Don't ever pay to apply for Rayanair!
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Mermose- let's cut the crap. I am getting on for 60 years old and in all the countries I've flown and all the pilots I've met, I have never seen, or ever heard about one, with starving wife and kids.
..and that includes Indian, Bangladeshi and African pilots, let alone all the "unemployed" Irish and Aussies down the pub before logging on to their Pentium 4's...
..and that includes Indian, Bangladeshi and African pilots, let alone all the "unemployed" Irish and Aussies down the pub before logging on to their Pentium 4's...
Join Date: Oct 1999
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I think we've all missed the point here. MOL/Ryanair are laying down the gauntlet to 'us pilots'. Their T&C's show exactly how much they value us, and on the question of loyalty, their bonding agreement shows how much they will expect of us. As a CEO, MOL has made an error that will come back to haunt him in a couple of years. When 'pastures new' beckon for the bulk of Ryanairs' pilots, the exodus will have such a huge impact on the "25% annual growth" airline that he will alienate his penny pinching punters. When even they will concede that £19.99 for a cancelled flight is not good VFM.
Moreover, a new start up airline consisting of an average Flight Deck experience level of 2 years is not my idea of safety. The only pilots likely to touch these contracts will be those who need the first rung under their feet.
Good Luck to those who take this contract, you are the new Victorian Factory Workers of our era. The clause about 'relocation' is worth showing to a human rights lawyer.
Moreover, a new start up airline consisting of an average Flight Deck experience level of 2 years is not my idea of safety. The only pilots likely to touch these contracts will be those who need the first rung under their feet.
Good Luck to those who take this contract, you are the new Victorian Factory Workers of our era. The clause about 'relocation' is worth showing to a human rights lawyer.
Join Date: May 2001
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I’m not going to defend MOL or his sharp business practises.
I think we all need to remember that he will get away with as much as he’s allowed too. If he is charging for applications and he is still getting plenty of applicants, then you can’t criticise his business acumen. The only group that’s at fault is pilots.
In the applicants defence, they are seizing an opportunity that’s a rare thing about now. A lot of us here on this forum have got employment. I’m not going to criticise the boys and girls looking for a job.
We as a group, tend to whinge at great length about management and the way in which we are treated by them. But when it comes to standing up to this as a united force, we bottle it every time.
Look at what the train drivers achieved in the UK, because they stuck together. We as a profession tend to be easily divided by self-interest i.e. pension etc, the various management teams know this and run rings around us at the negotiating table. This will continue until we stick together.
I won’t be holding my breath though.
I think we all need to remember that he will get away with as much as he’s allowed too. If he is charging for applications and he is still getting plenty of applicants, then you can’t criticise his business acumen. The only group that’s at fault is pilots.
In the applicants defence, they are seizing an opportunity that’s a rare thing about now. A lot of us here on this forum have got employment. I’m not going to criticise the boys and girls looking for a job.
We as a group, tend to whinge at great length about management and the way in which we are treated by them. But when it comes to standing up to this as a united force, we bottle it every time.
Look at what the train drivers achieved in the UK, because they stuck together. We as a profession tend to be easily divided by self-interest i.e. pension etc, the various management teams know this and run rings around us at the negotiating table. This will continue until we stick together.
I won’t be holding my breath though.
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Like many in aviation and other, eventually, well-paid jobs, I started flying with a minimal contract and very low wages. But I will always be grateful for that opportunity as it was the first step to a long and rewarding aviation career.
Instead of feeling so vitriolic about FR - why not get aboard, take the money and gain the hours, and when something much, much better comes along -well you know what to do..
Just what is the problem - EVERYONE has to start SOMEWHERE. Why do pilots always want to start from the top??
Instead of feeling so vitriolic about FR - why not get aboard, take the money and gain the hours, and when something much, much better comes along -well you know what to do..
Just what is the problem - EVERYONE has to start SOMEWHERE. Why do pilots always want to start from the top??
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Not that I condone the sad and low tactics of Ryanair, but I have also noticed a sudden increase in the whinging from a certain bunch of moules et frites eating types who were on strike the day their salary payer went bust. 
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Magnus Picus - considering that FR have been around for the best part of 20 years, I hardly think the can be classified as a 'new, startup airline'!
Equally, I think that if life inside FR was unbearable, then their existing crews would have all disappeared. The fact that they tend to (more or less) keep to their schedules shows that this is not the case.
Also, bear in mind that if FR found it hard to recruit suitable personnel they would have improved their offer accordingly. That they have reduced these conditions would tend to indicate that they have a surfeit of qualified applicants.
Equally, I think that if life inside FR was unbearable, then their existing crews would have all disappeared. The fact that they tend to (more or less) keep to their schedules shows that this is not the case.
Also, bear in mind that if FR found it hard to recruit suitable personnel they would have improved their offer accordingly. That they have reduced these conditions would tend to indicate that they have a surfeit of qualified applicants.
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Join Date: Dec 2001
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PETE OTUBE, I agree with you, “starving” was a bit excessive, but there are for many colleagues pilots lot’s of pressures to find a job and the way Rayanair acts is not human, taking advantage of the difficult times. It just reflects their poor mentality.
It’s just what I wanted to pinpoint here. If you read the posts, you’ll find that it wasn’t that much of an innocent thread. Also, as the Guvnor said, they probably have “a surfeit of qualified applicants” that’s why lowtimed pilots should not waste money in their arrogant and disgraceful on line application falsely giving them hope to fly by hook or by crook. Last but not least, as a recall, the contract we are talking about applies only to pilots joining after 1st of October. So they can keep their artificial feelings about the well-being of their existing crews. Rayanair is offending the honor of aviation industry, and they will pay it sooner or later.
It’s just what I wanted to pinpoint here. If you read the posts, you’ll find that it wasn’t that much of an innocent thread. Also, as the Guvnor said, they probably have “a surfeit of qualified applicants” that’s why lowtimed pilots should not waste money in their arrogant and disgraceful on line application falsely giving them hope to fly by hook or by crook. Last but not least, as a recall, the contract we are talking about applies only to pilots joining after 1st of October. So they can keep their artificial feelings about the well-being of their existing crews. Rayanair is offending the honor of aviation industry, and they will pay it sooner or later.
Just cannot understand you two winged master race. You moan when there are no jobs and you moan when there are jobs. To get on in this world you have to go with the flow. At the moment there is a surplus of pilots and people that need them can pick and choose, set the rules and if you dont like the rules don't apply, however remember if you don't go for it there are plenty behind you that will, then were do you stand apart from in the dole queue where have your principles gone then. I could spend 50 quid in one evening on a meal and drinks give me a chance of getting a look in for that money and its well worth it.
All I can say is that out of all the pilots that I know most of them would just get on and do it and thankfully all the whingers just seem to end up in the same spot, here!!! I know what its like out there, I am a flight engineer currently unemployed, 3rd redundancy in 5 years but am willing to get out and look for work and yes I have worked on a telephone help desk but to continue to work in aviation is my goal and believe me any work is better than none at all. Get off your high horses and go for it, waiting for the big break could be some time yet.
Rant over, feel better for that.
All I can say is that out of all the pilots that I know most of them would just get on and do it and thankfully all the whingers just seem to end up in the same spot, here!!! I know what its like out there, I am a flight engineer currently unemployed, 3rd redundancy in 5 years but am willing to get out and look for work and yes I have worked on a telephone help desk but to continue to work in aviation is my goal and believe me any work is better than none at all. Get off your high horses and go for it, waiting for the big break could be some time yet.
Rant over, feel better for that.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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No problem for me if Ryanair wants to make money on the pilots they hire, as long as they are open about it.
BUT, I think they should not charge pilots that THEY chose NOT to hire. What if someone goes all the way through the selection process, and Ryanair at their own discretion think they don't want him/her ? They don't have to give a reason, and apart from all the time he spent, he also spent how much ? 50 for application, 50 for interview, 150 for sim session. 250 pounds, plus travel and possible days off somewhere, just to be told "we don't want you and we are not going to tell you why. Have a nice day".
BUT, I think they should not charge pilots that THEY chose NOT to hire. What if someone goes all the way through the selection process, and Ryanair at their own discretion think they don't want him/her ? They don't have to give a reason, and apart from all the time he spent, he also spent how much ? 50 for application, 50 for interview, 150 for sim session. 250 pounds, plus travel and possible days off somewhere, just to be told "we don't want you and we are not going to tell you why. Have a nice day".
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Fergineer
Well done, old chap, for continuing to show the traditional engineers' hatred (read jealousy) of pilots during your self-confessed unemployment. ‘Two winged master race’, indeed!
There are those who choose to “get on in this world” (going with the flow, if you like), and there are those who are quite happy to stand “in the dole queue” rather than compromise their principles. BTW, standing in the said dole queue does not mean that one’s principles have “gone” anywhere. In the case at hand, it is clear to me at least that the dole recipient in question would be a very honourable chap indeed if his alternative was to sell his soul to MOL. In fact, he would be a true ‘professional pilot’ with a realistic sense of his self-worth. Such chaps have usually contributed greatly to the Social Security budget, so why should they not take a little back while riding out their difficulty?
If you are into your third redundancy in five years, I would respectfully suggest to you that yours is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Good luck with your stated goal of continuing to work in aviation. Hasn’t anyone told you yet that the days of the flight engineer are over? Get used to standing in that queue, dear chap, you are likely to see much more of it in future.
My rant over too. Feel bad about it, though. Most F/Es I’ve known were fine chaps who got on very well with us ‘two winged master race’ types. In fact, my dear fergineer, most of the F/Es I've known saw the light and joined the 'master race', so to speak. Why don't you do likewise? Or is it better to stand, bitter and twisted and complaining, in your own personal 'dole queue?
Come to think of it, I hear there's this Irish outfit who, for £50, will stoop to look at your pilot application ...
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]
Well done, old chap, for continuing to show the traditional engineers' hatred (read jealousy) of pilots during your self-confessed unemployment. ‘Two winged master race’, indeed!
There are those who choose to “get on in this world” (going with the flow, if you like), and there are those who are quite happy to stand “in the dole queue” rather than compromise their principles. BTW, standing in the said dole queue does not mean that one’s principles have “gone” anywhere. In the case at hand, it is clear to me at least that the dole recipient in question would be a very honourable chap indeed if his alternative was to sell his soul to MOL. In fact, he would be a true ‘professional pilot’ with a realistic sense of his self-worth. Such chaps have usually contributed greatly to the Social Security budget, so why should they not take a little back while riding out their difficulty?
If you are into your third redundancy in five years, I would respectfully suggest to you that yours is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Good luck with your stated goal of continuing to work in aviation. Hasn’t anyone told you yet that the days of the flight engineer are over? Get used to standing in that queue, dear chap, you are likely to see much more of it in future.
My rant over too. Feel bad about it, though. Most F/Es I’ve known were fine chaps who got on very well with us ‘two winged master race’ types. In fact, my dear fergineer, most of the F/Es I've known saw the light and joined the 'master race', so to speak. Why don't you do likewise? Or is it better to stand, bitter and twisted and complaining, in your own personal 'dole queue?
Come to think of it, I hear there's this Irish outfit who, for £50, will stoop to look at your pilot application ...
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]
Tilli.
There is no hatred shown for pilos in what I said, I have never wanted to be a pilot and probably would not have the aptitude for it. I have been an FE for many years now and yes being one I realise that our days are numbered, I don't need you to tell me that.
What I implied on my post is if you wish to stand in the dole queue please do so I have and got zero help or money from them so yes I have to keep on looking. The whinges I am constantly hearing on this forum prove to me that a small minority of pilots just want everything given them on a silver platter it aint going to happen. There are more pilots than there are jobs at the moment, turn your nose up at any job at your peril, you may never get another chance. I take it your remarks are from a safe position in an airline the guys you are encouraging to turn their backs on jobs just cannot afford too.
Leave the preaching to the church get off your high horse. Why after 3 redundancies should I be calling the kettle black, I am looking for other work and do take anything that comes up so I am following what I said get out there and do it, if they don't and when the upturn does come they will not be ready for it.
Most pilots in my day were fine chaps also who also got on well with us FE's and there is no way I would say anything against them, its the young guys these days that need leadership from the older guys not the gung ho don't take that job sonny it will be no good for you. These young guys need to get out there and work. So the pay and conditions are not good its still that first rung on the ladder.
Don't ever assume that the FE that sits behind you is either jealous or hates you, each to his or her own job and when required will work together as a bloody good team.
I have seen them come and go in my 30 years in aviation so give me a bit of credit that I know something about the business.
There is no hatred shown for pilos in what I said, I have never wanted to be a pilot and probably would not have the aptitude for it. I have been an FE for many years now and yes being one I realise that our days are numbered, I don't need you to tell me that.
What I implied on my post is if you wish to stand in the dole queue please do so I have and got zero help or money from them so yes I have to keep on looking. The whinges I am constantly hearing on this forum prove to me that a small minority of pilots just want everything given them on a silver platter it aint going to happen. There are more pilots than there are jobs at the moment, turn your nose up at any job at your peril, you may never get another chance. I take it your remarks are from a safe position in an airline the guys you are encouraging to turn their backs on jobs just cannot afford too.
Leave the preaching to the church get off your high horse. Why after 3 redundancies should I be calling the kettle black, I am looking for other work and do take anything that comes up so I am following what I said get out there and do it, if they don't and when the upturn does come they will not be ready for it.
Most pilots in my day were fine chaps also who also got on well with us FE's and there is no way I would say anything against them, its the young guys these days that need leadership from the older guys not the gung ho don't take that job sonny it will be no good for you. These young guys need to get out there and work. So the pay and conditions are not good its still that first rung on the ladder.
Don't ever assume that the FE that sits behind you is either jealous or hates you, each to his or her own job and when required will work together as a bloody good team.
I have seen them come and go in my 30 years in aviation so give me a bit of credit that I know something about the business.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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DanishPilot, I vehemently disagree with Ryanair charging pilots to read their CV. I don't think pilots should send in their CV to Ryanair until he withdraws that charge (ps. maybe that's what he wants to happen?).
However I do think your comment is rather..ummm...poorly thought out (being charitable here).
Any pilot who makes the comittment to apply for any job is taking a risk. There are no guarantees for any job applicant, anywhere. The £50 is a statement of interest. Be prepared to lose it.
Ya pays yer money and takes yer chance.
Or not, (in my case).
PS. I like the CV signature idea! Good luck in finding something.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ]
However I do think your comment is rather..ummm...poorly thought out (being charitable here).
Any pilot who makes the comittment to apply for any job is taking a risk. There are no guarantees for any job applicant, anywhere. The £50 is a statement of interest. Be prepared to lose it.
Ya pays yer money and takes yer chance.
Or not, (in my case).
PS. I like the CV signature idea! Good luck in finding something.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ]
