited by theamrad; 1st Apr 2007 at 01:03. Reason: typo