Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky

[FIRESYSOK]

Originally Posted by Xeque

Thanks ATPMBA.
I asked this question earlier but no-one answered me.

[retracted]

Human factors study clearly indicates that the mind can be fooled into thinking it's somewhere it is not. Also check the BMI accident at Kegworth. They clearly thought the problem was with one engine after retarding the throttle cleared the vibration.

[noullet]

Originally Posted by Astra driver

Just a technique that I have used for years;
When taxiing out to the assigned runway I always put my heading bug on the assigned rwy heading. Furthermore, if I have no immediate use for the CDI I also align it with runway heading, I also find this technique usefull for aligning with the correct runway on circling approaches. Not saying that I couldn't line up on the wrong runway, but that's all the more reason to use every resource available.

Good technique. Also, if an FMC was aboard, & I don't know if the CRJ-200 ER has one or not, KLEX would have been entered with rwy 22, the A/C triangle would have been centered on rwy22 (between the (II) on the ND, assuming it had an ND. Most takeoffs fly rwy heading until etc. etc. and your point is well taken above.

God bless them all.

jack

[Huck]

MSNBC is reporting that the short runway was lit by runway edge lights, though it usually was not (new installation?).

No excuse, but might explain why a hurrying crew in the dark and rain might have just turned left onto the first lit runway they saw....

I used to fly RJ's into KLEX for ASA, and I know many Comair pilots. Trust me, this is no slip-shod operation. If it can happen at Comair, it can happen anywhere.

[Snakum]

How about condolences and leave it at that and let the professionals investigate.

How about not.

Every single time an accident happens there's always some 'kin idgit screaming "Leave it to the NTSB/FAA/The Beaver!" knowing full well there will be a hundred pages of discussion and even speculation, because THAT'S WHAT PILOTS DO! Along with just about every other profession that has it's dangerous moments. Ship's crews do the same thing when there is a mishap. That's how we learn. In fact, this recent accident has driven home something I have been trained to do before any departure or arrival, and that is set the HSI to the landing/departing runway and the heading bug to the assigned/initial vector, even in severe clear daylight flying.

I used to question why ... now I know why. We discuss ... we learn. If you don't want to hear speculation after a crash you need to stay off the internet, chief.

[FIRESYSOK]

Originally Posted by noullet

Good technique. Also, if an FMC was aboard, & I don't know if the CRJ-200 ER has one or not, KLEX would have been entered with rwy 22, the A/C triangle would have been centered on rwy22 (between the (II) on the ND, assuming it had an ND.

Yes it has an FMS and ND, however once in takeoff position, activation of the TOGA bars will "runway update" the FMS and is the equivalent of telling the FMS that you are on the preprogammed runway and you wish to update FMS position to that point. The addition of a GPS sensor will mitigate an incorrect update, but it will be several seconds before the GPS can correct the real aircraft position.

Translation- if you tell the FMS you're on the correct runway, and really you're not, it could be 5-10 seconds before the GPS can correct it.

The FMS in the CRJ is not a good situational awareness tool when on the airport.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

Xeque
A final thought. If (as has been suggested but not confirmed) they were cleared to depart from the intersection then wouldn't a fully lit runway 22 have been visible to both pilots at their 10 o'clock?

…. I’m on the other side of the Pacific …. Never been to Kentucky …. But I have spent some years in regional towers ….. another coupla’ questions for those with familiarity …. Is 22 lit with ‘directional’ runway edge lighting?? …. The ones we have are not ‘clearly’ visible if viewing from a side angle (light beam obviously concentrated in the approach direction)! …. another question ….. someone early on mentioned taxiway works and resurfacing …. were the taxiways between the 26 threshold and the 22 threshold re-marked and/or closed?? …..

Huck
MSNBC is reporting that the short runway was lit by runway edge lights, though it usually was not (new installation?).

….was this why the crossing 26 was lit (for taxiing purposes) ….had 26 been lit for another aircraft movement ……. would the edge lighting of 26 been the most visually prominent to the CRJ crew? ….. could they have seen the side glow from directional’s on 22(if that’s what they are) in early morning conditions …..
.

captjns
If the tower was manned, and I beleive it were... what were they during this time????

…. could be any number of things ….. based on the information provided on this thread (so it might be completely wrong) ..
.
…. the picture I have …. the jet taxiing as expected … turns left onto 26 (might have already been cleared for take-off 22) ….. how long (from a glance at an aircraft at taxiing speed) …. would you have to look away for (co-ord or any number of other tasks) to not readily see the subsequent and unexpected continued acceleration during a Take-off attempt???? …. I have no idea how the tower is physically situated and what the tower controller might see ??? …… these are just questions in my mind … few if any of these musing might be reasonable or relevant!!!
.
…. Holes in the ‘swiss cheese’ either way I guess …… … a terrible tragedy
.
… my thoughts are with the ATC/S, the FO …. and those left behind …

[Dream Land]

I can definitely can see that with the taxiway changes (see PDF @ post #6 compared with picture @ post #27) there might be a bit of confusion, especially if both runways were illuminated, taxiing at night with a short taxi, copying clearances and finishing checklists etc., easy mistake at that time of day.

D.L.

[Two's in]

Very seldom, if ever, are aircraft accidents caused by a single, isolated event. They are invariably the result of a chain of events that conspire to eventually cause the accident. Flight Safety initiatives and Airline Operations are intended to leverage the intellectual capital and experience acquired through others misfortunes over the years, by identifying the events or sequences that ultimately lead to accidents. SOP's, Checklists, Airfield Markings, Currency, Rest Periods, Maintenance are some of the weapons we have in our armory to prevent accidents, but being human allows us to circumvent those preventative measures. Sadly, this accident will prove to be no different to many others in that the "chain" could have been broken at a number of points, but it wasn't, and the accident occurred.

Understanding “how” the accident occurred now seems to have been largely answered, and this is crucial in ensuring that flight crews are made aware of the circumstances pertinent to this event in the shortest possible time, to avoid any repetition of those circumstances. Although it is clearly distressing, as some on this board have indicated, it is an essential part of the initial investigation to establish how the accident occurred in the shortest possible time. Grieving and condolences do not prevent further accidents, knowledge and awareness do.

Having determined the “how”, it now falls to the authorities to fully determine the "why". This is where every aspect and failure that led to the causal chain will be identified and not surprisingly, this takes a great deal of time and effort. It will be some time before the exact sequence of events is known, and some may never come to light. The point of all this is to reiterate that attempting to take off on Runway 26 was just the final act, in an as yet unknown sequence of events.

This is where the great media circus stumbles. In this age of instant gratification and instant answers, they simply do not have the mental capacity to understand a formal process that might take a year or two to complete. That is why they speculate and create their own facts around these cases. Long drawn out inquiries do not sell papers or generate viewing figures, but thankfully the media tire easily and will soon be distracted by something else, leaving the rest of us to get on without them.

The passengers and crew of Flight 5191 deserve our thoughts and prayers, but future passengers and crew equally deserve a full understanding of what went wrong and how to avoid similar events in future.

[Frank Brewer]

<< The passengers and crew of Flight 5191 deserve our thoughts and prayers, >>

Amen

[Airbubba]

August 28, 2006

Airport's Taxi Route Change Before Crash

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 1:16 p.m. ET

LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) -- The taxi route for commercial jets using Blue Grass Airport's main runway was altered a week before Comair Flight 5191 took the wrong runway and crashed, killing all but one of the 50 people aboard, the airport's director said Monday.

Both the old and new taxiways cross over the shorter general aviation runway where the commuter jet tried to take off early Sunday, Blue Grass Airport Executive Director Michael Gobb told The Associated Press.

The runway repaving was completed late on the previous Sunday, Gobb said. It wasn't clear if the Comair pilots aboard Flight 5191 had been there since the change. Comair operates that regular 6 a.m. weekend flight to Atlanta from Lexington, but another commuter airline takes over that commute during the week.

''It's slightly different than it used to be,'' said Charlie Monette, president of Aero-Tech flight school based at the airport. ''Could there have been some confusion associated with that? That's certainly a possibility.''...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/A...cky-Crash.html

[BTSM]

Maybe the appalling RT discipline used by many American pilots is to blame.

It is a case of who can "out cool" eachother with the trendiest replies.

If the take off clearance (with runway) had been read back as opposed to just " Roger", or "Rolling", or "cleared to go" then maybe this would not have happened.

[PaperTiger]

Originally Posted by BTSM

Maybe the appalling RT discipline used by many American pilots is to blame.
It is a case of who can "out cool" eachother with the trendiest replies.
If the take off clearance (with runway) had been read back as opposed to just " Roger", or "Rolling", or "cleared to go" then maybe this would not have happened.

Cr@p. If you THINK you're on 22 when you aren't, no amount of "proper" readbacks would have made the slightest difference.

Nobody in their right mind is suggesting they deliberately decided to use 26, surely.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

..... do we know 22 was not readback?
.
.... even if it was ....... IMHO it would not have made much difference (assuming the crew 'thought' they were rolling 22) ..

[rhovsquared]

I'm just wondering, because someone mention the HSI/FMS setup, How come there were no checks to assure that the RWY is Correct/departure correct?. IMHO sounds like fatigue.

what a terrible accident, gives me pause, no one is above error; experienced flight crew ligned up on wrong RWY .

My heart goes out to the victims, May the FO be Well,
rhov

[HowlingWind]

NTSB: Short runway in jet crash had no lights

It probably provides more questions than answers, but a NY Times report now quotes the NTSB as saying that 26 was equipped with lights, but that they were inop at the time.

Early CVR transcripts show an apparently normal preflight, "but then discrepancies over planning and the eventual course of action emerged."

NTSB states there was one person on duty in the tower at the time, normal ops for KLEX.

Link to NY Times Story

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

... hazy conditions? ... what was the Vis/RVR? .... early morning light?!?!
.
.... suppose it must have been light enough for the crew to 'think' it was useable?!?!

[Airbubba]

Does anyone know if these pilots were graduates of the COMAIR academy?

The captain was a graduate of the Comair Academy, now the Delta Connection Academy, according to this article:

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news...0828pilot.html

He was also a Rutgers graduate with a degree in economics.

There was an AirTran pilot onboard, not sure if he was in the cockpit at the time of the crash.

Audio of today's noon NTSB press conference is posted here:

http://multimedia.realcities.com/ram...erenceEdit.mp3

[daz211]

passenger list (lost lives)

_Capt. Jeffrey Adam Clay of Burlington, Ky., hired by Comair in 1999.

_Kelly J. Heyer, 27, of Cincinnati, flight attendant hired by Comair in 2004.

_Jon Hooker, 27, of London, Ky., a newlywed leaving on his honeymoon, according to his former baseball coach at the University of Kentucky, Keith Madison.

_Scarlett Parsley, 23, of London, Ky., who had married Hooker in a fairy tale ceremony Saturday, according to Madison and other friends.

_Mike Finley, 52, of Corbin, Ky., owner of Finley Fun Center, according to his son, David Taylor.

_Charles Lykins of Naples, Fla., according to friend Paul Richardson of Winchester, Ky.

_Les Morris of Lexington, Ky., according to son-in-law Rick Queen.

_Larry Turner of Lexington, Ky., associate Dean for University of Kentucky Extension and Director of Cooperative Extension Service, according to the university.

_Pat Smith, 58, a member of Habitat for Humanity International's board of directors, according to Habitat for Humanity.

_George Brunacini, of Albuquerque, N.M., owner of Bona Terra Farms in Georgetown, Ky., according to a family member who didn't want to be identified.

_Jeff Williams, 49, a horse trainer working at Thoroughbred Training Center in Lexington, Ky., according to his brother Kim.

_Dan Mallory, 55, of Bourbon County, Ky., who ran Meadow Haven Farm, according to his wife.

_Judy Ann Rains, of Richmond, Ky., according to an unidentified family member.

_Paige Winters, 16, of Leawood, Kan., according to her mother, Joan Winters.

_Thomas Fahey, 26, of Leawood, Kan., according to his father, Kevin Fahey.

_Carole Bizzack, 64, of Lexington, Ky., wife of an Eastern Kentucky University Regent, according to university spokesman Marc Whitt.

_Marcie Thomason, 25, of Washington, D.C., daughter of Bill Thomason, administrative manager of Mill Ridge Farm in Lexington, Ky., according to Chuck Wolfe, spokesman for the state Environmental and Public Protection Cabinet.

_Homer Combs Sr. of Lexington, Ky., vice president of Systems Design Group, according to the company.

_Diane Combs of Lexington, Ky., wife of Homer Combs and an employee of Systems Design Group, according to the company.

_C.W. Fortney II, an Air Tran pilot from Stanton, Ky., according to Air Tran.

[SpringbokCapt]

I have got to tell you guys that as a capt for Comair, this is a very uneasy time for us and reading through some of the speculations here is very diffucult to take it all in. Comair training is exceptionally meticulous and highly detailed. I find it hard to believe that this was any kind of training or procedure error. I believe that there are a lot of factors here to the eventual accident and i am sure that it will all be brought to light very soon. I hope that all of you out there can support us. I pray for all those souls on board.

[Sobelena]

Whilst not detracting from the sentiments you express SpringbokCaptain, for those not in the know, I would venture to suppose that you work for Comair, South Africa, an entirely different airline to the U.S. Comair.