Don't ever pay to apply for Rayanair!
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Don't ever pay to apply for Rayanair!
MY ADVICE: DON'T GIVE ANY MONEY TO THOSE BASTARDS: The employment contract is totally disgraceful and reflects exactly their crook mentality.
Here are a few terms of the contract for a F/O B737/800 already qualified and with 3000 hours on B737:
- Your basic salary will be at the rate of IEP£18,000 gross…
- TRAINING BOUND EVEN IF QUALIFIDED!!!!
(1)You acknowledge that Ryanair will incur costs in the sum of STG£8,000 in providing you with initial training and that in the event that your contract is terminated before the end of your first two years service Ryanair will suffer loss in the amount of all or part of that sum.
(2) If your employment with Ryanair is terminated before the end of the first two years of your service other than;
(a) on grounds of redundancy or
(b) where Ryanair agrees in writing to the contrary
You will become liable to repay to Ryanair a proportion of the costs incurred by Ryanair in providing you with initial training.
(3) You agree that Ryanair’s loss in respect of the costs incurred in providing you with initial training and your liability to repay will be;
STG£8,000/24 x number of months of the first two years of your service remaining after termination
(4) You agree that Ryanair may deduct from any sum due to you from Ryanair (including salary) all or part of the sum repayable by you in accordance with this contract or by any order of the court.
- UNIFORM:
You will be provided with a pilot's uniform at your own expense in line with Company practice. You will be required to sign a salary deduction form in the amount of IEP£300 for the cost of this uniform. You must maintain this uniform in accordance with Company standards, at your own expense.
- EXCESS CAPACITY:
Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If we are required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.
- WORKING HOURS & BASE
Due to the nature of our business, working irregular hours, including rostered / day or night shifts, are a condition of your employment. Ryanair’s aircraft are registered in the Republic of Ireland and as you will perform your duties on these aircraft your employment is based in the Republic of Ireland. You will operate from Hahn but it must be clearly understood that you may be required to transfer to any other Ryanair base without compensation. It must also be understood that should you be transferred to another base you will be paid in accordance with the prevailing salary and flight pay system in operation at that base.
- POSITION
Upon you;
(a) obtaining licence validation
(b) completing your initial training to the satisfaction of Ryanair and
(c) completing line training without a safety pilot to the satisfaction of Ryanair
you will be appointed to the position of First Officer - Boeing 737-800 aircraft.
You will report to Ryanair’s Chief Pilot and/or his nominated deputies.
As a First Officer you may from time to time at Ryanair’s absolute discretion be required to perform non-flying duties within any of Ryanair’s departments.
ETC... ETC...
My question is: has anybody signed a contract with these assholes after 1st October 2001 and received (and accepted) the same shocking conditions?
This is a shame for our profession.
Here are a few terms of the contract for a F/O B737/800 already qualified and with 3000 hours on B737:
- Your basic salary will be at the rate of IEP£18,000 gross…
- TRAINING BOUND EVEN IF QUALIFIDED!!!!
(1)You acknowledge that Ryanair will incur costs in the sum of STG£8,000 in providing you with initial training and that in the event that your contract is terminated before the end of your first two years service Ryanair will suffer loss in the amount of all or part of that sum.
(2) If your employment with Ryanair is terminated before the end of the first two years of your service other than;
(a) on grounds of redundancy or
(b) where Ryanair agrees in writing to the contrary
You will become liable to repay to Ryanair a proportion of the costs incurred by Ryanair in providing you with initial training.
(3) You agree that Ryanair’s loss in respect of the costs incurred in providing you with initial training and your liability to repay will be;
STG£8,000/24 x number of months of the first two years of your service remaining after termination
(4) You agree that Ryanair may deduct from any sum due to you from Ryanair (including salary) all or part of the sum repayable by you in accordance with this contract or by any order of the court.
- UNIFORM:
You will be provided with a pilot's uniform at your own expense in line with Company practice. You will be required to sign a salary deduction form in the amount of IEP£300 for the cost of this uniform. You must maintain this uniform in accordance with Company standards, at your own expense.
- EXCESS CAPACITY:
Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If we are required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.
- WORKING HOURS & BASE
Due to the nature of our business, working irregular hours, including rostered / day or night shifts, are a condition of your employment. Ryanair’s aircraft are registered in the Republic of Ireland and as you will perform your duties on these aircraft your employment is based in the Republic of Ireland. You will operate from Hahn but it must be clearly understood that you may be required to transfer to any other Ryanair base without compensation. It must also be understood that should you be transferred to another base you will be paid in accordance with the prevailing salary and flight pay system in operation at that base.
- POSITION
Upon you;
(a) obtaining licence validation
(b) completing your initial training to the satisfaction of Ryanair and
(c) completing line training without a safety pilot to the satisfaction of Ryanair
you will be appointed to the position of First Officer - Boeing 737-800 aircraft.
You will report to Ryanair’s Chief Pilot and/or his nominated deputies.
As a First Officer you may from time to time at Ryanair’s absolute discretion be required to perform non-flying duties within any of Ryanair’s departments.
ETC... ETC...
My question is: has anybody signed a contract with these assholes after 1st October 2001 and received (and accepted) the same shocking conditions?
This is a shame for our profession.
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You are right, this is a bad contract. You would have to be desperate to sign this contract. Unfortunately, some people are desperate and will accept these conditions!
There are a few standard items in there, that have always been in there. The additions are the lower basic, the 'training bond', payment for uniform and the Hahn base.
The point about performing non-flying duties within any of Ryanair’s departments does not happen. You may be required to be on the jump-seat as a safety pilot.
It looks like the contract is to target the 'zero-hour pilot' to me...
There are a few standard items in there, that have always been in there. The additions are the lower basic, the 'training bond', payment for uniform and the Hahn base.
The point about performing non-flying duties within any of Ryanair’s departments does not happen. You may be required to be on the jump-seat as a safety pilot.
It looks like the contract is to target the 'zero-hour pilot' to me...
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All looks pretty straightforward to me - when you join another company under JAROPS you must be given company specific training and of course there's a cost associated with that.
I see you conveniently forgot to mention the duty/flying pay etc...
This is the way the industry's going in order to cut its costs ... if you don't like it, you can go off and do something else!
I see you conveniently forgot to mention the duty/flying pay etc...
This is the way the industry's going in order to cut its costs ... if you don't like it, you can go off and do something else!
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Guvnor,
I would like to join Mermose in his move against that airline, because I had the occsion to see a typical F/O contract from Ryanair myself, and they go far out. As far as pay is concerned, if you want to know, it was 18,000 irish pounds gross per year for a -800 F/O. Thats quite the opposite from what has been announced during the april boom. Then, the money they require you to pay if you leave the company before a certain time doesn't have any sense in the case of the guy who gave me an example of his contract because as he was qualified, so, apart from the standardisation course (3 sim sessions!) , he doesn't need any training. More of that, It seems like Ryanair actually own their sims (to be verified, I agree, anyone has a clue on this?), so if it is actually true, how dare they: 1. make the candidates pay for the trial session; 2. ask a moneyback garantee for 3 little sims sessions???
Another thing: they can put you on a undefinite and unpayed leave if they need to do so, without ANY compensation.
And finally, in Belgium, they could negotiatie a financial help especially dedicated to the training and enrolment of belgian pilots on the -800, and now, the few belgian candidates who had an interview with them where told they would have to pay the rating??? now who are these bastards???
I am aware that Offer and Demand are closely linked, and the situation of aviation now is in our disadvantage, but, believe me, Having lost my first job 2 months ago, I had the chance to find another seat 3 weeks ago, and the conditons remained as decent as what I previously had. The only change is that during the fist month I can be put aside in a couple of days, due to the uncertainty of the market, and that is fair play. But, about Ryanair, when better times will come for us, I hope we will all remember what they did to us... Gentlemen, we are not just bus drivers, think about that...
PS: Apart from who owns the sims, all information held in here is truth!!!
I would like to join Mermose in his move against that airline, because I had the occsion to see a typical F/O contract from Ryanair myself, and they go far out. As far as pay is concerned, if you want to know, it was 18,000 irish pounds gross per year for a -800 F/O. Thats quite the opposite from what has been announced during the april boom. Then, the money they require you to pay if you leave the company before a certain time doesn't have any sense in the case of the guy who gave me an example of his contract because as he was qualified, so, apart from the standardisation course (3 sim sessions!) , he doesn't need any training. More of that, It seems like Ryanair actually own their sims (to be verified, I agree, anyone has a clue on this?), so if it is actually true, how dare they: 1. make the candidates pay for the trial session; 2. ask a moneyback garantee for 3 little sims sessions???
Another thing: they can put you on a undefinite and unpayed leave if they need to do so, without ANY compensation.
And finally, in Belgium, they could negotiatie a financial help especially dedicated to the training and enrolment of belgian pilots on the -800, and now, the few belgian candidates who had an interview with them where told they would have to pay the rating??? now who are these bastards???
I am aware that Offer and Demand are closely linked, and the situation of aviation now is in our disadvantage, but, believe me, Having lost my first job 2 months ago, I had the chance to find another seat 3 weeks ago, and the conditons remained as decent as what I previously had. The only change is that during the fist month I can be put aside in a couple of days, due to the uncertainty of the market, and that is fair play. But, about Ryanair, when better times will come for us, I hope we will all remember what they did to us... Gentlemen, we are not just bus drivers, think about that...
PS: Apart from who owns the sims, all information held in here is truth!!!
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Guvnor, you really are a dipstick! You speak of things that you have absolutely no idea. You claim to be an aviation person who has run an airline (Ha! Some poxy outfit in darkest Africa where you were allowed to get away with bending all the rules and were ousted by your fellow directors because you are such a Walter Mitty) and you have the audacity to claim to be an ATPL holder with many hours of experience.
Well, it is about time you put up or shut up. You have NEVER, EVER, given ANY information on your qualifications to ANYONE always wriggling out with the claim that you don't have to and will only do so privately to someone who gives you their details. Unfortunately I know for a fact that you are extremely devious and anyone who gives you their details risks being harassed and intimidated by you or one of your aliases and I know personally of people who have befriended you only to have their hospitality abused and their finances pilfered.
Unless you can provide details of your licence qualifications, hours on type for which operator then you certainly are not qualified to bull**** about what is good or bad for us pilots. No doubt you will once again claim that you do not have to give any information out but you have put yourself so high on a pedestal that you are about to take a great fall unless you can substantiate some of your claims (lies?).
The terms of the contract we have been shown are some of the most degrading in the industry and certainly not worth applying for if you have any prior experience. Maybe if you are a desperate wannabe with a type rating looking for your first job or an eastern block pilot with the right to work in Europe.
As you say, most pilots with any experience will go off and do something else. This type of contract will eventually backfire on Ryanair as their recruitment of experienced pilots dries up and when (yes it is only a matter of time) they have their first serious incident that is attributable in any way to the level of experience on their flight deck their insurers put more restrictive requirement for experience and the supervising authority clamp down on them.
Your other comment about having to be bonded for company specific training is just one more spurt of verbal diarrhorea from you ego-inflated head. Obviously another reason why you can't raise the money to start your 'airline' because most people with any sense can see through your Walter Mitty persona and have a lot more sense than to lend you anything, especially with your track record over here in the UK. Have the banks and Amex had their little meeting with you yet? I doubt it as you are doing your utmost to avoid responding to them.
You can fool some of the people all of the time and there are a few readers here who are impressed with you but fail to realise that it is only your ability to cut and paste news articles. Those of us who have been reading your personal views on some of the issues are not impressed and you are about as high in our estimation as something brown and smelly that people avoid trying to tread in! It is obvious that you do not have much appreciation for the work that pilots do and in your virtual airline pilots would be a necessary evil but for you to make claims that you understand what the job is about because you have delusions about once being an airline pilot is total fantasy.
You have never been an airline pilot and you don't even have a PPL. You have never 'owned' or 'run' an airline, never mind a gun-running and smuggling operation in darkest Africa yet you continue to make comments on issues that affect us as pilots and your tone of derision as in the post above only serve to make the rest of us pilots glad that you don't have an airline nor are you ever likely to. In fact, if you post your piloting qualifications (oh, and while we're at it your fake degrees too) for us to inspect I will reveal my identity to you and place a wager on the fact that you will never own or run ANY airline!
Of course, hell may freeze over in the meantime as you have a habit of prevaricating about revealing anything about any of your qualifications. You are not stupid but you certainly are a twister of the truth and manage to pull the wool over the eyes of some of your readers but those of us who do have some experience in the business are not fooled and you only go to prove our points by your avoidance of answering the critical questions.
When you have revealed you qualifications, educational and aviation, that you claim to have (qualifications, places and dates) and thereby show your right to be respected for your comments then you will find that those of us who know your real persona will leave you alone to preach your pearls of wisdom. I'm not going to hold my breath though.
Well, it is about time you put up or shut up. You have NEVER, EVER, given ANY information on your qualifications to ANYONE always wriggling out with the claim that you don't have to and will only do so privately to someone who gives you their details. Unfortunately I know for a fact that you are extremely devious and anyone who gives you their details risks being harassed and intimidated by you or one of your aliases and I know personally of people who have befriended you only to have their hospitality abused and their finances pilfered.
Unless you can provide details of your licence qualifications, hours on type for which operator then you certainly are not qualified to bull**** about what is good or bad for us pilots. No doubt you will once again claim that you do not have to give any information out but you have put yourself so high on a pedestal that you are about to take a great fall unless you can substantiate some of your claims (lies?).
The terms of the contract we have been shown are some of the most degrading in the industry and certainly not worth applying for if you have any prior experience. Maybe if you are a desperate wannabe with a type rating looking for your first job or an eastern block pilot with the right to work in Europe.
As you say, most pilots with any experience will go off and do something else. This type of contract will eventually backfire on Ryanair as their recruitment of experienced pilots dries up and when (yes it is only a matter of time) they have their first serious incident that is attributable in any way to the level of experience on their flight deck their insurers put more restrictive requirement for experience and the supervising authority clamp down on them.
Your other comment about having to be bonded for company specific training is just one more spurt of verbal diarrhorea from you ego-inflated head. Obviously another reason why you can't raise the money to start your 'airline' because most people with any sense can see through your Walter Mitty persona and have a lot more sense than to lend you anything, especially with your track record over here in the UK. Have the banks and Amex had their little meeting with you yet? I doubt it as you are doing your utmost to avoid responding to them.
You can fool some of the people all of the time and there are a few readers here who are impressed with you but fail to realise that it is only your ability to cut and paste news articles. Those of us who have been reading your personal views on some of the issues are not impressed and you are about as high in our estimation as something brown and smelly that people avoid trying to tread in! It is obvious that you do not have much appreciation for the work that pilots do and in your virtual airline pilots would be a necessary evil but for you to make claims that you understand what the job is about because you have delusions about once being an airline pilot is total fantasy.
You have never been an airline pilot and you don't even have a PPL. You have never 'owned' or 'run' an airline, never mind a gun-running and smuggling operation in darkest Africa yet you continue to make comments on issues that affect us as pilots and your tone of derision as in the post above only serve to make the rest of us pilots glad that you don't have an airline nor are you ever likely to. In fact, if you post your piloting qualifications (oh, and while we're at it your fake degrees too) for us to inspect I will reveal my identity to you and place a wager on the fact that you will never own or run ANY airline!
Of course, hell may freeze over in the meantime as you have a habit of prevaricating about revealing anything about any of your qualifications. You are not stupid but you certainly are a twister of the truth and manage to pull the wool over the eyes of some of your readers but those of us who do have some experience in the business are not fooled and you only go to prove our points by your avoidance of answering the critical questions.
When you have revealed you qualifications, educational and aviation, that you claim to have (qualifications, places and dates) and thereby show your right to be respected for your comments then you will find that those of us who know your real persona will leave you alone to preach your pearls of wisdom. I'm not going to hold my breath though.
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Ozdude- you really have a problem don't you! Most of us rely on the Guv for our diet of rumour to brighten up these depressing times. Personally I don't care if the Gov managed a Martian airline! he hasn't done me any harm- or you for that matter. Your rampaging is typical of the attitude that has ruined most Australian airlines! Why don't you go off out into the desert and shoot a kangaroo or something! 
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2Low2Fast - we've been through this bonding issue before on a number of threads. Unfortunately, as long as people move from job to job (especially low timed FOs) then the airlines have to safeguard their interests. In fact, I was under the impression that FR were getting their new hires to pay for a conversion course?
As for the option to put people on unpaid leave - I think you'll find that a lot of carriers are - or will be - including similar clauses in their contracts; using hard learnt lessons from the current economic climate.
Re the sims - I understand that they use GECAT. Can anyone confirm this?
OzDude - if I ever apply to you for a job, I'd be more than happy to supply the information requested. As I'm not, why should I? People who have a need - or right - to know are of course provided them and that includes a few people on here.
Unlike the majority of people on here - including yourself, I note - I do not hide my identity or even location. Surely if I was as 'devious' as you claim, I would remain as covert as possible!
As to whether or not you doubt my veracity that of course is your own choice. I don't see anyone holding a gun at your head, forcing you to read my posts - or indeed anyone elses. If you don't like what you read, don't read it - pass onto something that might better suit your needs such as a thread on "Why Pilots Are Sky Gods and Should Run Airlines And Be Paid Millions Plus Get A Minimum of 4 Days Off Per Week And A Maximum of 200 Hours Duty Time Per Year". Hmmmm, not an '89er, were you? Thought so!
I'm also rather interested to see that you're claiming that "I know for a fact that you are extremely devious and anyone who gives you their details risks being harassed and intimidated by you or one of your aliases and I know personally of people who have befriended you only to have their hospitality abused and their finances pilfered." You'll appreciate that these are rather serious allegations and I'd appreciate it if you would disclose precisely who has been "harassed and intimidated"; who my "alias" is that allegedly "harassed and intimidated" such alleged person or persons; and from whom I have allegedly "pilfered" finances. I'd also appreciate it if you could provide your name and address - not for "harassment" but rather so my attorney can arrange to have you served with a summons for libel should you not be able to provide such evidence requested.
I'd be happy to accept your offer of a wager. What terms do you propose?
Going back to the subject at hand - I suspect that these contractual terms will apply solely to lowtimed FOs. Looking through past threads, I can't see any rumblings of discontent from any of the Captains - indeed they seem to be some of the highest paid in the business!
As for the option to put people on unpaid leave - I think you'll find that a lot of carriers are - or will be - including similar clauses in their contracts; using hard learnt lessons from the current economic climate.
Re the sims - I understand that they use GECAT. Can anyone confirm this?
OzDude - if I ever apply to you for a job, I'd be more than happy to supply the information requested. As I'm not, why should I?
People who have a need - or right - to know are of course provided them and that includes a few people on here. Unlike the majority of people on here - including yourself, I note - I do not hide my identity or even location. Surely if I was as 'devious' as you claim, I would remain as covert as possible!
As to whether or not you doubt my veracity that of course is your own choice. I don't see anyone holding a gun at your head, forcing you to read my posts - or indeed anyone elses. If you don't like what you read, don't read it - pass onto something that might better suit your needs such as a thread on "Why Pilots Are Sky Gods and Should Run Airlines And Be Paid Millions Plus Get A Minimum of 4 Days Off Per Week And A Maximum of 200 Hours Duty Time Per Year". Hmmmm, not an '89er, were you? Thought so!
I'm also rather interested to see that you're claiming that "I know for a fact that you are extremely devious and anyone who gives you their details risks being harassed and intimidated by you or one of your aliases and I know personally of people who have befriended you only to have their hospitality abused and their finances pilfered." You'll appreciate that these are rather serious allegations and I'd appreciate it if you would disclose precisely who has been "harassed and intimidated"; who my "alias" is that allegedly "harassed and intimidated" such alleged person or persons; and from whom I have allegedly "pilfered" finances. I'd also appreciate it if you could provide your name and address - not for "harassment" but rather so my attorney can arrange to have you served with a summons for libel should you not be able to provide such evidence requested.
I'd be happy to accept your offer of a wager. What terms do you propose?
Going back to the subject at hand - I suspect that these contractual terms will apply solely to lowtimed FOs. Looking through past threads, I can't see any rumblings of discontent from any of the Captains - indeed they seem to be some of the highest paid in the business!
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Oh please Guv,
Unless you supply your real name- so you are identifiable - you cannot file a 'summons' for derogatory comments towards you as an unidentifiable alias entity on the net. I'd love to see you try!
If you are successful with your summons let us all know - I'm sure there are a few people on this forum who would love to file summons against you for some of your past comments
I think some of your outspoken and ill advised comments are coming home to roost. lets face it, if you stir enough you'll end up getting some back!
Cheers!
Busta
Oh, and BTW - the Ryanair contract stinks. In any other industry (apart from fast food restaurants) they'd be closed in a week due to staff shortages!
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: Busta Level ]
Unless you supply your real name- so you are identifiable - you cannot file a 'summons' for derogatory comments towards you as an unidentifiable alias entity on the net. I'd love to see you try!
If you are successful with your summons let us all know - I'm sure there are a few people on this forum who would love to file summons against you for some of your past comments
I think some of your outspoken and ill advised comments are coming home to roost. lets face it, if you stir enough you'll end up getting some back!
Cheers!
Busta
Oh, and BTW - the Ryanair contract stinks. In any other industry (apart from fast food restaurants) they'd be closed in a week due to staff shortages!
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: Busta Level ]
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Basically, when it comes to The Guvnor, there seem to be two PPRuNe camps - those who like him (but who know very little about him) and those that loathe him (because they actually know quite a lot about him). So I'm with OzDude.
Mr Guvnor has an incredibly dodgy past, e.g. 737man, with regards to "he hasn't done me any harm", I seem to recall that a previous lady friend of The Guv - well at least he's not a poof, or perhaps he is (?) - made some VERY serious allegations about his loving / caring attitude towards her child, and all of which was raised here on PPRuNe months ago, or was it years ? and I seem to recall, though I might be mistaken, that she herself made a PPRuNe posting about it - has anybody got some historic links to that stuff ? and if so will you please put them in here to remind us.
In any event it all seems a bloody shame, because if he spent just 1/10th of the time he spends ******ing about with his bullsh!ting schemes, he'd probably be doing alright.
So at best I suppose he's a hapless dreamer, and at worst a dangerous though knowledgeable - which is what makes him all the more dangerous - con man !
And to get back to topic - there's no bloody way that I'd ever work for RyanAir on a contract like that - talk about wanting to own your soul !
Mr Guvnor has an incredibly dodgy past, e.g. 737man, with regards to "he hasn't done me any harm", I seem to recall that a previous lady friend of The Guv - well at least he's not a poof, or perhaps he is (?) - made some VERY serious allegations about his loving / caring attitude towards her child, and all of which was raised here on PPRuNe months ago, or was it years ? and I seem to recall, though I might be mistaken, that she herself made a PPRuNe posting about it - has anybody got some historic links to that stuff ? and if so will you please put them in here to remind us.
In any event it all seems a bloody shame, because if he spent just 1/10th of the time he spends ******ing about with his bullsh!ting schemes, he'd probably be doing alright.
So at best I suppose he's a hapless dreamer, and at worst a dangerous though knowledgeable - which is what makes him all the more dangerous - con man !
And to get back to topic - there's no bloody way that I'd ever work for RyanAir on a contract like that - talk about wanting to own your soul !
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WHY DOES ANYBODY ON THESE FORUMS EVEN BOTHER TO ANSWER THAT TOSSPOT 'GUVNOR' ANYMORE...WHEN OH WHEN? HAS HE/SHE EVER MADE A VALID REASONABLE POINT...
Yes... If the RYANAIR contracts are thus structured,it says a lot about the ethos of the organisation...from CEO to most junior FO They will take you burn you and disgard you...Go back to sweetshops Michael...
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: TR3 ]
Yes... If the RYANAIR contracts are thus structured,it says a lot about the ethos of the organisation...from CEO to most junior FO They will take you burn you and disgard you...Go back to sweetshops Michael...
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: TR3 ]
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The thing that I don't understand is that this GUV person has attended PPrune bashes and managed not to get the snot beat out of him, I know the ways here are a little different than over there, but if a person down this way acted like he did they wouldn't be too quick to show their face at something like that.
No offence GUV... but nobody likes a braggart, and since you're basically the only one blowing your own horn that's what you come across as.
No offence GUV... but nobody likes a braggart, and since you're basically the only one blowing your own horn that's what you come across as.
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Mert - I certainly don't think I'm blowing my own horn on anything! Perhaps once I've got the next operation up and running and am the best employer/most profitable airline/top of the consumer polls I might be tempted to do that - but what I do (as do other people here with management experience such as 411A) is provide a management perspective on various issues.
Whether you (or anyone else) wants to take them on board is entirely your own decision. Indeed, they may - or may not - be correct; but so far I think I've been right more times than I've been wrong. And I have been wrong on many occasions - and have been happy to acknowledge that.
And as for the Ryanair contract - I'm not saying at all that I agree with it; I'm just trying to provide an explanation about why it is what it is - and also to point out that FR is not going to be the only airline that's doing this. How many US carriers - especially the majors - charge for applications these days?
Hmmmm, Moses Mashomba ... I see that's your first post. Not yet another reincarnation of ZambAero, Who?, Freeboot, Freenum, Napoleon etc etc? I suspect so!
Whether you (or anyone else) wants to take them on board is entirely your own decision. Indeed, they may - or may not - be correct; but so far I think I've been right more times than I've been wrong. And I have been wrong on many occasions - and have been happy to acknowledge that.
And as for the Ryanair contract - I'm not saying at all that I agree with it; I'm just trying to provide an explanation about why it is what it is - and also to point out that FR is not going to be the only airline that's doing this. How many US carriers - especially the majors - charge for applications these days?
Hmmmm, Moses Mashomba ... I see that's your first post. Not yet another reincarnation of ZambAero, Who?, Freeboot, Freenum, Napoleon etc etc? I suspect so!
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As long as pilots in Ryanair continue to look out for their own personal interests rather than supporting their more junior collegues then pilots will continue to be undervalued for the work they do.
If a low time FO is willing to accept 18K (I like the way the pay is IEP and bond is STG btw....nice touch!) then it follows that s/he will accept a lower salary on getting a command....think about it. It's all divide and conquer tactics.
I would rather take a non-flying job than be bent over by Ryanair.
Guvnor: you were never a pilot-> that's patently obvious.
If a low time FO is willing to accept 18K (I like the way the pay is IEP and bond is STG btw....nice touch!) then it follows that s/he will accept a lower salary on getting a command....think about it. It's all divide and conquer tactics.
I would rather take a non-flying job than be bent over by Ryanair.
Guvnor: you were never a pilot-> that's patently obvious.
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737man, another nom de plume for Guv?
As Ozdude says the guv is a bore who adds little or nothing to this bulletin board. His contributions to almost any thread means it will normally die in a bitter flame war as he insults peole and then attempts to put the blame on others. I for one wouldnt be sad to see the back of the Guvnor.
Anyway, back to the point. This contract sucks and preys on those desperate enough to get work after spending at least $100,000 on commercial training. Airlines rely on people spending vast sums of their own money to get the basic training required before airlines have to spend only $20,000 on the type rating that pilots require before an airline can make any money from them. Anyway, how much loyalty will this sort of policy engender?
As Ozdude says the guv is a bore who adds little or nothing to this bulletin board. His contributions to almost any thread means it will normally die in a bitter flame war as he insults peole and then attempts to put the blame on others. I for one wouldnt be sad to see the back of the Guvnor.
Anyway, back to the point. This contract sucks and preys on those desperate enough to get work after spending at least $100,000 on commercial training. Airlines rely on people spending vast sums of their own money to get the basic training required before airlines have to spend only $20,000 on the type rating that pilots require before an airline can make any money from them. Anyway, how much loyalty will this sort of policy engender?
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The Guvnor, there are a few things I’d like to clarify: the contract doesn't apply only to lowtimed FOs. I was "offered" this bull**** contract with 3000 hours on type 737.
"the Highest paid" only applies to those who signed before 1st October. From that date, they reduced by half the salaries. Regarding the sector pay, THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO MENTION IN THE CONTRACT OF ANY SECTOR PAYMENT! It only applies under the table and there is nothing officially written about it. Also, you eventually receive an E-mail telling you that you get 50% of the normal sector pay during the first year and 75% during the second year. So it means that not only they can pay you exactly what they want and when they want, but also that there is an internal discrimination: between 2 pilots with exactly the same experience, one will get half of the other one salary! There must be a good atmosphere out there…
No contract can be as disgracefull as this.
So if you like the game these bastards play, I would suggest in the name of any pilot with a bit of honor, that you stay in your Darkest Africa, where slavery has apparently not yet been abolished.
For those who support my thoughts, thanks.
Cheers.
"the Highest paid" only applies to those who signed before 1st October. From that date, they reduced by half the salaries. Regarding the sector pay, THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO MENTION IN THE CONTRACT OF ANY SECTOR PAYMENT! It only applies under the table and there is nothing officially written about it. Also, you eventually receive an E-mail telling you that you get 50% of the normal sector pay during the first year and 75% during the second year. So it means that not only they can pay you exactly what they want and when they want, but also that there is an internal discrimination: between 2 pilots with exactly the same experience, one will get half of the other one salary! There must be a good atmosphere out there…
No contract can be as disgracefull as this.
So if you like the game these bastards play, I would suggest in the name of any pilot with a bit of honor, that you stay in your Darkest Africa, where slavery has apparently not yet been abolished.
For those who support my thoughts, thanks.
Cheers.
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Hmmm, do you pay tax on the sector pay? If not, then that's illegal and of course it should be included in the contract - ommiting it is also illegal and of course could result in a situation where they turn round and say "sorry, lads, no sector pay from now on" - and without documentary confirmation you haven't got a leg to stand on.
I understand that the FR definition of 'qualified on type' is not B737, but rather B737NG. How many hours on that do you have, Mermose - and does it comply with FR's stated minimums? If not, there you have your reason why you've been given this contract...
I understand that the FR definition of 'qualified on type' is not B737, but rather B737NG. How many hours on that do you have, Mermose - and does it comply with FR's stated minimums? If not, there you have your reason why you've been given this contract...
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I have 3000 hours on B737 EFIS (including 300 hours on 737/800) and a JAA licence issued in Belgium. I hope this answer your question... They claim that you need at least 500 hours on type 737/800 not to be bounded. Do you think that makes any difference? I don't think so. It's just another evidence of their crook spirit. Another cheap way to print money. They will pay it later. I'm ready to bet on that.