Mid-air collision over Brasil
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Mystery Surrounds Brazilian Jetliner Crash
Jack Chang, Kevin G. Hall
The Star Tribune
On a warm afternoon three weeks ago, a Boeing 737 passenger jet was cruising 37,000 feet above the Amazon jungle when, seemingly out of nowhere, a U.S.-owned corporate jet flying in the opposite direction clipped the passenger jet's right wing and tail. The Boeing went into a free fall that killed all 154 people aboard. It was the deadliest plane crash in Brazilian history.
Brazilian investigators still haven't figured out how the accident Sept. 29 happened. Experts said the odds against such an incident were upward of 200 million to 1.
But U.S. experts are worried that Brazilian officials are trying to absolve themselves of blame by focusing on the corporate jet's American pilots, who managed to land their plane safely. Both are under house arrest in a Brazilian hotel and have had their passports seized.
Brazilian Defense Minister Waldir Pires has said air-traffic controllers weren't at fault and has speculated that the American pilots may have turned off the jet's transponder, a device that would've announced the plane's altitude to controllers and possibly helped prevent the accident.
There's been no evidence released officially that would support suggestions that the pilots did anything to place their plane or the Boeing 737 in jeopardy.
But the stakes are high, not just for the New York-based pilots, Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino but also for the Brazilian air traffic-control system.
With lawyers from around the world flocking to Brazil to represent the victims' families, the fate of the corporate jet's owner, ExcelAire, also hangs in the balance.
Peter Goeltz, a former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates air disasters in the United States and often abroad, has noted what he thinks is the irregular nature so far of the Brazilian investigation. "I would say there was a considerable amount of what sounded like official speculation early on, which was unusual."
The investigation also has drawn attention to what many experts say are flaws in Brazil's protocol for investigating air crashes. Not only does the military run the air traffic-control system, it also investigates plane accidents, meaning air force officials are asked to monitor themselves. Investigations are conducted behind closed doors.
Jack Chang, Kevin G. Hall
The Star Tribune
On a warm afternoon three weeks ago, a Boeing 737 passenger jet was cruising 37,000 feet above the Amazon jungle when, seemingly out of nowhere, a U.S.-owned corporate jet flying in the opposite direction clipped the passenger jet's right wing and tail. The Boeing went into a free fall that killed all 154 people aboard. It was the deadliest plane crash in Brazilian history.
Brazilian investigators still haven't figured out how the accident Sept. 29 happened. Experts said the odds against such an incident were upward of 200 million to 1.
But U.S. experts are worried that Brazilian officials are trying to absolve themselves of blame by focusing on the corporate jet's American pilots, who managed to land their plane safely. Both are under house arrest in a Brazilian hotel and have had their passports seized.
Brazilian Defense Minister Waldir Pires has said air-traffic controllers weren't at fault and has speculated that the American pilots may have turned off the jet's transponder, a device that would've announced the plane's altitude to controllers and possibly helped prevent the accident.
There's been no evidence released officially that would support suggestions that the pilots did anything to place their plane or the Boeing 737 in jeopardy.
But the stakes are high, not just for the New York-based pilots, Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino but also for the Brazilian air traffic-control system.
With lawyers from around the world flocking to Brazil to represent the victims' families, the fate of the corporate jet's owner, ExcelAire, also hangs in the balance.
Peter Goeltz, a former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates air disasters in the United States and often abroad, has noted what he thinks is the irregular nature so far of the Brazilian investigation. "I would say there was a considerable amount of what sounded like official speculation early on, which was unusual."
The investigation also has drawn attention to what many experts say are flaws in Brazil's protocol for investigating air crashes. Not only does the military run the air traffic-control system, it also investigates plane accidents, meaning air force officials are asked to monitor themselves. Investigations are conducted behind closed doors.
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Originally Posted by Mercenary Pilot 
(quoting the media) "Experts said the odds against such an incident were upward of 200 million to 1."
Agreed barit1,
Although my airline is a large carrier in South America, we have had something like 2 or 3 planes take evasive action in the middle of the night for conflicting traffic at the wrong altitude. I know TCAS saved one double widebody collision, another saw another A/C at night sans lights at the same altitude.
We've operated many flights down there, there but I don't think we've had 600 million flights in the 75 year history of our airline worldwide if we use the "experts" methodology.
(quoting the media) "Experts said the odds against such an incident were upward of 200 million to 1."
Agreed barit1,
Although my airline is a large carrier in South America, we have had something like 2 or 3 planes take evasive action in the middle of the night for conflicting traffic at the wrong altitude. I know TCAS saved one double widebody collision, another saw another A/C at night sans lights at the same altitude.
We've operated many flights down there, there but I don't think we've had 600 million flights in the 75 year history of our airline worldwide if we use the "experts" methodology.
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Whatever thier sources are, I think the chances of losing comms, radar contact, having a total transponder failure AND THEN actually having a mid-air collision must be extremly low. Maybe thats what they are getting at?
I made the post to highlight the growing concern of how the Brazilian Air Force are handling the investigation.
I made the post to highlight the growing concern of how the Brazilian Air Force are handling the investigation.
October 24th, 2006 10:30 AM PDT
Embraer Asked to Provide Records for Legacy Aircraft
Airline Industry Information
Brazil's aircraft maker Embraer has been asked by the country's federal police to provide records of test flights and the flight data recorder for an executive jet that collided with a Boeing 737.
According to a federal police press officer, investigator Renato Sayao wants to examine the records of the four test flights and three acceptance flights, The Associated Press reported.
The Legacy aircraft was on its maiden flight to purchaser ExcelAire Service Inc in the United States when it collided mid-air with GOL Flight 1907 on 29 September. All the 154 people on board the GOL flight were killed while the Legacy landed safely at an air force base.
Embraer Testing Department director Mauro Costa told police that the seven test flights occurred without incident and that there was no failure in the transponder that provides the aircraft's location or in the TCAS anti-collision system.
It has been reported that early analysis of the flight data recorders indicated that the Legacy's transponder was not providing its location at the time of the accident.
Embraer Asked to Provide Records for Legacy Aircraft
Airline Industry Information
Brazil's aircraft maker Embraer has been asked by the country's federal police to provide records of test flights and the flight data recorder for an executive jet that collided with a Boeing 737.
According to a federal police press officer, investigator Renato Sayao wants to examine the records of the four test flights and three acceptance flights, The Associated Press reported.
The Legacy aircraft was on its maiden flight to purchaser ExcelAire Service Inc in the United States when it collided mid-air with GOL Flight 1907 on 29 September. All the 154 people on board the GOL flight were killed while the Legacy landed safely at an air force base.
Embraer Testing Department director Mauro Costa told police that the seven test flights occurred without incident and that there was no failure in the transponder that provides the aircraft's location or in the TCAS anti-collision system.
It has been reported that early analysis of the flight data recorders indicated that the Legacy's transponder was not providing its location at the time of the accident.
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Originally Posted by Mercenary Pilot
(quoting the media) "Experts said the odds against such an incident were upward of 200 million to 1."
Agreed barit1,
Although my airline is a large carrier in South America, we have had something like 2 or 3 planes take evasive action in the middle of the night for conflicting traffic at the wrong altitude. I know TCAS saved one double widebody collision, another saw another A/C at night sans lights at the same altitude.
We've operated many flights down there, there but I don't think we've had 600 million flights in the 75 year history of our airline worldwide if we use the "experts" methodology.
(quoting the media) "Experts said the odds against such an incident were upward of 200 million to 1."
Agreed barit1,
Although my airline is a large carrier in South America, we have had something like 2 or 3 planes take evasive action in the middle of the night for conflicting traffic at the wrong altitude. I know TCAS saved one double widebody collision, another saw another A/C at night sans lights at the same altitude.
We've operated many flights down there, there but I don't think we've had 600 million flights in the 75 year history of our airline worldwide if we use the "experts" methodology.
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It had to have been the pilots. Get the flight test mx records. If the transponder didn't fault on those flights it has to be proof that the pilots turned it off....(please note author's sacrasm while reading...)
I like the Defense Minister's public announcements. Could we get Don Rumsfield to comment on U.S. crashes while the investigation is still ongoing?
Yes, I know he's responsible for the investigation. Even more reason, as the former NTSB official indicates, to be very careful in his statements.
I like the Defense Minister's public announcements. Could we get Don Rumsfield to comment on U.S. crashes while the investigation is still ongoing?
Yes, I know he's responsible for the investigation. Even more reason, as the former NTSB official indicates, to be very careful in his statements.
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CVR was found today
" The ministry of the Defense and the Aeronautics informed on this Tuesday (24) that was found the box of recording of voice of Boeing 737-800 of the Gol. "
source: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...98-295,00.html
Also in today's news...
There they go, all in "family".
source: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...98-295,00.html
Also in today's news...
The Center of Investigation and Aeronautical Prevention of Accident (Cenipa), linked organ to the Command of the Aeronautics, informed the Federal Police officially on this Tuesday (24) that won't review the data contained in the black boxes of the airplanes Boeing and Legacy involved in the accident of the flight 1907 of the Gol, that killed 154 people.
Cenipa won't also review the police officer Renato Sayăo, responsible for the inquiry of PF (Federal Police), the information on the expertise in the equipments of the two airplanes. PF received an occupation signed by the juridical consultantship of the Command of the Aeronautics mentioning safety's numbers 3-6 and 3-12 norms. For the military legislation "the information cannot be used in processes that can take to the punishment of having involved in accidents."
source: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...1-5598,00.html
Cenipa won't also review the police officer Renato Sayăo, responsible for the inquiry of PF (Federal Police), the information on the expertise in the equipments of the two airplanes. PF received an occupation signed by the juridical consultantship of the Command of the Aeronautics mentioning safety's numbers 3-6 and 3-12 norms. For the military legislation "the information cannot be used in processes that can take to the punishment of having involved in accidents."
source: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...1-5598,00.html
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" The ministry of the Defense and the Aeronautics informed on this Tuesday (24) that was found the box of recording of voice of Boeing 737-800 of the Gol. "
source: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...98-295,00.html
Also in today's news...
There they go, all in "family".
source: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...98-295,00.html
Also in today's news...
There they go, all in "family".
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CENIPA is member of Flight Safety Foundation; they signed a resolution noting the increased criminalization of aviation accidents.
Here is the resolution: http://www.flightsafety.org/pdf/resolution_10-06.pdf
Last edited by caos; 25th Oct 2006 at 00:58. Reason: add info
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Flight Safety Foundation
Here you can see more related to this point.
US Flight Safety Foundation Urges Brazilian Police to Keep Off the Boeing's Inquiry
Written by Newsroom Friday, 06 October 2006
The American NGO Flight Safety Foundation has released a note in which it calls Brazilian aviation authorities a "shining example" on how to investigate aviation accidents and incidents.
At the same time they suggest that the police should not interfere in the work of the aviation experts. Brazil should resist any public pressure and should not rush to judge all those involved in the case, says the Foundation.
The note reminds that traditionally the Cenipa, Brazil's Center for Investigation of Aeronautical Accidents has been able to conduct its job without outside interference and urges that once again the organ be allowed to act independently.
On Wednesday, October 4, the Brazilian Federal Police opened an inquiry to find out whether the pilot and the copilot of the Legacy jet that collided with Gol's Boeing 737, killing 154 people, in the Brazil's worst air accident ever, should be blamed for the tragedy.
Here's the Flight Safety Foundation note:
The Flight Safety Foundation today encouraged Brazilian authorities so continue in their long-standing tradition of thorough aviation accident investigation with minimal interference from law enforcement in the case of the recent tragic accident involving a Gol Airlines aircraft.
"Brazil has always been a shining example of how to investigate an aviation accident or incident," commented Foundation president and CEO Bill Voss. "Traditionally, the Center for Investigation of Aeronautical Accidents (Cenipa) has conducted investigations with no interference from law enforcement.
"This allows an efficient investigation to proceed and answers to be found. In the case of clear negligence, appropriate civil and administrative remedies exist to deal with this tragedy after all the facts are in."
The Brazilian government is a member of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Council and was part of the global consensus supporting the amendment Annex 13, to protect accident investigations from prosecutorial involvement until the investigation is concluded.
"We call on the Brazilian government to stay strong in the face of immense public pressure and continue to respect the integrity of the investigation and not rush to judge the various players in this accident," Voss continued. "We join all of Brazil in mourning this terrible loss, but strongly urge that the Cenipa be allowed to do its job without interference so that accidents like this can be avoided in the future."
http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/7343/53/
Written by Newsroom Friday, 06 October 2006
The American NGO Flight Safety Foundation has released a note in which it calls Brazilian aviation authorities a "shining example" on how to investigate aviation accidents and incidents.
At the same time they suggest that the police should not interfere in the work of the aviation experts. Brazil should resist any public pressure and should not rush to judge all those involved in the case, says the Foundation.
The note reminds that traditionally the Cenipa, Brazil's Center for Investigation of Aeronautical Accidents has been able to conduct its job without outside interference and urges that once again the organ be allowed to act independently.
On Wednesday, October 4, the Brazilian Federal Police opened an inquiry to find out whether the pilot and the copilot of the Legacy jet that collided with Gol's Boeing 737, killing 154 people, in the Brazil's worst air accident ever, should be blamed for the tragedy.
Here's the Flight Safety Foundation note:
The Flight Safety Foundation today encouraged Brazilian authorities so continue in their long-standing tradition of thorough aviation accident investigation with minimal interference from law enforcement in the case of the recent tragic accident involving a Gol Airlines aircraft.
"Brazil has always been a shining example of how to investigate an aviation accident or incident," commented Foundation president and CEO Bill Voss. "Traditionally, the Center for Investigation of Aeronautical Accidents (Cenipa) has conducted investigations with no interference from law enforcement.
"This allows an efficient investigation to proceed and answers to be found. In the case of clear negligence, appropriate civil and administrative remedies exist to deal with this tragedy after all the facts are in."
The Brazilian government is a member of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Council and was part of the global consensus supporting the amendment Annex 13, to protect accident investigations from prosecutorial involvement until the investigation is concluded.
"We call on the Brazilian government to stay strong in the face of immense public pressure and continue to respect the integrity of the investigation and not rush to judge the various players in this accident," Voss continued. "We join all of Brazil in mourning this terrible loss, but strongly urge that the Cenipa be allowed to do its job without interference so that accidents like this can be avoided in the future."
http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/7343/53/
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I’ve spent most of my career “domestic” in the states. One of the more interesting aspects of this investigation is the differences between the FAA and ICAO on lost Com procedures.
For you international folks, how many different protocols are there for loss of Com?
For you international folks, how many different protocols are there for loss of Com?
Lost comm procedures in Australia:
- if clearance route or altitude limit applies then maintain alt or route for 3 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if receiving vectors then maintain last vector for 2 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if holding then make 1 ful pattern then proceed as per flight plan.
- if clearance route or altitude limit applies then maintain alt or route for 3 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if receiving vectors then maintain last vector for 2 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if holding then make 1 ful pattern then proceed as per flight plan.
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Lost comm procedures in Australia:
- if clearance route or altitude limit applies then maintain alt or route for 3 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if receiving vectors then maintain last vector for 2 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if holding then make 1 ful pattern then proceed as per flight plan.
- if clearance route or altitude limit applies then maintain alt or route for 3 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if receiving vectors then maintain last vector for 2 minutes then proceed as per flight plan.
- if holding then make 1 ful pattern then proceed as per flight plan.
I still don't like the time limits. Two or Three minutes is even worse than what was stated to be the procedure in Brazil. What if ATC loses their radios for 10 minutes? Certainly everybody is at an altitude that would maintain separation for 10 minutes. But, if after 3 minutes all airplanes in that sector start changing altitudes, it seems more dangerous to me than just sitting tight on course and altitude.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com....1-Aug-2006.pdf
Expectation as per the main text is that you would follow flight planned route and alt. However see note 2 appended to the main text also indicates that last clearance alt could be appropriate... The regulator seems to have a bit of 2 bob each way on this crucial issue. The way i read it though is that following the cleared alt is referring to terminal area ops on descent where the cleared alt is less than flight planned alt and resuming flight planned alt is not practicable.
If it were me after a planned waypoint and planned alt change with lost comm i would be at flight planned alt tracking to flight planned destination conforming to appropriate hemispherical alt. Having said that the purpose of the procedure is, explicitly, to make ATC and other traffic aware of the pilots most likley actions.
Expectation as per the main text is that you would follow flight planned route and alt. However see note 2 appended to the main text also indicates that last clearance alt could be appropriate... The regulator seems to have a bit of 2 bob each way on this crucial issue. The way i read it though is that following the cleared alt is referring to terminal area ops on descent where the cleared alt is less than flight planned alt and resuming flight planned alt is not practicable.
If it were me after a planned waypoint and planned alt change with lost comm i would be at flight planned alt tracking to flight planned destination conforming to appropriate hemispherical alt. Having said that the purpose of the procedure is, explicitly, to make ATC and other traffic aware of the pilots most likley actions.
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Jepps pages for each country spell out changes from ICAO standards. If things go wrong a quick read of those pages should be included.
Yes, found and apparently intact, buried nearly a foot underground. Enroute to Canada either tomorrow (Friday 27 Oct) or the day after.
With all the recorders together, with the accident now fading from headlines and perhaps less attractive to publicity-conscious prosecutors, sit back and wait for the reports; there will be little between now and then.
With all the recorders together, with the accident now fading from headlines and perhaps less attractive to publicity-conscious prosecutors, sit back and wait for the reports; there will be little between now and then.
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sit back and wait