Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
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A number of people have wondered how it was possible to line up on the wrong runway.
I read on another forum that runway 22 dips towards the SW; so when lining up it looks shorter than it is because half of it is hidden from view.
Similarly 26 has a shoulder so doesn't look any narrower. In the semi-light of the morning there would therefore be few visual clues that a mistake had been made. The only clue would have been the heading indicator.
I am surprised ATC didn't notice though.
I read on another forum that runway 22 dips towards the SW; so when lining up it looks shorter than it is because half of it is hidden from view.
Similarly 26 has a shoulder so doesn't look any narrower. In the semi-light of the morning there would therefore be few visual clues that a mistake had been made. The only clue would have been the heading indicator.
I am surprised ATC didn't notice though.
Take me downwind
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There was a report on Fox News last night regarding possible understaffing in the tower. They spoke to the Governor of Kentucky (why they asked him this question, I don't know) and he said it would be investigated.
Perhaps it was just journo mumbo crap trying to fill time and raise our perceptions of their incompetence.
Best to all,
PE
Perhaps it was just journo mumbo crap trying to fill time and raise our perceptions of their incompetence.
Best to all,
PE
Crash a Blow for Struggling Comair
Monday August 28, 1:01 am ET
By Dan Sewell, AP Business Writer
Fatal Crash of Jet in Kentucky Is Emotional Blow for Comair, Trying to Emerge From Bankruptcy
ERLANGER, Ky. (AP) -- The fatal crash of a Comair regional jet Sunday morning dealt an emotional blow to a commuter airline trying to emerge from bankruptcy.
"These are tough things and it's very difficult," Comair president Don Bornhorst said at a briefing in a hotel near Comair headquarters in northern Kentucky. Choking up at times, Bornhorst said he was "emotionally devastated" and said he's certain all of Comair's 6,400 employees share those feelings.
Bornhorst, a 15-year aviation industry veteran, pledged that the carrier would do all it could to help with the investigation of the crash while also keeping up normal operations.
"We all recognize that we're professionals in an industry that has these risks, and you hope and pray that these things do not happen, but when they do, the team we have at Comair is one that will work through this," said Bornhorst, who was promoted from chief financial officer to president three months ago. "We will continue to offer service to our passengers, we will do it in a certainly safe manner and with the customer service emphasis that we have always had with our flights."
Comair, a Delta Air Lines Inc. subsidiary that offers 850 flights daily to 110 cities, last suffered a crash Jan. 9, 1997, when an Embrarer 120 flying from Cincinnati to Detroit crashed in icy conditions near Monroe, Mich., killing all 29 people on board.
The carrier now flies all Bombardier CRJ's, most of them 50-passenger planes. Its 168-plane fleet also includes some 40-seaters and 70-seaters. The plane that crashed Sunday was a 50-passenger plane Comair said it bought new from Bombardier, a Montreal-based company, in January 2001. Bornhorst said the plane had "a clean maintenance record."
Bombardier has about 1,300 of the regional jets flying for a variety of carriers worldwide.
Like its parent, Atlanta-based Delta, Comair filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in September 2005 and has been restructuring. Both hope to emerge from bankruptcy by next summer.
Comair has been seeking concessions from its unions, and last week reported some progress after two days of negotiations with its flight attendants.
The carrier wants $7.9 million in pay and benefit cuts and work rule changes from its 970 flight attendants. A federal bankruptcy judge in July ruled that the company could void its contract, but Comair has been trying to work out an agreement. Flight attendants had said they would consider job actions if negotiations failed.
Comair earlier reached agreements with its pilots for $17.3 million in cuts and for $1 million from its mechanics, but those deals were contingent on Comair getting $8.9 million in givebacks from flight attendants. Comair met with both of those unions in early August after reducing the amount needed from the flight attendants, but neither Comair nor the unions would discuss their talks.
Comair also had to rebound from a Christmas 2004 holiday weekend debacle, in which a computer system failure forced cancellation of more than 1,000 flights.
Comair was founded in 1977 as a three-plane commuter airline and became a Delta partner in 1984 and a wholly owned subsidiary in 2000.
Delta CEO Gerald Grinstein said Sunday his company was offering Comair any help it needs in the crash aftermath.
Monday August 28, 1:01 am ET
By Dan Sewell, AP Business Writer
Fatal Crash of Jet in Kentucky Is Emotional Blow for Comair, Trying to Emerge From Bankruptcy
ERLANGER, Ky. (AP) -- The fatal crash of a Comair regional jet Sunday morning dealt an emotional blow to a commuter airline trying to emerge from bankruptcy.
"These are tough things and it's very difficult," Comair president Don Bornhorst said at a briefing in a hotel near Comair headquarters in northern Kentucky. Choking up at times, Bornhorst said he was "emotionally devastated" and said he's certain all of Comair's 6,400 employees share those feelings.
Bornhorst, a 15-year aviation industry veteran, pledged that the carrier would do all it could to help with the investigation of the crash while also keeping up normal operations.
"We all recognize that we're professionals in an industry that has these risks, and you hope and pray that these things do not happen, but when they do, the team we have at Comair is one that will work through this," said Bornhorst, who was promoted from chief financial officer to president three months ago. "We will continue to offer service to our passengers, we will do it in a certainly safe manner and with the customer service emphasis that we have always had with our flights."
Comair, a Delta Air Lines Inc. subsidiary that offers 850 flights daily to 110 cities, last suffered a crash Jan. 9, 1997, when an Embrarer 120 flying from Cincinnati to Detroit crashed in icy conditions near Monroe, Mich., killing all 29 people on board.
The carrier now flies all Bombardier CRJ's, most of them 50-passenger planes. Its 168-plane fleet also includes some 40-seaters and 70-seaters. The plane that crashed Sunday was a 50-passenger plane Comair said it bought new from Bombardier, a Montreal-based company, in January 2001. Bornhorst said the plane had "a clean maintenance record."
Bombardier has about 1,300 of the regional jets flying for a variety of carriers worldwide.
Like its parent, Atlanta-based Delta, Comair filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in September 2005 and has been restructuring. Both hope to emerge from bankruptcy by next summer.
Comair has been seeking concessions from its unions, and last week reported some progress after two days of negotiations with its flight attendants.
The carrier wants $7.9 million in pay and benefit cuts and work rule changes from its 970 flight attendants. A federal bankruptcy judge in July ruled that the company could void its contract, but Comair has been trying to work out an agreement. Flight attendants had said they would consider job actions if negotiations failed.
Comair earlier reached agreements with its pilots for $17.3 million in cuts and for $1 million from its mechanics, but those deals were contingent on Comair getting $8.9 million in givebacks from flight attendants. Comair met with both of those unions in early August after reducing the amount needed from the flight attendants, but neither Comair nor the unions would discuss their talks.
Comair also had to rebound from a Christmas 2004 holiday weekend debacle, in which a computer system failure forced cancellation of more than 1,000 flights.
Comair was founded in 1977 as a three-plane commuter airline and became a Delta partner in 1984 and a wholly owned subsidiary in 2000.
Delta CEO Gerald Grinstein said Sunday his company was offering Comair any help it needs in the crash aftermath.
Pegase Driver
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Have you seen the RWY threshold views from a TWR window at night ? How far some are ? how a rotating beacon can be mixed with other lights ? no to mention perspective view and flat distances at night.
It was said earlier here that the controller on duty is taking this very badly , that I can beleive and understand, and I hope he does not read this.
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There generally would be only one individual working in a control tower of that size at that time of day. It is not the job of the controller to make sure that the pilots line up on the correct runway. As soon as the t/o clearance was given, the controller no doubt had other chores, such as getting a clearance for the next IFR departure etc.
In the US, a taxi clearance to the active runway is permisssion to cross any and all runways along the taxi route.
Perhaps distance/length signage will be added to the bottom of the runway number signage. But as horrible as this accident was, there have been millions of US air carrier operations since the last significant accident, back in November 2001. That is amazing!
In the US, a taxi clearance to the active runway is permisssion to cross any and all runways along the taxi route.
Perhaps distance/length signage will be added to the bottom of the runway number signage. But as horrible as this accident was, there have been millions of US air carrier operations since the last significant accident, back in November 2001. That is amazing!
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for ATC to not visually scan the runway as the plane was cleared for takeoff would be a mistake.
I recall being cleared for takeoff on long runway at KMRY, beautiful day, clear and a million, only plane on airport.
I asked controller if he was sure I was cleared for takeoff...he got quite irate at my question.
the problem was a fuel truck on the runway about 4000 feet from threshold.
HE hadn't even LOOKED at the runway and cleared me for takeoff. KMRY is noted for fog, lucky that day it was clear enough for me to see.
ATC is responsible for seperating all IFR aircraft, and not to scan the runway ( and see, by extension correct runway/aircraft configuration) would be WRONG>
I recall being cleared for takeoff on long runway at KMRY, beautiful day, clear and a million, only plane on airport.
I asked controller if he was sure I was cleared for takeoff...he got quite irate at my question.
the problem was a fuel truck on the runway about 4000 feet from threshold.
HE hadn't even LOOKED at the runway and cleared me for takeoff. KMRY is noted for fog, lucky that day it was clear enough for me to see.
ATC is responsible for seperating all IFR aircraft, and not to scan the runway ( and see, by extension correct runway/aircraft configuration) would be WRONG>
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I think, that it doesn't matter what I think, but what I see is a bunch of armchair pilots babbling about an accident that has so many variables and numerous factors that its idiotic to be even speculating at this point.
How about condolences and leave it at that and let the professionals investigate. At least give the investagators a couple of days to come up with some basic facts.
The main factor in any accident or incident, is that the flight crew did what they did, and accidents are accidents.
Normally accidents are "mistakes" that have or had circumstances resulting in tragic endings, whether is design related, pilot error, etc.
How about condolences and leave it at that and let the professionals investigate. At least give the investagators a couple of days to come up with some basic facts.
The main factor in any accident or incident, is that the flight crew did what they did, and accidents are accidents.
Normally accidents are "mistakes" that have or had circumstances resulting in tragic endings, whether is design related, pilot error, etc.
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thanks
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Just picked up an old Jepp (mid-2000) and RWY 08-26 is shown there as 150 feet wide, so physically both runways are same width. It is just markings applied at some stage made it more narrow. So it could be one of the factors lead to mistake...
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mmh, DFW authorized a MD80 for take off when I was at the intersection.
the pilot said:"and what about the plane in the middle of the runway??"...
I am very surprised that 2 pilots did such mistakes...
the pilot said:"and what about the plane in the middle of the runway??"...
I am very surprised that 2 pilots did such mistakes...
Pegase Driver
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Again, if you have the time, if it is CAVOK, if you can see the runway from where you are, or if you have a Surface Ground Movement radar , if it works, then yes, otherwise not feasable, period. Wrong, perhaps but a fact.
At least in Europe it works like this.
----------------------------------------------
Planeenglish : sorry, read too fast, did not see the humor. I owe you one ! But I do hope the guys in LEX have access to the CISM program .
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The controller could have done his job properly and cleared the aircraft for takeoff long before it reached either runway. In this scenario it would be very hard to blame the controller for missing the fact that the aircraft 'took the wrong turn'.
We do not know the details so the least we can do is to keep an open mind.
We do not know the details so the least we can do is to keep an open mind.
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2. It is the responsibility of the crew to understand this procedure and have thoroughly briefed and executed the taxi.
3. If a takeoff clearance has been issued prior to the aircraft reaching the approach end, it is understandable that a controller may not notice the incorrect line-up, especially with the runway ends being as close as they were.
4. In the CRJ aircraft, the FMS CDI does not necessarily align with the runway HDG or track when
in position for takeoff. It merely points to the next fix, which usually is in a direction away from the runway threshold. The FMS runway selection merely facilitates a "runway update" for position updating. UNLESS an "off the runway" SID has been programmed, in which case the alignment is to the runway heading. KLEX does not use this type of procedure.
5. A tragic series of mistakes, RIP and may God bless.
Last edited by FIRESYSOK; 28th Aug 2006 at 13:28.
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Similiar Incident at KBDL years ago
B-737 was cleared for TO on RW 33, they went off on RW 1. It was at night, both RWs come together at that point. They got off OK and then noticed the FMS making a hard turn.
It could have been a disaster as they sometimes they park planes on RW 1.
Whaterever happended to cross referencing your DG to the RW heading as you line up?
It could have been a disaster as they sometimes they park planes on RW 1.
Whaterever happended to cross referencing your DG to the RW heading as you line up?
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Whaterever happended to cross referencing your DG to the RW heading as you line up?
I asked this question earlier but no-one answered me.