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Mid-air collision over Brasil

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Old 27th Oct 2006, 12:32
  #641 (permalink)  
 
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I think America will remain interested in this incident seeing as two of its citizens remain under house arrest in a foreign country.

Infact, heres some more news now.....


Flight Data from Brazil Plane Crash Denied to Police

Hellen Berger
The Associated Press


Aviation investigators have denied federal police access to the flight data recorders from a Boeing 737 and an executive jet that collided Sept. 29 in Brazil's deadliest air disaster, an air force official said Wednesday.

All 154 people aboard Gol Airlines flight 1907 were killed when it crashed in the dense Amazon jungle of Mato Grosso state following the midair collision. The Embraer Legacy 600 jet landed safely at a nearby air force base with all seven people aboard unharmed.

The Center for Investigation and Prevention of Flight Accidents, or Cenipa, said it was refusing to give police access to the recorders based on rules under the Convention on International Civil Aviation, also known as the Chicago Convention, designed to protect information given voluntarily to investigators.

"We cannot release the data directly to Brazil's federal police," said an air force communications officer who gave his name only as Lt. Silva, following official policy. "The federal police may retrieve it through legal means, though, which is normal in such cases."

Fagner Santos, a spokesman for the federal police, said they have filed a court petition requesting access to the data for their investigation which could result in criminal indictments.

The flight data recorders of both planes were analyzed in Canada but the cause of the accident has not yet been announced. The Defense Ministry said the voice recorder of the Boeing 737 was found on Tuesday and would be sent to the International Organization of Civil Aviation in Canada for analysis.

Police expect the recorders will help them determine the cause of the collision by revealing the communications between the pilots and traffic controllers.
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Old 27th Oct 2006, 15:28
  #642 (permalink)  
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For me there is only one thing left " against " the legacy pilots : did one of them swich the Xponder off voluntarily , or did the Xponder went automativcally on stand by as did some of the little brothers of the Honeywell Primus in Europe recently ?
The problem as I understand it ( and someone correct me if I am wrong ) , is that the Legacy FDR does not record the Xponder inputs , just the fact that it is ON , SBY or OFF. And that info is in the hands of the FAB / CENIPA since quite a while.

If nothing can be proven then , in my opinion,the doubt should benefit the defendants, and the 2 guys should be left alone and allowed to return to their homes.

The other suggestions/ claims that they did not follow the valid comm failure procedure in force is vague ,and is in any case not a voluntary act, not even gross negligence, just ignorance, and does not justify their further retention , again in my opinion..

I am also surprised at USALPA silence in this case.
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Old 27th Oct 2006, 19:15
  #643 (permalink)  
 
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Link to photo of Gol CVR
http://www.agenciabrasil.gov.br/medi...06321.jpg/view
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Old 27th Oct 2006, 22:19
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Probably a stoopid question , Why does an american built plane delivered to a Brazilian customer have a CVR with French markings ?.
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Old 27th Oct 2006, 23:06
  #645 (permalink)  
 
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Hawk, yes, and of course I wasn't suggesting the Legacy crew should "sit back and wait". I still tend to think their passports will be returned soon and that a face-saving way will be found for the prosecutor to back off now that he's been told Cindacta will not be releasing any further "evidence" without a Supreme Court order.

The automatic withdrawal from duty of all the ATC staff (eight or eleven, not sure) involved in this accident is having a knock-on effect, with flights being delayed or cancelled in BSB and other airports. In BSB, "to avoid overload" as one controller can handle max 14 aircraft. In pretty much the same breath, Infraero president complaining of budget restraints and of "too many GA aircraft".

ATC reps (there's no union) have circulated a long overworked/underpaid/danger-in-the-skies letter. Very little is being decided in Brasilia right now, all attention on election Sunday 29th, so the atmosphere in that part of government is probably pretty poisonous at present.

Just to forstall any conspiracy theorists who might surface on seeing the pristine nature of the 738 CVR after three weeks buried in the undergrowth, it is said to have been wiped off and replaced in the hole for the photo. For Widgeon, one assumes that printed on the other side would be "Do not open".
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Old 27th Oct 2006, 23:11
  #646 (permalink)  
 
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From IFALPA today

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
I am also surprised at USALPA silence in this case.
IFALPA urges use of ICAO best practices in Brazilian
mid-air collision investigation

CHERTSEY 27 October: The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) extends its condolences to the families of the victims of the recent collision involving a Gol Airlines B737 and an
Embraer Legacy.
The Federation urges the Brazilian authorities to conduct a full accident investigation, unhindered by the prospect of judicial interference. “Global best practice, as reflected in ICAO Standards, requires considerable autonomy for the investigative process” stated IFALPA President, Captain Dennis Dolan.
Dolan goes on to state: “This is a high visibility accident, and the global aviation community will be watching closely to see that all possible safety lessons are gleaned from this tragedy.”
Notes to Editors
The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations represents in excess of 100,000 pilots in more than 95 countries world-wide. The mission of IFALPA is to be the global voice of airline pilots, promoting
the highest level of aviation safety and security world-wide and providing services, support and representation to all of its Member Associations. See the Federation website www.ifalpa.org
For more information contact Gideon Ewers, IFALPA Media Communications Officer +44 1932 579041 or on [email protected]


Last edited by caos; 27th Oct 2006 at 23:12. Reason: font size
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Old 28th Oct 2006, 18:46
  #647 (permalink)  
 
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http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/200.../286434191.asp
The defense minister said this friday that there is a project of increasing greatly the number of ATCs. According to him, the flight congestion that happened in Brasilia doesn´t have to be with the fact that 8 ATC working the day of the GOL accidente, were moved away.
...the ATCs will continue being militars, as he says that the control of air space is a matter or national security.

I think it´s possible that they noticed that the lack of ATC´s may have caused the accident.
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Old 28th Oct 2006, 23:38
  #648 (permalink)  
 
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ATC slowdown in Brazil

Well he would, wouldn't he. One ATC representative said on Globo TV this afternoon that on their own initiative the controllers are limiting the aircraft they handle to no more than 14 whereas "before" they were handling up to 20, sometimes 22. Which creates a pretty embarassing situation for the aeronautical authorities and an interesting one from the insurance viewpoint.
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Old 29th Oct 2006, 09:21
  #649 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by broadreach
Well he would, wouldn't he. One ATC representative said on Globo TV this afternoon that on their own initiative the controllers are limiting the aircraft they handle to no more than 14 whereas "before" they were handling up to 20, sometimes 22. Which creates a pretty embarassing situation for the aeronautical authorities and an interesting one from the insurance viewpoint.
I´d certainly be a clue for this case, don´t you think?. Surprinsingly the ATCs may be showing us the real thing of what happened.
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Old 29th Oct 2006, 09:34
  #650 (permalink)  
 
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2 things: 1) Is there a pic of the Legacy that sustained damage? Then anyone would be able to reach a conclusion as to how/most likely place it smashed into the 737

2) That pic of the CVR doesn't look genuine. It looks perfectly in tack, no damage to the writing, and in French? How bizarre.
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Old 29th Oct 2006, 10:05
  #651 (permalink)  
 
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Lovejet, I realise that there are now 33 plus pages. However, if you look back near the start you'll find pictures of the damaged Legacy and also diagrams of the possible points of impact. With regard to the CVR, it may well be that the same is written in English on the side which is facing down.
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Old 29th Oct 2006, 10:40
  #652 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by loveJet
.........and in French? How bizarre.
I thought all CVR's FDR's had 'Do Not Open' placards in English and French --- for some reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_data_recorder
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Old 29th Oct 2006, 12:06
  #653 (permalink)  

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@lovejet: Ahem, from post #650 slightly above yours:
Originally Posted by broadreach
Just to forstall any conspiracy theorists who might surface on seeing the pristine nature of the 738 CVR after three weeks buried in the undergrowth, it is said to have been wiped off and replaced in the hole for the photo. For Widgeon, one assumes that printed on the other side would be "Do not open".
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Old 29th Oct 2006, 12:54
  #654 (permalink)  
 
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from O'Globo news, yesterday

Oct 28 2006

LEGACY WAS AT 37 THOUSAND FEET WITH AUTHORIZATION, LAWYER SAYS


It was the control of flight of São José dos Campos that authorized the executive jet Legacy, that was shocked with a Gol Boeing on September 29, to be in the altitude of 37 thousand feet to Manaus. The information belongs to the American Robert Torricella, lawyer of ExcelAire (company owner of Legacy) in the United States and who coordinates the pilots' defense, in interview to the magazine “Veja” of this week. It was the first time that one of the pilots' lawyers showed openly on the case, according to the magazine "Veja". According to Torricella, the authorization was given by the tower a little before Legacy to take off.

"In the deposition to the Civil Police, the pilots had statement exactly that: they flew to 37 thousand feet, with authorization of the air traffic control", told to G1 Theodomiro Dias Neto, pled responsible criminologist lawyer by the case in Brazil. The pilots' version given to the Civil Police was shown by the "Fantastic" on October 8 (reads the text of the report of the "Fantastic" here).

The statement of Torricella confirms the theory shown already by G1 that the one that is worth is the plan of authorized flight for the control tower a little before the takeoff, and not the flight plan that is in the paper.

Note: G1 is O'Globo news.
Source: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...98-295,00.html
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Old 1st Nov 2006, 01:44
  #655 (permalink)  
 
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At CNN today
Brazil air controllers decline crash questions

POSTED: 12:00 p.m. EST, October 31, 2006


RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (AP) -- Ten flight controllers have said they are under psychiatric treatment and declined to be questioned by federal police about a September 29 midair collision that killed 154 people in Brazil's worst air disaster, the government news service reported Tuesday.
A Boeing 737-800 of Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes SA, Brazil's No. 2 airline, collided with a Brazilian-made Legacy 600 executive jet over the Amazon jungle of Mato Grosso state. All 154 people aboard the Boeing were killed, while the Legacy landed safely at a nearby air force base.
Federal police inspector Renato Sayao had planned to question the flight controllers, who were assigned to airports in Manaus, in the western Amazon jungle, and Brasilia, the central capital, but the Brazilian Air Force said they were flight controllers were under psychiatric treatment until November 13, Agencia Brasil reported.
The flight data recorders of both planes were analyzed in Canada but the cause of the collision has not yet been announced.
The temporary suspension of the flight controllers forced the Air Force and the National Agency of Civil Aviation led to personnel shortages and delays of up to seven hours in flights from the cities of Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Belo Horizonte and Brasilia.
According to the Estado news agency, small planes and executive jets could not take off, land or fly over those cities during peak traffic hours. The ban does not cover emergency medical flights or military or presidential flights, the agency said.
Air travel is expected to increase this week because of Brazil's Memorial Day holiday on Thursday.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html
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Old 1st Nov 2006, 11:26
  #656 (permalink)  
 
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where they in lost comm?

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Answers to 3 of your points :

1- The crew said they tuned 7600 as soon as they realised they lost contact ( their deposition )

2- Yes , and they probably will have done so . Therefore there must be something else , additional factors to explain why they did not.
ATC, like life, is not that simple.

3- Not really , how are you going to land if you are on an IFR PLN in IMC in dense congested airspace ? that why ICAO changed the rules.
Where did you read about (1) that they tuned 7600?? Never read it before!!
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Old 1st Nov 2006, 23:49
  #657 (permalink)  
 
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Zilbert, you'll have to go back through the thirty-odd pages. Just about everything imaginable has been said.

Re the ATC work-to-rule, it's now is an absolute shambles that will provide lawyers with oodles of work for many years to come. The Gol/Legacy accident has unleashed all the resentment of allegedly underpaid and overworked ATCers, mostly military (and without a public voice) but partly civilian (with, now, a banner under which to protest).

Delays and cancellations are the order of the day; a "Crisis Room" in Rio, on TV this evening, where reps from all involved try to decide collectively who has priority; retirees being called up; president Lula in his first port-re-election crisis demanding "I want a solution"; defense minister Pires saying "'Aeronautica' never informed me of the ATC shortage..."; north-south flights being rerouted over the ocean to alleviate the load on Brasilia which is said to handle 3/4ths of Brazil's flights, and so forth.

Somebody pinch me - didn't I see something similar in the US during the Reagan administration, and then in Europe twenty years ago?
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Old 2nd Nov 2006, 01:06
  #658 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by broadreach
Zilbert, you'll have to go back through the thirty-odd pages. Just about everything imaginable has been said.

Re the ATC work-to-rule, it's now is an absolute shambles that will provide lawyers with oodles of work for many years to come. The Gol/Legacy accident has unleashed all the resentment of allegedly underpaid and overworked ATCers, mostly military (and without a public voice) but partly civilian (with, now, a banner under which to protest).

Delays and cancellations are the order of the day; a "Crisis Room" in Rio, on TV this evening, where reps from all involved try to decide collectively who has priority; retirees being called up; president Lula in his first port-re-election crisis demanding "I want a solution"; defense minister Pires saying "'Aeronautica' never informed me of the ATC shortage..."; north-south flights being rerouted over the ocean to alleviate the load on Brasilia which is said to handle 3/4ths of Brazil's flights, and so forth.

Somebody pinch me - didn't I see something similar in the US during the Reagan administration, and then in Europe twenty years ago?
Well said broadreach
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...6350834,00.jpg
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Old 2nd Nov 2006, 11:09
  #659 (permalink)  
 
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Today in brazilian press they are saying that the ATC in São José dos Campos, during take off clearence, said " cleared at 37,000 to MANAUS", so that would overcome the flight plan and pilots should do all trip at 37,000.

Because of that the first controller should be blamed for most of the responsability in the accident. Many other things would have contributed to the accident, including pilots.

All this delay in brazilian ATC is now an "answer" from other controlers showing how traffic would be if they would follow all instructions and regulatios. They wanna prove that their coleague mistake was due to overworking.

Those are the rumors!
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Old 2nd Nov 2006, 16:22
  #660 (permalink)  
 
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hmmm, check out these two articles.
things are starting to look good for the legacy pilots.

========================================================

Tower Error Led To Brazil Jet Air Collision - Report

DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
November 2, 2006 9:59 a.m.

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP)--The flight recorder transcript from the executive jet involved in Brazil's worst air disaster shows that the jet's American pilots were told by Brazilian air traffic control to fly at the same altitude as a Boeing 737 before the planes collided over the Amazon rainforest, the Folha de S. Paulo newspaper reported Thursday.

According to Folha, the flight recorder shows American pilot Joseph Lepore receiving instructions from the tower in Sao Jose dos Campos to fly northwest at 37,000 feet (11,277 meters) "until Eduardo Gomes," the airport in Manaus. That altitude contradicted the pilots' filed flight plan and as an odd-numbered altitude should be reserved for southbound flights.

Folha did not reveal how it had obtained the transcript, which the air force has not yet released to federal police investigating the Sept. 29 crash. All 154 people on board the Gol airline's 737 were killed. The badly damaged executive jet managed to land safely, and the American pilots have been ordered to stay in Brazil during the investigation.

=======================================================

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

Brazil air controllers decline crash questions

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (AP) -- Ten flight controllers have said they are under psychiatric treatment and declined to be questioned by federal police about a September 29 midair collision that killed 154 people in Brazil's worst air disaster, the government news service reported Tuesday.

A Boeing 737-800 of Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes SA, Brazil's No. 2 airline, collided with a Brazilian-made Legacy 600 executive jet over the Amazon jungle of Mato Grosso state. All 154 people aboard the Boeing were killed, while the Legacy landed safely at a nearby air force base.

Federal police inspector Renato Sayao had planned to question the flight controllers, who were assigned to airports in Manaus, in the western Amazon jungle, and Brasilia, the central capital, but the Brazilian Air Force said they were flight controllers were under psychiatric treatment until November 13, Agencia Brasil reported.

The flight data recorders of both planes were analyzed in Canada but the cause of the collision has not yet been announced.

The temporary suspension of the flight controllers forced the Air Force and the National Agency of Civil Aviation led to personnel shortages and delays of up to seven hours in flights from the cities of Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Belo Horizonte and Brasilia.

According to the Estado news agency, small planes and executive jets could not take off, land or fly over those cities during peak traffic hours. The ban does not cover emergency medical flights or military or presidential flights, the agency said.

Air travel is expected to increase this week because of Brazil's Memorial Day holiday on Thursday.
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