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eirjet A320 LANDS AT WRONG AIRPORT!

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eirjet A320 LANDS AT WRONG AIRPORT!

Old 1st Apr 2006, 09:39
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ruthless
No matter what is said by sympathetic wimps, you have to be robust about this. These two "professional pilots" took the money in wages to do a job. The job being to fly from A to B they were not capable of doing so, they ended up at X. They clearly have no navigational skills, no map reading skills and no situational awareness. Two people taking the wages but not able to deliver the goods, pathetic.
Now, all you lilly livered mugs cherping in with, tight turn round times, heavy duty rostering, pressure, a simple mistake, no damage done, no one injured or the wife wouldn't let me shag her last night, is just bollocks. They should be sacked and their licences revoked, they are guilty of at best GROSS PROFESSIONAL INCOMPENTENCE and at worst RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING LIFE. If the CAA had any balls they would be charged accordingly. You make fools of yourselves and the industry by defending them. Mr O'Leary is right, they are nothing more than gloryfied bus drivers. The fact that no one was killed or injuried is in no part due to them. There is no inquiry to wait for, the facts speak for themselves, they didn't declare an emergency, they continued an approach, blissfully unware of where they were, they were quite happy they knew what they were doing or they wouldn't have landed there. NOW RIP INTO ME FOR BEING HONEST.
Sympathetic wimps? I would actually call it being able to recognise that we all make mistakes. Aviation is only as safe as it is because of the relatively open culture, however these guys wll be well aware of how serious this incident is.
Glorified bus drivers? Yes we are, but only in the same way as brain surgeons are glorified plumbers. You get the average bus driver to guide a £100 mil aircraft thru the skies and there would be a very big whole in the ground very quickly!
People make mistakes every day in their jobs and one day my friend you will too. the fact you say they didnt "declare an emergency" shows that you are not a pilot and never would make it as one.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 10:05
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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These guys did not deliberately land at the wrong airfield so there must be a reason why they became disoriented and convinced themselves they were in the right place.
As professional aviators it's in all our interests to find out why and how this could happen.
I await the final report and certainly don't see the need to slag off the crew on this anonymous forum.
WS
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 10:23
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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eire757,

Your response is the rubbish I expected, you display your naivety beyond belief. I am a pilot, with thousands of hours actually, on what evidence do you make the rash statement that I am not. You jumped to a conclusion, just like they jumped to a runway any runway.
Who says the bus drivers would make very big holes they may do a better job, do you think you are something special, these two would probably have held your attitude proir to the incident, the " we are special no one can do what we do" belief, but they have been brought down to earth with a bang.
If a surgeon was to operate on you to amputate your left leg and removed the right leg by mistake, would you have to be a surgeon to criticise his mistake when it was so glaring. They have, to repeat, been guilty of gross negligence and or recklessly endangering life. I have never said that I haven't made an error nor that I never will. However, in life sometimes you have to be real and not live in fairy land like you, eire757, they have screwed up big time no mitigation can undo that, get real, the world doen't owe pilots a living nor do they have to accept rubbish from them. Be big enough to stand up and be counted, be a man.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 10:40
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in what Ruthless says. Forget all the nonsence about rostering and work patterns etc, etc, ultimately how would you like to have been sitting down the back if the military had a helicopter or JCB parked half way down the runway? Effective use of the onboard mapping systems could have prevented this, but of course we are all 'real' pilots who prefer to resort to stick and rudder?
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 11:17
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Mr.Ruthless is a Troll. A grand total of 7 posts - all on this thread. Watch out for pseudonyms too.

I hesitate to even respond, but if some of you (d246) are truly gullible enough to believe that an experienced pilot (thousands of hours he says) would refer to himself or this profession as glorified bus-drivers then you need your head examined. I propose that his 'thousands of hours' are behind a PC with Flight Sim.

Regarding the comment on surgeons cutting off the wrong leg, obvious crap because:

(a) surgeons have done that kind of thing many a time and are rarely fired for it as far as I see (current case in the US - little girl had wrong side of heads opened for brain op. They realised their error, moved to the other side, did the surgery, closed up, and thats all right then!? )

and

(b) in this incident nobodys leg got cut off. Nor anything else for that matter.

Back to reality - the newspapers say the Captain had tens of thousands of hours experience on 'major european carriers' before joining Eirjet. Would this Captain have been recently retired from another well known Irish airline perchance?
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 11:54
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Consul you are right, Irish pilots are amongst the good guys and as you say, inspite of the IAA. There is no "Paddy Bashing" meant or intended from this corner. But don't you think that an organisation which has so many aircraft so look after (I'm not just speaking about those operated by RYR, but those operated throughout the world, many by national flag carriers) should have a greater presence? And in no way was I criticising the guys involved. But we have ways and means to help ensure that these "minor" excursions don't take place. Some of the them, like EGPWS (which doesn't care what's in the FMS, set up on the Nav boxes etc...) are technical. Other are operational, some training related and many airmanship related. And on each and every one of these factors, leadership and guidance MUST come from the national oversight authority. To date, I believe that they have been sleeping. Maybe, hopefully, this will be the turning point and you will end with an organistion to be proud of.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 11:57
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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If you examine Ruthless' posts, you will see he made some inquiries last year about the vagaries of the ATPL written exams. Now he claims he is a 737 SFO on his profile. In fairness, if you, like Ruthless, were doing your exams only last year, and were now a 737 SFO, that would be an astonishing rate of progress. Given such a rate, clearly he is something special and operates on a higher plane to the rest of us and is therefore qualified to make such comments.

Last edited by CamelhAir; 1st Apr 2006 at 12:11.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 12:07
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry to be posting so much on this tread, but the comments of Ruthless are just to much for me.

Dear mr. Ruthless: If you are really a pilot with thousands of hours (which I highly doubt given your comments), I would like to know where...so I don´t accidently apply there! You are a dinosaur! How dare you judge on other people and say that they should be fired when you have no clue about what really happen. Nobody does except the pilots and the authorities investigating the case right now. Or were you by accident sitting on the jumpseat? How dare you call my fine collegues a bunch of bus drivers! How dare you sympathise with the stupid opinions of MOL. How dear you ignore the reality of CRM, and human error and decide on your own what is right and wrong.

Of all the people that write here, I guess that you are the most likely person to make the next mistake and land somewhere wrong (with a co-pilot who does not dare to speak up to you)....ohh no, sorry, you are god .

No brains in your head mate!

(sorry for getting nasty, but I hate to see our fine profession thrown down the gutter like that)
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 12:17
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Irish pilots are amongst the good guys and as you say, inspite of the IAA
There's a lot, a large amount, of truth to both halves of this statement. The IAA are utterly toothless and kow-tow completely to the whim of the airlines. And I think ayone who has flown with Irish lads will agree with the first half.

But don't you think that an organisation which has so many aircraft so look after (I'm not just speaking about those operated by RYR, but those operated throughout the world, many by national flag carriers) should have a greater presence?
Absolutely spot on. Here is the organisation that has wilfully allowed FR operate more aircraft than allowed by it's AOC for example. Is it any wonder you see so many aircraft around Europe under EI reg? Ireland, due to the IAA, is the Panama/Bermuda of European aviation. I, for one, find it embarassing.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 12:30
  #150 (permalink)  

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Exclamation

Sigh!

There's always a few who get baited by the silly little trolls like Ruthless and can't resist falling into the trap. For the time being, Ruthless has been given a suspension with a warning that should he come back on here, he does so with a bit more civility and depth to his posts.

Those of us who fly these types of aircraft for a living can always tell when someone posting on here is doing so from a position of ignorance. There are always tell tale clues in things such as terminology and descriptions of what 'they' think we have with us on the flight deck.

I would appeal to everyone on this thread that has taken the time to speculate or pontificate that 'we' know who knows what they are talking about and 'we' also know who is trying to pretend to be a professional airline pilot but failing miserably in the process. Stop trying to pretend that you are one of our fraternity if you are not. Once you are in, assuming you have the qualifications AND experience to back it up, your comments will be give the consideration they deserve. As for the others who pontificate without the experience to back it up, and I mean experience flying these kinds of jets, then please limit your posts to questions or else qualify your experience as faking it isn't going to wash on here.

Now, can we please ignore the Trolls and pretenders and get back to some semblance of debate rather than some of the mind numbingly irrelevant stuff that the media love to latch on to.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 12:43
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Isn't it always the case on these forums that no matter what criminal, incompetent, stupid or crass action some pilot may be responsible for there is always a vocal mob defending them. What part do the regulating authorities play in a couple of pilots landing at the wrong airfield? What defence can they possibly mount? Who would be responsible for the consequences of an accident or of deaths? It's time some of you grew up and learnt to accept the consequences of what you do. Indeed, the sooner aircraft are totally automated and the less 'Biggles' up front has to do or touch the better. As for the entry above, you may disagree with Ruthless, Danny, but his entries are no more or less offensive than many others here. As for

Now, can we please ignore the Trolls and pretenders and get back to some semblance of debate rather than some of the mind numbingly irrelevant stuff that the media love to latch on to.


Well 90% of the stuff on these forums fits that description and who is responsible for that?

Last edited by d246; 1st Apr 2006 at 12:57.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 12:59
  #152 (permalink)  
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Danny having already removed some of my posts over the years why cant you just delete these trolls?

You can start with d246 who is another to have claimed to be a pilot in the past on these boards.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...86#post2359286
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 13:13
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IAA

Thanks Piltdown, clarification fully accepted and appreciated. The IAA is indeed very laissez faire on airlines and lets them do pretty much as the see fit. Its all part of a facillitate our "small open economy". I have also some knowledge in how they deal with ordinary ppls are they are pedantic in the extreme on many matters. It really is a gross imbalance. However this eirjet 320 was DUB based so there is no excuse for lack of oversight.
Anyway, as stated by another, EGPWS is not fool proof as is supposed to be overridden if you have a nuisance warning in day vmc and know where you are. Which the pilots thought they did! If we are honest we could all have done this, learn and be wiser.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 14:04
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d246

What possible defence can they have? Under pressure, they made a mistake. As human beings are prone to do. Do you honestly think that this crew has committed a criminal offence? They had a sodding bad day at the office. I think you will find that they are being defended by people who have some experience flying these types of aircraft, people who understand how a go around increases workload considerably and appreciate how easy it is to lose orientation and spatial awareness under such circumstances. I would suggest that you have none of the above experience, understanding or appreciation, and your comments are therefore meaningless.

To put it bluntly, you don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 15:11
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Juhu

I remember when I was a sprog Second Officer on the 707 on my first flight into Bombay the crusty old skipper told me the tale of the Comet I think it was that landed at Juhu instead of Bombay (it's on short final centreline 09). Suitably forewarned I landed at the correct airport - not difficult as we were 5 in the cockpit in those days -Capt, 2 F/O one of whom navigated, E/O and me under suspicion. Had a look on Google Earth if it's still there, it is and you can see they've painted JUHU giant size on the threshold. I reckon the Bally Colonel should get his squaddies out there with buckets of white paint so it does'nt happen again.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 15:21
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With charts, and proper briefings, and GPS, how can anyone defend landing at the wrong airport? No excuse and that the bottom line.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 15:48
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Of course one makes mistakes Bitmorerightrudder, some might be disastrous most not. However, as professional aircrew we understand that the buck stops at the left hand seat. We understand that passengers place their trust and lives in our hands and expect us to get it right, we don’t in the main, make excuses or expect others, such as yourself, to do so for us. We accept responsibility for what we do and are usually the first to hold up our hands and admit our errors and accept the consequences. There may be extenuating circumstances, bad luck or any number of reasons why an accident happens but ultimately we know that there are no excuses for incidents such as this. I’m sure that this crew understand this, they will have plenty of time to reflect on what might have been but for sure they don’t need platitudes from such as yourself.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 16:23
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There has to be some criticism here.

All the talk of short turn-around times is nonsense. It's a fairly direct track from Liverpool to Derry, usually on a radar heading, and I refuse to believe that there wasn't enough time in the (very short) cruise or in the descent to go over the major points of the approach brief.

Also, according to the info here they flew a go-around when the ILS failed/was switched off or whatever happened to it. So why didn't they follow the missed approach, go into the hold, get their bearings and then make a visual approach. They rushed and they weren't ready. Whether this is due to company time pressure or whatever I don't know but the captain should ensure that the don't get sucked into this sort of trap.

If they weren't familiar with the field they should have taken a few minutes extra to ensure they both knew what the plan was. Whilst it's a relatively easy mistake to make, the crew are undoubtedly at fault and have to expect some criticism. Life aint sugar coated you know.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 16:26
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Originally Posted by d246
However, as professional aircrew we understand that the buck stops at the left hand seat. There may be extenuating circumstances, bad luck or any number of reasons why an accident happens but ultimately we know that there are no excuses for incidents such as this
Without exception, there is no excuse or any extenuating circumstances as to why a professional airman would or could land at the wrong airport to which he/she is dispatched to. That’s why we have approach plates and briefings, to ensure the intended destination airport is landed at.

Crews who land at the intended airport of destination is not good luck its just professional disciplines which are followed in the cockpit… plain and simple.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 17:23
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I find that as a captain, you are made responsible for things which you can not always be responsible for. Now this is a bit off topic, and in now way removes the responsibilities of a captain to land at the correct airport, but it came to my mind because of all the people writing that the captain should take the fall.

Are you all familiar with those laws which state that the captain is ultimately responsible for this or that. It is written all over the air law and some of the things we don´t even control. As captain I am responsible to know the contents of all the AIPs of all the airports I can go to (in my airline about 700). And I don´t even have the AIPs available to me. As a captain I am responsible for signing of an airplanes technical state, which I can only check with a walk around, having not been an engineer before. As a captain I am suppose to accept the most crazy runway configurations due too noise abatement, but if something happens, they go at me because I did not request the longest runway with the most headwind. As a captain I have to maintain myself fit and rested, but they can reduce my rest to 7 and a half hours (with taxies and food that leaves 5 hours for the sack...).

I guess the best example is the long haul flight with the captain, FO and cruise relieve pilot. Who is responsible if the Captain is sleeping in his bunk and the FO and cruise relieve pilot are flying? You got it, the captain who his sound asleep is responsible according to law for everything that happens at that time on the flightdeck.

I am happy to take the responsibilities and I will do my utmost to garantee the safety of my passengers and myself. But I have also accepted that if something goes wrong there will be a 50% change they will eat me alive no matter what I did! That is why I will defend any pilot unless he is proven to be absolutely not qualified, and there are very few of those around. And I am quite certain that the guys from eirjet are quite qualified.

Why can we pilots not leave the bashing of our collegues to the other guys. There are already so many out there who will slaughter us at their convenience. I am not talking about protecting our own, or covering up mistakes. I am just asking for a bit of respect for the guys that are going to a lot harder period right now then you and me behind the PC.

Thank you!
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