Don't ever pay to apply for Rayanair!
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Oh how ones past can come back to haunt one, it must be a nightmare ?! and alas I'm afraid I'm none of them Guv, but simply yet just another detractor, and champion of bullsh!t repelant ! 
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I bet in the current situation there will be a lot of newbie pilots falling for this as a last hope, I hope they dont fall for it.
I hope that no one agree's with ryanair and signes up for this thing, so they realise what a **** contact it is.
NO pilot with half sense would fall for this, would they?
I hope that no one agree's with ryanair and signes up for this thing, so they realise what a **** contact it is.
NO pilot with half sense would fall for this, would they?
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Hmmmm, Moses Mashomba ... I see that's your first post. Not yet another reincarnation of ZambAero, Who?, Freeboot, Freenum, Napoleon etc etc? I suspect so!
As far as getting back on the topic, I think it ABSOLUTELY rediculous that you have to pay to even apply to any company.
Whatīs next, you have to pay for your own cup of coffee during the interview ?
Any company should stick to itīs core business, for Ryan that should be selling tickets, NOT application forms.
Sure it costs money to process an application form and to select a possible pilot/employee, but any serious business should be able to write that off.
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Under along lost identity i tried to piont out some of the discrepencies about the guv and was shouted down in a blaze of guardian reading indignation.
Oz dude you hit the nail on the head in your first post. Anyone who had an airline in burundi when he did must have been dodgy. But he is a good name dropper , shame he couldnt understand a posting in swahili.
East and central africa is full of wheeler dealers making full use of the bribery and conman attitude with the big eal around the corner. Seems people are finally catching on.
Just ignore him he s is probably missing his malaiya girlfriend.
"oh neil i ruve you darring."
A bit off the topic but entertaining
sasa guvnor wewe ni mukora na sema mafe bwana.
Oz dude you hit the nail on the head in your first post. Anyone who had an airline in burundi when he did must have been dodgy. But he is a good name dropper , shame he couldnt understand a posting in swahili.
East and central africa is full of wheeler dealers making full use of the bribery and conman attitude with the big eal around the corner. Seems people are finally catching on.
Just ignore him he s is probably missing his malaiya girlfriend.
"oh neil i ruve you darring."
A bit off the topic but entertaining
sasa guvnor wewe ni mukora na sema mafe bwana.
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batty_boy - if you were partaking of your favourite interests (as stated in your profile) 
in that neck of the woods I trust you were using the appropriate protection - otherwise you might as well have been playing Russian Roulette with an automatic! 
We didn't use Swahili in Burundi, btw ... how's your Kirundi?
in that neck of the woods I trust you were using the appropriate protection - otherwise you might as well have been playing Russian Roulette with an automatic! We didn't use Swahili in Burundi, btw ... how's your Kirundi?
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Thanks, Captain, far too many ad hominem posts for such an important subject.
Now for my own two cents- as a business professional it never ceases to amaze me how boneheaded most airline managers seem to be. What kind of mindset allows them to spend thirty million bucks on a plane then be skinflints with the guy who's driving it? In any other industry the smaller the labour component vs. revenue, the more you can pay. A few grand extra each year for the fella in the pointy end translates into a few pennies more from each customer, so why risk wrecking the whole operation over it?
I can understand FR's concern for their investment in training, but other industries have adopted a fairly simple solution to the problem of turnover- make it worth their while to stick around! There are plenty of ways to protect the investment in training their pilots that don't need to cost any more than bonding. They claim the training costs 8,000- so give the pilot a 2,000 raise in year one and 6,000 in year two. So you pay him 8,000 more by the third year but if he stays on, but then you'll have to pay that to train a replacement if he leaves, plus you've got a pilot who's more inclined to work his butt off for you. Or maybe you could pay a bonus after 3 years, or offer stock options, or... well you get the idea. As it is, I can guarantee that a significant number of Ryanair pilots will be outa there almost immediatly after they've done their two years- surely management isn't expecting this recession to still be on in 2004?
Finally, anyone who's ever seen any of my posts is aware that I'm no fan of trade unions but this company is begging for one. They might be okay for now but they can look forward to lots of labour trouble once the economy picks up.
Now for my own two cents- as a business professional it never ceases to amaze me how boneheaded most airline managers seem to be. What kind of mindset allows them to spend thirty million bucks on a plane then be skinflints with the guy who's driving it? In any other industry the smaller the labour component vs. revenue, the more you can pay. A few grand extra each year for the fella in the pointy end translates into a few pennies more from each customer, so why risk wrecking the whole operation over it?
I can understand FR's concern for their investment in training, but other industries have adopted a fairly simple solution to the problem of turnover- make it worth their while to stick around! There are plenty of ways to protect the investment in training their pilots that don't need to cost any more than bonding. They claim the training costs 8,000- so give the pilot a 2,000 raise in year one and 6,000 in year two. So you pay him 8,000 more by the third year but if he stays on, but then you'll have to pay that to train a replacement if he leaves, plus you've got a pilot who's more inclined to work his butt off for you. Or maybe you could pay a bonus after 3 years, or offer stock options, or... well you get the idea. As it is, I can guarantee that a significant number of Ryanair pilots will be outa there almost immediatly after they've done their two years- surely management isn't expecting this recession to still be on in 2004?
Finally, anyone who's ever seen any of my posts is aware that I'm no fan of trade unions but this company is begging for one. They might be okay for now but they can look forward to lots of labour trouble once the economy picks up.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Shocking terms indeed! The aspect that bothers me the most, if I have read the contractual terms as posted above correctly, is that Ryanair appears to have the option of terminating the pilot at any time for any reason, AND per terms of the contract have the right to collect any outstanding portion of the training bond. Is that correct? The legal people would have a riotous field day with this. Hope Ryanair has good counsel, if not, I believe OJ’s lawyers are available at a price.
In times like these some operators feel justified in pursuing this kind of predatory nonsense, the long-range consequences of such policies, however, are already well documented. I believe a certain airline in Singapore continues to endeavor to transform its training operation into a profit center in and of its own right, and affectionately between the sheets with participating banks, are the noble money-changer pioneers of the airman-slavery trade. Very cozy stuff, and a most humiliating disgrace to humanity. Where’s BraveHeart when you need him.
Certainly there will be many starting pilots who will take the chance. In that sense, it represents a good, albeit risky investment opportunity for the low-time and financially sound pilot (normally mutually exclusive) to acquire marketable flying skills on a glass airliner. Having acquired said experience, and having reduced the bond to an acceptable sum, these pilots will then abscond with all possible haste to a decent operator as quick as you can say “another pint of Guinness” when the time is right. The industry is already showing signs of hitting bottom, that day shouldn’t be too far off, wise strategy to be ready when the hiring starts again.
In the absence of a change in management practices, I foresee a particularly pernicious “revolving door” syndrome developing at this carrier, the accounting department appears to be perplexingly blind to the significant training and safety considerations therein.
For all of those who appear intent on slagging off McDonald's, by the way, it takes a cool hand to grease a hot burger onto the barby like a pro, especially in a roaring forties crosswind. Think I’ll wander off and practice some crash n’ dash with me Oz mates…
In times like these some operators feel justified in pursuing this kind of predatory nonsense, the long-range consequences of such policies, however, are already well documented. I believe a certain airline in Singapore continues to endeavor to transform its training operation into a profit center in and of its own right, and affectionately between the sheets with participating banks, are the noble money-changer pioneers of the airman-slavery trade. Very cozy stuff, and a most humiliating disgrace to humanity. Where’s BraveHeart when you need him.
Certainly there will be many starting pilots who will take the chance. In that sense, it represents a good, albeit risky investment opportunity for the low-time and financially sound pilot (normally mutually exclusive) to acquire marketable flying skills on a glass airliner. Having acquired said experience, and having reduced the bond to an acceptable sum, these pilots will then abscond with all possible haste to a decent operator as quick as you can say “another pint of Guinness” when the time is right. The industry is already showing signs of hitting bottom, that day shouldn’t be too far off, wise strategy to be ready when the hiring starts again.
In the absence of a change in management practices, I foresee a particularly pernicious “revolving door” syndrome developing at this carrier, the accounting department appears to be perplexingly blind to the significant training and safety considerations therein.
For all of those who appear intent on slagging off McDonald's, by the way, it takes a cool hand to grease a hot burger onto the barby like a pro, especially in a roaring forties crosswind. Think I’ll wander off and practice some crash n’ dash with me Oz mates…
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I for one know of quite a few guys/girls out there back in the oul sod who are newly qualified and looking for work but won't touch Ryanair...yes they may be hiring but from what i hear they won't be looking for anymore low time pilots till Feb02...
Really i don't think they are an operation any self respecting pilot would touch.
I think that it's only a matter of time unfortunately that FR will hit the deck and this will be due to an incident....And knowing the bit i do about them i think the whole company will come tumbling down in an inquiry when their whole operation is looked at under the microscope.
I wouldn't touch them...much as i don't have a big heart for ALT i still wouldn't go to FR. Sure the IEP15,000 type rating and what they charge for application/interviews...etc. is a total rip off and if you let them walk over you then what happens when you are on the line as a new FO. Will IALPA or BALPA be able to help you in your first year.....if it's anything like ALPA here then you are pretty much on your own for the first year.....at the mercy of MOL.....
My advice is "Don't touch em with a barge pole".
As for the bashing the THE GUVNOR is getting...we all know he flies a desk and puts more posts on here than pretty much everyone else...but hey why rise to his silly comments......as i say....
"never argue with a fool....because people might not know the difference..."
Let the anorak have his say...
As for FR...stay clear
Really i don't think they are an operation any self respecting pilot would touch.
I think that it's only a matter of time unfortunately that FR will hit the deck and this will be due to an incident....And knowing the bit i do about them i think the whole company will come tumbling down in an inquiry when their whole operation is looked at under the microscope.
I wouldn't touch them...much as i don't have a big heart for ALT i still wouldn't go to FR. Sure the IEP15,000 type rating and what they charge for application/interviews...etc. is a total rip off and if you let them walk over you then what happens when you are on the line as a new FO. Will IALPA or BALPA be able to help you in your first year.....if it's anything like ALPA here then you are pretty much on your own for the first year.....at the mercy of MOL.....
My advice is "Don't touch em with a barge pole".
As for the bashing the THE GUVNOR is getting...we all know he flies a desk and puts more posts on here than pretty much everyone else...but hey why rise to his silly comments......as i say....
"never argue with a fool....because people might not know the difference..."
Let the anorak have his say...
As for FR...stay clear
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Only a short 6 months ago I was lambasted on this forum for daring to suggest that the very situation now applying at Ryanair would come to pass.
Ontheairwaves, Sunsandfly, The Guvnor, Capt Chaos, Capt Greaser...all of them leapt to the defence of Ryanair when I suggested that the high salaries being forked out then would not last beyond the day that FR management saw the opportunity to slash the rates.
I didn't forsee how swiftly my prediction would come true.
FR has come in for a lot of stick on this thread, and yet the vehement denials that were a feature of the debate last May are all absent. The apologists guns are silent. Why? Are they finally seeing the light? I wonder if they've been warned to stay off this forum by their management. Or maybe they've finally come to realise the state of affairs they are actually in.
It must be tough to realise you've been duped.
As mens rea points out this is just the start. Get the wannabes in on a sh*te contract and keep 'em sweet by offering a command in a couple of years...but drop the command pay too. They'll be glad to get it.
It's so simple when you think about it. You take a bunch of guys and work them to the legal limits, but pay them well to start with. As soon as the opportunity presents itself you start slashing the rates, starting with the weakest (the newbies). Since they're already working to the max theres no confrontation over working conditions changes. Every dollar you drop off the payroll is another dollar of productivity in your back pocket, and they'll have to fight like hell to claw it back in the future. Running to stand still would be a suitable term to describe it.
So the FR gravy train is over lads. You've only yourselves to blame for that. If you'd been a little less gullible back in May you'd have seen it coming. You can look forward to more of the same in the future.
[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]
Ontheairwaves, Sunsandfly, The Guvnor, Capt Chaos, Capt Greaser...all of them leapt to the defence of Ryanair when I suggested that the high salaries being forked out then would not last beyond the day that FR management saw the opportunity to slash the rates.
I didn't forsee how swiftly my prediction would come true.
FR has come in for a lot of stick on this thread, and yet the vehement denials that were a feature of the debate last May are all absent. The apologists guns are silent. Why? Are they finally seeing the light? I wonder if they've been warned to stay off this forum by their management. Or maybe they've finally come to realise the state of affairs they are actually in.
It must be tough to realise you've been duped.
As mens rea points out this is just the start. Get the wannabes in on a sh*te contract and keep 'em sweet by offering a command in a couple of years...but drop the command pay too. They'll be glad to get it.
It's so simple when you think about it. You take a bunch of guys and work them to the legal limits, but pay them well to start with. As soon as the opportunity presents itself you start slashing the rates, starting with the weakest (the newbies). Since they're already working to the max theres no confrontation over working conditions changes. Every dollar you drop off the payroll is another dollar of productivity in your back pocket, and they'll have to fight like hell to claw it back in the future. Running to stand still would be a suitable term to describe it.
So the FR gravy train is over lads. You've only yourselves to blame for that. If you'd been a little less gullible back in May you'd have seen it coming. You can look forward to more of the same in the future.
[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]
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Just an American doing the math on 18000 Irish Punts/year:
18000 IEP = 20339 USD
There are Beech 1900 f/os over here that make more than that, while carrying 1/6th the passengers at half the speed, yes 1/12th the productivity. The median US regional (19-50 seats)new-hire salray is 17000 USD, just a smidge less than Ryanair's offer. On an average FR sector each passenger contributes, what, 25c to the f/os paycheck? I know of no US 737/A320 operator that offers less than twice ryanairs salary, ie at least 40,000 USD/36000 IEP.
Of course I don't know about the cost of living over there, but those numbers are just abysmal. Shameful.
18000 IEP = 20339 USD
There are Beech 1900 f/os over here that make more than that, while carrying 1/6th the passengers at half the speed, yes 1/12th the productivity. The median US regional (19-50 seats)new-hire salray is 17000 USD, just a smidge less than Ryanair's offer. On an average FR sector each passenger contributes, what, 25c to the f/os paycheck? I know of no US 737/A320 operator that offers less than twice ryanairs salary, ie at least 40,000 USD/36000 IEP.
Of course I don't know about the cost of living over there, but those numbers are just abysmal. Shameful.
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Hang on a second though, people. We've established that this is the contract for those that do not meet FR's minimum requirements.
We have not yet seen the terms of the contracts for those that do meet their minimum requirements - I'd suspect they are considerably better.
Is it fair for FR to be penalising those that don't meet their entry criteria? Sure - the alternative is simply to say "go away and don't come back until you meet our requirements". They are therefore giving these people an opportunity that they would not otherwise have had. And given the present oversupply of pilots in the market that don't have the requisite number of 737NG hours (and indeed those that do) you can't really blame them for taking advantage of that situation.
Whilst they have some very unsafe working practices (such as their high taxi speeds) the reality is that they do little from an operational perspective that the oft quoted as the 'best' airline in the States, Southwest, does not also do. They require you to either be fully type rated or pay for such a rating yourself - before you join WN. I understand there's a fee for applications; and for the first three years of employment all employees are on considerably lower salaries. And their taxi speeds have to be seen to be believed!
The primary difference is leadership - first Herb Kelleher and now Colleen Barratt know that a successful company requires its own corporate culture and they have worked extremely hard to create the Southwest Family ethos. MO'L, on the other hand, rules autocratically with an iron fist.
As a result, according to polls in such magazines as Fortune and Forbes, Southwest is lauded as one of America's best companies to work for.
Invariably, it's the only airline listed.
I've been saying for a long time now that working terms and conditions this side of the pond are going to change - and they are. Expect all airlines to start charging for CVs and requiring that applicants are either rated (and experienced) on type or will pay a lower rate until such experience has been built up.
You want that job, or not?
Cardinal - you should try for a job as an EMB135 FO at SA Airlink then! Junior FOs (ie those with under 2000 hrs tt) have a gross of R9,400 (Ģ600 or say US$850) per month and FOs earn R12,800 per month (Ģ800 or say US$1,100). Tax, medical aid etc will take off some 60% of those figures.
Still, beer is only 40p a pint!
We have not yet seen the terms of the contracts for those that do meet their minimum requirements - I'd suspect they are considerably better.
Is it fair for FR to be penalising those that don't meet their entry criteria? Sure - the alternative is simply to say "go away and don't come back until you meet our requirements". They are therefore giving these people an opportunity that they would not otherwise have had. And given the present oversupply of pilots in the market that don't have the requisite number of 737NG hours (and indeed those that do) you can't really blame them for taking advantage of that situation.
Whilst they have some very unsafe working practices (such as their high taxi speeds) the reality is that they do little from an operational perspective that the oft quoted as the 'best' airline in the States, Southwest, does not also do. They require you to either be fully type rated or pay for such a rating yourself - before you join WN. I understand there's a fee for applications; and for the first three years of employment all employees are on considerably lower salaries. And their taxi speeds have to be seen to be believed!
The primary difference is leadership - first Herb Kelleher and now Colleen Barratt know that a successful company requires its own corporate culture and they have worked extremely hard to create the Southwest Family ethos. MO'L, on the other hand, rules autocratically with an iron fist.
As a result, according to polls in such magazines as Fortune and Forbes, Southwest is lauded as one of America's best companies to work for.
Invariably, it's the only airline listed.
I've been saying for a long time now that working terms and conditions this side of the pond are going to change - and they are. Expect all airlines to start charging for CVs and requiring that applicants are either rated (and experienced) on type or will pay a lower rate until such experience has been built up.
You want that job, or not?
Cardinal - you should try for a job as an EMB135 FO at SA Airlink then! Junior FOs (ie those with under 2000 hrs tt) have a gross of R9,400 (Ģ600 or say US$850) per month and FOs earn R12,800 per month (Ģ800 or say US$1,100). Tax, medical aid etc will take off some 60% of those figures.
Still, beer is only 40p a pint!
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Thanks guys for coming back to the subject.
Requirements? Come on GOVNER, don't tell me you agree with them! A bound is for someone who's not qualified on the company's type of aircraft. What difference is there between 300 hours and 500 hours as far as costs are concerned.
Do you think I'll cost them more having 300 hours on type instead of 500? This is bullsh!t.
Also, I doubt they will find lots of pilots qualified on the 737NG with 500 hours. It's a new aircraft in Europe and there are only a few of them. They know it and when they meet eventually a pilot with 500 on it they must think "**** , we won't be able to bound him".
I’m glad to see here that apart from a few fascists who certainly don’t know what a cockpit looks like, everybody is unanimous to say that this contract is disgraceful, that no one should accept it and that Ryanair people are nothing but crooks who will pay it cash later.
Requirements? Come on GOVNER, don't tell me you agree with them! A bound is for someone who's not qualified on the company's type of aircraft. What difference is there between 300 hours and 500 hours as far as costs are concerned.
Do you think I'll cost them more having 300 hours on type instead of 500? This is bullsh!t.
Also, I doubt they will find lots of pilots qualified on the 737NG with 500 hours. It's a new aircraft in Europe and there are only a few of them. They know it and when they meet eventually a pilot with 500 on it they must think "**** , we won't be able to bound him".
I’m glad to see here that apart from a few fascists who certainly don’t know what a cockpit looks like, everybody is unanimous to say that this contract is disgraceful, that no one should accept it and that Ryanair people are nothing but crooks who will pay it cash later.
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Firstly I hope nobody minds me as a new-comer adding my comments to this thread.
I have been browsing this site for some weeks now and whilst I have no feelings either way about The Guvnor or indeed anyone else that uses this site, I have to say that I have found most of the Guvnor's posts to be of interest and directly linked to the Aviation industry, unlike a lot of others.
On to the topic in question, I personally would jump at a chance to fly for RYAN AIR, (Mr O'Leary I can be at your office by midday Monday) and before those of you who disagree start to chastise me for it let me remind you, it's a free country and we all have the opportunity to choose what we do and who we do it for!
On a lighter note, may I suggest that some of you should calm down a little, take some time to relax and maybe get out more.
And don't forget....
I have been browsing this site for some weeks now and whilst I have no feelings either way about The Guvnor or indeed anyone else that uses this site, I have to say that I have found most of the Guvnor's posts to be of interest and directly linked to the Aviation industry, unlike a lot of others.
On to the topic in question, I personally would jump at a chance to fly for RYAN AIR, (Mr O'Leary I can be at your office by midday Monday) and before those of you who disagree start to chastise me for it let me remind you, it's a free country and we all have the opportunity to choose what we do and who we do it for!
On a lighter note, may I suggest that some of you should calm down a little, take some time to relax and maybe get out more.
And don't forget....
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It's people like the silly Guvnor that seem to be running FR. This is a PROFESSION, not just a fad that passes after a few months. We are NOT bus drivers, but the most professional group you will ever come across anywhere. It costs an absolute fortune to get the licence and the pay MUST reflect this. Employers like FR will learn sooner or later who's in charge. There are varius steps we can take, one obvious one is Strike Action, which will hurt FR sooooooo badly even if it went on just for a few days.
So FR Management while you're sitting on your sorry high and mighty asses enjoying the pilots predicament, don't you dare get up - you might get a rocket up that orifice!!!
So FR Management while you're sitting on your sorry high and mighty asses enjoying the pilots predicament, don't you dare get up - you might get a rocket up that orifice!!!
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You are right NICE BLOCK, freedom of thought is a priority value, and it applies to this forum too. I just wanted to warn people about what they pay for applying for Rayanair and what outrageous contract they would eventually receive if they go through their interview process. But of course everybody is free to do what he/she wants. I personally think there would really be a lack of honor signing such a contract and accepting to fatten up those Rayanair pigs.
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Mermouse...
I was not in any way attempting to attack your thread with my post, but merely to point out to some of it's respondents that we all possess the freedom of choice, as my signature say's....
I was not in any way attempting to attack your thread with my post, but merely to point out to some of it's respondents that we all possess the freedom of choice, as my signature say's....
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You either have the type-rating or you do not have. Mermose did. Anything else is bull and is only a stunt to cash in on the situation. Shop-keeper management again, no doubt - squeezing the last possible penny from you. To quote Mr W B Yeats, Romantic Ireland is dead and gone, It's with O'Leary in the grave. By the way, this is not the same O'Leary as our playboy MO'L but a figure from the Celtic Revival period in Ireland at the end of 19th century. He too became disillusioned at the burgenoning, penny-pinching, middle class Dublin traders & shopkeepers of the time. Not much has changed?
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What these clowns (Ryanair) are doing is an appalling slight on our industry. I am all in favour of cost cutting, efficiency and operating to tight budget constraints. It make life interesting. However Ryanair are setting a new universally low standard with their current regime in place.
They are inviting disaster and when that perilous day arrives, I hope the protagonists of these disgustingly low standards are bought to justice.
The comments of some dilerious contributors are better left for another day. They defy comprehension.
Ryanair, you are a disgrace to our indusrty!
They are inviting disaster and when that perilous day arrives, I hope the protagonists of these disgustingly low standards are bought to justice.
The comments of some dilerious contributors are better left for another day. They defy comprehension.
Ryanair, you are a disgrace to our indusrty!