Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With that runway layout, and at night, with 20/20 hindsight it is quite easy to visualize howthese poor guys lined up with 26 rather than 22. With the recorders recovered, we should soon get some hard facts from the Agencies.
But for the Grace of God...
But for the Grace of God...
Join Date: May 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Outbound taxy clearances in USA
Early days for sure but one possible area for examination and possible review of SOPS - IF indeed they took the first runway they came to is this - the FAA for an outbound taxy clearance do not issue hold short instructions of any intermediate - i.e. if they were cleared to taxy to RW 22 via "Alpha" they would not be told to hold short of 26, or cleared to cross runway 26 etc, which could serve as a very appropriate reminder that there is more than one runway out there. This seems to be exclusive to the USA/FAA - I loathe it because I am wanting to specifically hear that I am cleared to cross runway "XX" etc. and they get a bit arsy if I ask for specific crossing authorisation.
Awfully sad day.
OH
Awfully sad day.
OH
Last edited by Oilhead; 27th Aug 2006 at 20:09. Reason: CRAP SPELLER
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From a meteorologist in Lexington KY posted on another board:
Bolding mine.
No fog.. no thunderstorms (weak shower .01)... weather was not a factor.
The problem is changes were just made this week at the arport as a major repaving operation wrapped up Monday. Changes to the taxi lanes will likely play a huge factor.
Again... weather does not look to have played a role.
The problem is changes were just made this week at the arport as a major repaving operation wrapped up Monday. Changes to the taxi lanes will likely play a huge factor.
Again... weather does not look to have played a role.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Wet Coast
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'Assuming' that speculation that 22 was used and not 26 is correct, then yes why indeed, however I am not at all convinced that there are not more contributing factors, only time will tell, and until then, endless and possibly unfounded speculation may just be a rather unpleasant blight against the crew.
In 1993, the pilot of an air carrier filed a report with the NASA ASRS (aviation safety reporting system) after nearly departing from runway 26 when instructed to depart from runway 22 at Lexington. The report reads: "Aircraft was cleared for immediate takeoff (traffic was inside the marker) on runway 22 at KLEX. We taxied onto the runway and told tower we needed a moment to check our departure routing with our weather radar (storms were in the area, raining at the airport). We realized our heading was not correct for our assigned runway and at that moment, tower called us to cancel the takeoff clearance because we were lined up on runway 26. We taxied clear and then held short of runway 22 for landing traffic. We took off on runway 22 and proceedd without incident. Possible contributing factors were poor visibbility and weather (rain. Confusing runway intersection and tower's request for an immediate takeoff. Suggest possible warning page (similar to Houston Hobby) to clarify multiple runway ends."
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Wet Coast
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is LEX so busy that it actually needs two runways just 40deg apart ?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 739
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CNN is reporting that ground radar data confirms that the aircraft used runway 26 for takeoff instead of 22. They are also reporting that the pilots completed their last flight into KLEX just after midnight, which left them very little time to get to the hotel and sleep, and then get up and prepare for a 6am flight.
Fatigue could easily explain the wrong choice of runway for takeoff.
Fatigue could easily explain the wrong choice of runway for takeoff.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
possible factors so far :
crew fatigue ( 4 hours rest or less ?)
bad visibilty ?
new taxiway markings ?
Confusing ( or not standard ) R/T ?
Confusing layout ?
Commercial pressure ?
Should we abandon the " who" made the error but rather look into a whole system that put a crew in this situation ?
crew fatigue ( 4 hours rest or less ?)
bad visibilty ?
new taxiway markings ?
Confusing ( or not standard ) R/T ?
Confusing layout ?
Commercial pressure ?
Should we abandon the " who" made the error but rather look into a whole system that put a crew in this situation ?
If this is any help, from the airnav.com website details of the runways.
Runway 22:
Dimensions: 7003 x 150 ft. / 2135 x 46 m
Surface: asphalt/grooved, in good condition
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel: 140000 lbs
Double wheel: 169000 lbs
Double tandem: 275000 lbs
Runway edge lights: high intensity
Runway 26:
Dimensions: 3500 x 75 ft. / 1067 x 23 m
Surface: asphalt/concrete, in poor condition
CONC IS SEVERELY CRACKED.
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel: 12500 lbs
Runway edge lights: medium intensity
MIRL RY 08/26 OTS INDEFLY.
Remarks:
RY 08/26 DAYTIME VMC USE ONLY.
22 has centreline lights, 26 apparently does not.
God bless them all.
Runway 22:
Dimensions: 7003 x 150 ft. / 2135 x 46 m
Surface: asphalt/grooved, in good condition
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel: 140000 lbs
Double wheel: 169000 lbs
Double tandem: 275000 lbs
Runway edge lights: high intensity
Runway 26:
Dimensions: 3500 x 75 ft. / 1067 x 23 m
Surface: asphalt/concrete, in poor condition
CONC IS SEVERELY CRACKED.
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel: 12500 lbs
Runway edge lights: medium intensity
MIRL RY 08/26 OTS INDEFLY.
Remarks:
RY 08/26 DAYTIME VMC USE ONLY.
22 has centreline lights, 26 apparently does not.
God bless them all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This aircraft took off from rwy26 folks. Early views from a newscopter camera pointed straight down rwy26 showed tree limb damage at approx. 25ft. high at the end of 26. Also seen was impact point to final resting place ground skid about 150 yds. along rwy26 heading. The big question is why. Precip. cell over airport between 6:07 and 6:10 and still dark. Renovation to rwy22 added displaced threshold and change to taxiway. Taxi from Charlie brings you right over numbers 26 to left turn to A5 to 22, slightly more left and you're lined up with 26. The hold short line at the departure end of 26 is not easily visible from the tower.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: by the river
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Data from the source
Comair News Site
Flight Safety - you could be right or wrong on that - but its a conclusion - and its much too early for speculation. Let the FAA draw the conclusions, and lets try and avoid feeding the panic and rumour mills.
Flight Safety - you could be right or wrong on that - but its a conclusion - and its much too early for speculation. Let the FAA draw the conclusions, and lets try and avoid feeding the panic and rumour mills.
Trash du Blanc
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: KBHM
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Local news photos of site here:
http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/fea...riesindex.html
Photo #4 clearly shows tire marks in the grass off 26....
http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/fea...riesindex.html
Photo #4 clearly shows tire marks in the grass off 26....
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If this crew mistakenly tried to take off from a 3500 foot runway instead of the 7000 foot runway, then we need to understand why a competent and qualified crew made such an error. Short night of sleep, pre-dawn darkness, short taxi while blasting through the checklist... all possible factors. I heard (not confirmed!) that there was an AirTran pilot in the jumpseat... another potential distraction.
At some point during the t/o roll, options disappeared. Far too fast to abort the attempt without a high speed exit off the end of the runway, it would appear that a minimum airspeed rotation might have occurred. Unfortunately, as most of us can recall, they call that part of the power curve the "coffin corner"... raise the nose and you'll stall, lower the nose to gain airspeed and you'll settle into the terrain.
This accident, IF in fact caused by attempted t/o on a 3500 general aviation runway, will raise the issues of pilot fatigue and CRM to the forefront.
At some point during the t/o roll, options disappeared. Far too fast to abort the attempt without a high speed exit off the end of the runway, it would appear that a minimum airspeed rotation might have occurred. Unfortunately, as most of us can recall, they call that part of the power curve the "coffin corner"... raise the nose and you'll stall, lower the nose to gain airspeed and you'll settle into the terrain.
This accident, IF in fact caused by attempted t/o on a 3500 general aviation runway, will raise the issues of pilot fatigue and CRM to the forefront.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a map of the crash site at
http://www.kentucky.com/multimedia/k...mair-crash.gif
http://www.kentucky.com/multimedia/k...mair-crash.gif
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Age: 61
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a technique that I have used for years;
When taxiing out to the assigned runway I always put my heading bug on the assigned rwy heading. Furthermore, if I have no immediate use for the CDI I also align it with runway heading, I also find this technique usefull for aligning with the correct runway on circling approaches. Not saying that I couldn't line up on the wrong runway, but that's all the more reason to use every resource available.
When taxiing out to the assigned runway I always put my heading bug on the assigned rwy heading. Furthermore, if I have no immediate use for the CDI I also align it with runway heading, I also find this technique usefull for aligning with the correct runway on circling approaches. Not saying that I couldn't line up on the wrong runway, but that's all the more reason to use every resource available.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Astonishing safety record
No doubt we'll soon know the actual causes of this tragedy and, hopefully, the human factors which contributed to it. Then, as others have said, we can all learn from them.
In the meantime, I was astonished to read on another website that "this is the worst US airline accident for nearly five years." Given the high-pressure operating environment in the USA, with high-density traffic and countless external pressures, I am amazed that there are so few major accidents. So, after you professionals have finished thinking "there but for the Grace of God go I", you should all give yourselves a pat on the back for contributing this excellent record of air safety in recent years.
None of this is meant to encourage complacency, of course, as all transport professionals recognise that the next major incident may happen as soon as their next trip or duty.
Good luck!
In the meantime, I was astonished to read on another website that "this is the worst US airline accident for nearly five years." Given the high-pressure operating environment in the USA, with high-density traffic and countless external pressures, I am amazed that there are so few major accidents. So, after you professionals have finished thinking "there but for the Grace of God go I", you should all give yourselves a pat on the back for contributing this excellent record of air safety in recent years.
None of this is meant to encourage complacency, of course, as all transport professionals recognise that the next major incident may happen as soon as their next trip or duty.
Good luck!
Last edited by emp18; 28th Aug 2006 at 05:52.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In this modern age of the glass cockpits, which this CRJ, I just have to ask how one could take off on the wrong runway if the extended center line is not even remotely close to the runway actually used, let alone the heading bug set to the the same runway, that is of course this were the case?