Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff
Join Date: May 2004
Location: south east
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I resent having to take my shoes off too for the record and traipse on a dirty unhygenic carpet.
And yes removing a bottle of ribena from a tanker driver is ridiculous also. I'd be more worried about the contents of his tanker wouldn't you ?
The point is the pilots are perfectly capable of bringing down an aeroplane without having to take a device on board.
Fine, screen our flight case and put us through a metal detector but the rest is nonsense. There is even an axe on the flight deck which the pilots have access to.
Puts it all in perspective doesn't it ?
Regards
Orion Man
And yes removing a bottle of ribena from a tanker driver is ridiculous also. I'd be more worried about the contents of his tanker wouldn't you ?
The point is the pilots are perfectly capable of bringing down an aeroplane without having to take a device on board.
Fine, screen our flight case and put us through a metal detector but the rest is nonsense. There is even an axe on the flight deck which the pilots have access to.
Puts it all in perspective doesn't it ?
Regards
Orion Man
Aviator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norveg
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, yes and yes.
Another example of our excellent security measures;
As Copenhagen is considered "contaminated" (maybe they allow tabasco on board?), our passengers have to go through security at their destinaiton (in this case TRF in Norway). Fair enough, since they enter the CSRA through tax free shops, transit halls etc. Then for the interesting part; The crew, having parked the aircraft on a remote stand, leave all our belongings on board the aircraft, go inside the terminal to be scanned and checked (for tabasco jalapeņos and sambal oelek - that **** is DANGEROUS!), and then we can return to our aircraft to do a security check/search. Because the aircraft is also contaminated... We search our own bags to see if we brought any bombs on board. We then take the bombs, knifes and RPGs (which we had forgotten all about by this time) and hand them over to our explosive ordnance demolition crew. They then tow the aircraft back to the normal stand. Way to go guys. Cleverly thought out way of wasting time and money...
So, to recap; yes, yes and yes.
Another example of our excellent security measures;
As Copenhagen is considered "contaminated" (maybe they allow tabasco on board?), our passengers have to go through security at their destinaiton (in this case TRF in Norway). Fair enough, since they enter the CSRA through tax free shops, transit halls etc. Then for the interesting part; The crew, having parked the aircraft on a remote stand, leave all our belongings on board the aircraft, go inside the terminal to be scanned and checked (for tabasco jalapeņos and sambal oelek - that **** is DANGEROUS!), and then we can return to our aircraft to do a security check/search. Because the aircraft is also contaminated... We search our own bags to see if we brought any bombs on board. We then take the bombs, knifes and RPGs (which we had forgotten all about by this time) and hand them over to our explosive ordnance demolition crew. They then tow the aircraft back to the normal stand. Way to go guys. Cleverly thought out way of wasting time and money...
So, to recap; yes, yes and yes.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Orion Man
I agree that the ban on toothpaste (and indeed Ribena) is quite ridulous. However, if there is a genuine risk that a toothpaste tube could contain components for a bomb, which a pilot could pass on to someone else, is there any justification in allowing a pilot to carry that item through security?
Yes, pilots do have the capability to cause mayhem. However, it would inevitably be a suicide mission (right?), whereas an item carried through secirity could equip someone else to act on another plane. I suspect (though I don't know) that this is the issue. We know that there is very little we can actually do to prevent determined suicide bombers, but there is plenty that can be done to prevent (or at least make life difficult for) those who wish to perpetrate crimes without losing their own.
The bottle carried by the tanker driver - again, surely this is is risk management? Of course the fuel can be used as an explosive, but there is little that can be done about that - aircraft need fuel. However, the bottle could carry components for a liquid explosive, and that risk can be reduced.
I stress two things:
1. I don't agree at all with the current rules on prohibited items - they are a nonsense compared with the actual threat posed;
2. But, if they are to be applied, I think that there is some logic in risk management terms in applying them to everyone passing through the security cordon.
Dr Dave
I agree that the ban on toothpaste (and indeed Ribena) is quite ridulous. However, if there is a genuine risk that a toothpaste tube could contain components for a bomb, which a pilot could pass on to someone else, is there any justification in allowing a pilot to carry that item through security?
Yes, pilots do have the capability to cause mayhem. However, it would inevitably be a suicide mission (right?), whereas an item carried through secirity could equip someone else to act on another plane. I suspect (though I don't know) that this is the issue. We know that there is very little we can actually do to prevent determined suicide bombers, but there is plenty that can be done to prevent (or at least make life difficult for) those who wish to perpetrate crimes without losing their own.
The bottle carried by the tanker driver - again, surely this is is risk management? Of course the fuel can be used as an explosive, but there is little that can be done about that - aircraft need fuel. However, the bottle could carry components for a liquid explosive, and that risk can be reduced.
I stress two things:
1. I don't agree at all with the current rules on prohibited items - they are a nonsense compared with the actual threat posed;
2. But, if they are to be applied, I think that there is some logic in risk management terms in applying them to everyone passing through the security cordon.
Dr Dave
Join Date: May 2004
Location: south east
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dr Dave,
You are starting to come up with some rather obscure what/if scenarios. How many pilots have you heard of that have assisted or committed acts of terrorism ? I can think of just one - the Russian Captain some years ago that committed suicide by crashing his aircraft with passengers on board. He didn't need a device to do so.
Have you thought about the shops selling liquids once you have passed security may have been infiltrated by terrorists ? You can come up with no end of potential scenarios.
Aviation, train travel, driving a car etc will never be totally fool-proof. All we are asking for is a little common sense.
Regards
Orion Man
You are starting to come up with some rather obscure what/if scenarios. How many pilots have you heard of that have assisted or committed acts of terrorism ? I can think of just one - the Russian Captain some years ago that committed suicide by crashing his aircraft with passengers on board. He didn't need a device to do so.
Have you thought about the shops selling liquids once you have passed security may have been infiltrated by terrorists ? You can come up with no end of potential scenarios.
Aviation, train travel, driving a car etc will never be totally fool-proof. All we are asking for is a little common sense.
Regards
Orion Man
Aviator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norveg
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Besides; pilots have more vested in the safety of their flight than do the security personnell still left ON GROUND. We're up there - they're still on Terra Firma. If anyone should be searched, it's the so-called security people. What kind of admission tests or thorough psychological profiles do they have to pass in order to get their jobs? Problably next to zero caompared to us pilots...
As I see it, it's one-nil for the terrorists. They've got us all running scared and accusing each other of being a threat to society.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: N59W30
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
have to say the ponti's in LHR securiy have given me a hard time recently....why? the have rifled my bag every time including taking pages out of plastic sheets. i look at them and my body language screams ars@holes..... what are they trying to achieve and I am in charge of a 85 ton jet full of juice outside the door. ....pathetic.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read all these pilots - why should i take my shoes etc threads along with we have the axe etc. Well here's a thought.
Behind you in the security queue is the unsung heroe the lonely engineer. he goes through the same performance not once but probably 10 times a shift. He has no food airside due to security, he works for 12 hours on yor jets with no food/drink etc. Still feel safe?
why take his shoes off? ever weighed up his tool box? why does he need to smuggle a knife in with a box full of stanley knives etc but he carnt go to the chinky for his tea! Do you know of a reestaurant open in your average airport at 3am ? especially mid winter ?
And i will leave you with a thought. you worry about your shoes and argue you can bring the jet down. Well as you sleep at the dark end of the ramp is the lonely engineer. He can spend 12 hrs undoing bits on the jet and guarntee when you call rotate you dont and go straight off the end. But does anyone ever query what we do ? No. they are more worried about us bringing gravy in on our chips. The world is barking !
So remember you have one row on your way in then get fed and watered. there are others that have the performance day in day out multiple time with no food or water etc. dont forget the tug drivers, bag lads,dispatchers and the deadly engineer !!
Behind you in the security queue is the unsung heroe the lonely engineer. he goes through the same performance not once but probably 10 times a shift. He has no food airside due to security, he works for 12 hours on yor jets with no food/drink etc. Still feel safe?
why take his shoes off? ever weighed up his tool box? why does he need to smuggle a knife in with a box full of stanley knives etc but he carnt go to the chinky for his tea! Do you know of a reestaurant open in your average airport at 3am ? especially mid winter ?
And i will leave you with a thought. you worry about your shoes and argue you can bring the jet down. Well as you sleep at the dark end of the ramp is the lonely engineer. He can spend 12 hrs undoing bits on the jet and guarntee when you call rotate you dont and go straight off the end. But does anyone ever query what we do ? No. they are more worried about us bringing gravy in on our chips. The world is barking !
So remember you have one row on your way in then get fed and watered. there are others that have the performance day in day out multiple time with no food or water etc. dont forget the tug drivers, bag lads,dispatchers and the deadly engineer !!
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Up in the air
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will be transiting through LHR on BA in a few days to recover an aircraft stuck in Africa. Am flight crew but deadheading and will be in uniform, as is our company policy. Do not work for BA.
Anything new that I should know about carry-on baggage? Hope to be bringing one small briefcase sized bag onboard with a laptop & charger, licenses, passport, captains float, one Jepps book and charts and hopefully a few magazines and book to read. Nothing liquid or sharp (other than my wit, which they cannot take from me) or on the prohibited list.
Anything new that I should know about carry-on baggage? Hope to be bringing one small briefcase sized bag onboard with a laptop & charger, licenses, passport, captains float, one Jepps book and charts and hopefully a few magazines and book to read. Nothing liquid or sharp (other than my wit, which they cannot take from me) or on the prohibited list.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Come on chaps, get real. The one thing that we do know is that terrorists are devious. They have gone to enormous ends to get their plots to work. So, is it really out of the question that one of the groups wouldn't put forward a follower to fly for, say, a Middle Eastern airline so that they can act in exactly this way? If pilots were not subject to the same security as everyone else then this would be potentially successful, surely?
Of course, that pilot could take over the aircraft and commit another 9-11. However, aircraft need pilots, so there is little that can actually be done about that threat beyond the obvious. However, the scenario that I outlined, which is surely not so far-fetched given the nature of other atrocities, can be eliminated, and thus there is some logic in so-doing.
I stress that I do not agree with the current security arrangements - the risk of being killed in a terrorist incident in the UK in the last five years is about 1:5 million, which is tiny compared with other risks, and we are losing a huge amount to try to mitigate this, which is a nonsense. However, once a decision has been made that screening is necessary there is no logic in allowing a particular group to avoid it en mass, from a risk management perspective at least.
Of course, that pilot could take over the aircraft and commit another 9-11. However, aircraft need pilots, so there is little that can actually be done about that threat beyond the obvious. However, the scenario that I outlined, which is surely not so far-fetched given the nature of other atrocities, can be eliminated, and thus there is some logic in so-doing.
I stress that I do not agree with the current security arrangements - the risk of being killed in a terrorist incident in the UK in the last five years is about 1:5 million, which is tiny compared with other risks, and we are losing a huge amount to try to mitigate this, which is a nonsense. However, once a decision has been made that screening is necessary there is no logic in allowing a particular group to avoid it en mass, from a risk management perspective at least.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont forget the security men/women (noted at man) push in at front of the queue - were on duty we need to get through. who isnt? were dont all go in on our days off !
they walk through with shoes on not x rayed - were running securit we dont need to.
the best one. they take there meals through and put them below the desk (also caught them taking tins of soup and putting the under there desks not in the bins) when questioned - were not airside ! I though the moment you swipe your card and go through the door your airside? not when you physically set foot on the ramp?
I wont say which desk at man this is - I'm sure most of you charter guys will reconise it in the glass type terminal !
they walk through with shoes on not x rayed - were running securit we dont need to.
the best one. they take there meals through and put them below the desk (also caught them taking tins of soup and putting the under there desks not in the bins) when questioned - were not airside ! I though the moment you swipe your card and go through the door your airside? not when you physically set foot on the ramp?
I wont say which desk at man this is - I'm sure most of you charter guys will reconise it in the glass type terminal !
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My vote is 
- as long as your briefcase fits the size criteria. Otherwise unless you can get your ?handling agent? to pass you through as crew you will need to check it into the hold, in which case I recommend you empty it for safety
- as long as your briefcase fits the size criteria. Otherwise unless you can get your ?handling agent? to pass you through as crew you will need to check it into the hold, in which case I recommend you empty it for safety
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the 747 freighter we regularly carry several tons of flammable liquids and explosives. As many of these items are not allowed on passenger aircraft they are loaded on the main deck so that I have full access to them in flight. However, I'm not allowed access to my tube of toothpaste.
Airclues
Airclues
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on chaps, get real. The one thing that we do know is that terrorists are devious. They have gone to enormous ends to get their plots to work. So, is it really out of the question that one of the groups wouldn't put forward a follower to fly for, say, a Middle Eastern airline so that they can act in exactly this way? If pilots were not subject to the same security as everyone else then this would be potentially successful, surely?
Of course, that pilot could take over the aircraft and commit another 9-11. However, aircraft need pilots, so there is little that can actually be done about that threat beyond the obvious.
Of course, that pilot could take over the aircraft and commit another 9-11. However, aircraft need pilots, so there is little that can actually be done about that threat beyond the obvious.
Dr. Dave, a middle eastern pilot who is a follower and is drafted to the cause will still not need any weapons so ANY amount of screening and/or restrictions will not stop him.
BTW has anyone of the deep-thinkers in UK security acknowledged that most arriving flights from around the worl have contraband in the cabin - can an arriving flight not be a problem???
regards Chico
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Up in the air
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Size matters! It must fit in the new shoe-boxed sized "checking" container - there are oodles of staff pre-checking this sort of stuff just before you go through Security. If it doesn't fit (you can get away with carrying your laptop separately by hand it seems), back to check-in to get the bag put through as hold luggage.
Full details here.
Full details here.
This is the site that BA links to:
https://lfn.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/lfn...ZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew BA to Orlando from LGW two weekends ago and BA have used bits of wood to modify their cabin-baggage-size-checking-things which are dotted around the checkin area so you can see if you can squeeze your carry-on in to those.
I'd highly recommend checking in online as the checkin queues were huge - the bag drop queues were much smaller.
On the day I was there it seemed that handbags were causing many of the delays because the "one piece of carry on" was being strictly enforced - many women desparately trying to shoehorn their handbags into their handluggage etc.
Cellphones, cameras etc. were all OK you just had to switch them on and show they worked.
Incidentally security was equally as tight at Kennedy Space Center Visitors Center...
I'd highly recommend checking in online as the checkin queues were huge - the bag drop queues were much smaller.
On the day I was there it seemed that handbags were causing many of the delays because the "one piece of carry on" was being strictly enforced - many women desparately trying to shoehorn their handbags into their handluggage etc.
Cellphones, cameras etc. were all OK you just had to switch them on and show they worked.
Incidentally security was equally as tight at Kennedy Space Center Visitors Center...
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank goodness other crews are in the same boat!!!!
Past few weeks has been utter frustration at fraggle rock intl airport.
Few days after 10th aug myself and 3 other members of the crew went through the crew channel. My bag went through x-ray next to a similar crew bag. My collegue was pulled aside and was told her entire overnight kit to be confiscated - while my bag was given the ok - it still had the almost same amount of stuff in it, ie toothpaste, deodrant etc etc.
Next time i wasnt so lucky so was informed i could check my crew bag in which i did succesfully and retrieve it at the aircraft steps.
But, alas...the next day i was informed that crew were no longer informed they could do this...only way was to take overnight kit out.
For two weeks we managed having to give up our stuff...but unfortantly ...recently had to nightstop...didnt have any overnight kit resulting in a mad dash to boots in the airport.
Dont mean to sound like a moaner...fully understand that security are only doing their jobs...its just that rules seem to be changing day to day. Some staff will let you take your essential night kit trough...but the next day a collegue wont. It has led in a few delays....especially after heated debates between security and female cabin crew who refused to give up their prized pocessions of expensive make up - would never want to get on the wrong side of them - always the quiet ones you have to look out for.
But defo agree and so do many crews of many airlines ... at our airline all the essentials in our nightstop kit are classed as a must have as part of a duty.....after working 6/7 hours and on the last sector..pax are getting complimentary BO as well as drinks.
Past few weeks has been utter frustration at fraggle rock intl airport.
Few days after 10th aug myself and 3 other members of the crew went through the crew channel. My bag went through x-ray next to a similar crew bag. My collegue was pulled aside and was told her entire overnight kit to be confiscated - while my bag was given the ok - it still had the almost same amount of stuff in it, ie toothpaste, deodrant etc etc.
Next time i wasnt so lucky so was informed i could check my crew bag in which i did succesfully and retrieve it at the aircraft steps.
But, alas...the next day i was informed that crew were no longer informed they could do this...only way was to take overnight kit out.
For two weeks we managed having to give up our stuff...but unfortantly ...recently had to nightstop...didnt have any overnight kit resulting in a mad dash to boots in the airport.
Dont mean to sound like a moaner...fully understand that security are only doing their jobs...its just that rules seem to be changing day to day. Some staff will let you take your essential night kit trough...but the next day a collegue wont. It has led in a few delays....especially after heated debates between security and female cabin crew who refused to give up their prized pocessions of expensive make up - would never want to get on the wrong side of them - always the quiet ones you have to look out for.
But defo agree and so do many crews of many airlines ... at our airline all the essentials in our nightstop kit are classed as a must have as part of a duty.....after working 6/7 hours and on the last sector..pax are getting complimentary BO as well as drinks.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: East Midlands
Age: 84
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Post 810. Link to prohibited and permitted items
The link marked (here) kindly posted in #810 leads to an official BAA dictat on what is and is not permitted in the cabin. There is no mention, one way or the other of, cameras, CD Players, i pods, car keys with remote function or mobile phones. This is the offical line and I am still none the wiser! A much shorter version of the other vast link in that post is
http://tinyurl.com/jfkar
http://tinyurl.com/jfkar