Report on 1999 B757 crash at Girona finally published

[Cap 56]

I used to have a book titled “Weather Flying” written by a certain Bruck (I am not 100 % sure of the name but it sounds like that) I got it from the States and the author is an American.

I borrowed it to a F/O who never returned it to me so I do not have the ISBN.

The writer used to be part of some king of weather research program, actually flying into TS and Hurricanes for scientific analysis etc…..

I really recommend it as it changes your perception of the typical WX ATPL courses into a more pragmatic approach.

I anybody has the ISBN I would appreciate if he puts it on the forum.

Thanks

If you read it you will see that Prob 30 or 40 is a lot of crap.

I know it’s a lot of effort but if over a certain period of time you compare the actual WX you get from the Volmet and Atis with the stuff you got at dispatch stage you learn more than in any ATPL course.

Nothing influences flying more than weather. Weather, always the weather it’s our enemy as well as our friend and you better learn about her/his character if the fields or air are the place where you will spend the next 25 years of your career.

Finally there is a difference between how a pilot thinks and a lawyer, scary people those pilots that think like lawyers.

[Caractacus]

Is there any evidence to show that the continued landing was intentional?

Whilst it goes againts the grain to shine a torch on just one aspect of an accident report the following is of interest:

1.5.4 Knowing the aircraft was very close to the runway the commander stated that his initial response was shock and without visual cues all he was able to do was attempt to maintain the last <<sensed>> pitch attitude and wings level.

In the absence of specific training for this extreme situation who can say how the commander should have reacted?

[Cap 56]

Thanks Mike, but it was most definitely a pilot. I bought it in 1990 while passing trough Chicago with the DC 10-30 so it’s quite old.

It is really good for those that finished their ATPL and asks themselves “now what do I do with this Met stuff in practical terms” this book provides a lot of the answers.

OK, just found it back trough

http://isbn.nu/

Thanks

[Bally Heck]

Those who have read the report properly will know that another factor consumed 400kg of fuel, and had this event not occured, they would have been above minimum diversion fuel at the end of the second approach instead of just below it. Therefore, they took enough fuel from Cardiff to complete two approaches and divert to BCN with adequate fuel.

I can assure anyone reading this thread that Britannia does not conduct witch hunts or publish league tables against crews who carry extra fuel.

Anyone reading the report with the benefit of hindsight will admit that more fuel would have been more comfortable.

Anyone who thinks the fuel state was the main cause of the accident either hasn't read the report, or worse, has a malevolent desire to see the crew pilloried.

Any chance, any chance at all of moving on from the fuel state and opening up the discussion to other factors?

[Big Tudor]

any chance at all of moving on from the fuel state and opening up the discussion to other factors?

I think BOAC asked that question about 5 pages ago Bally Heck. Didn't seem to have much impact though. In fact Danny raised the fatigue question on page 2!

[BOAC]

Welcome to the Danny/Big T/Boac club, BH. I'm afraid posters here are more interested in proving how clever they would have been (really useful, that ) than in addressing relevant issues.

[fireflybob]

BOAC you are entitled to your view which I respect but are you saying that the amount of excess fuel carried when both destination and alternate is forecasting severe weather is not a "relevant issue"?

[Bally Heck]

An issue which unfortunately has been done to death. Maybe if people reviewed previous posts in this thread, they would find that practically any input they have on the fuel situation has been said before on 10 previous occasions.

It is becoming tedious in the extreme reading the same comments over and over (and over) again! It reminds me of why I seldom PPRuNe these days.

A myriad of other issues to discuss without repetition:
Fatigue.
Windshear.
Doghouse design
Shock and temporary incapacitation
Weather
Weather Radar
Cabin safety
Airport safety
ATC
Search and Rescue
CRM
Training
Autopilot and autothrottle performance.
etc.etc.etc

Wouldn't it be great if people bothered to read the accident report and previous posts before becoming instant experts (and greater experts than the AAIB and their Spanish oppos) on god the universe and everything including fuel!


Edited to say that I am almost certain that somewhere in the next few posts we will be back on the fuel issue with a rewrite of a previous post.

Go on...make my day punks.

[BOAC]

firefly - I understand your position on this. No, it is not irrelevant. BH, however, puts it far more eloquently than I can!

The fuel WAS loaded, Yes it DID run short, YES, I probably WOULD have loaded more - but is that moving us on?

[Cap 56]

Any chance, any chance at all of moving on from the fuel state and opening up the discussion to other factors?

What other mayor factors are there then adverse weather and its consequances?

If the wx would have been fine this would not have happened.

Is there any other way to deal with adverse wx than to avoid it or when you get into it anyway, get out of it.

To do this you need fuel.

I agree we could open a book on human factors and discuss every item in a way it would find its place in the report. In doing so we would fail to address the core issue and that is that he crew did not have time (fuel wise) to take any other decision then the one they took.

So the main issue really is that it s not that easy to asses at dispatch stage what the implications of some TAF or METAR can be.

But almost never have I seen a degree of intrest in the subject as is often the case with other aviation related issues.

Why would we have to be impressed by a report?

[thegypsy]

Most experienced Pilots would agree that not enough fuel was loaded in the first instance and had an extra few tons been on board would the accident have still happened?? Perhaps or Perhaps not.Nobody knows the answer to that.

Having spent 15+ years flogging up and down 3 nights in a row to places like Gerona,Iraklion,Kerkira,Kos etc etc if there was ever a likely weather problem I alwaysd loaded extra fuel to take into account the fact that on arrival I was knackered and therefore worrying about fuel was one less problem to contend with. I went overseas to get away from this dreadful lifestyle and worked for an International Schedule Airline and have never had to do two night flights on the trot ever again thank God.

The fact that he had enough fuel to divert to BCN and hold for 30 minutes would not have been a great comfort in the circumstances as nobody wants to test the fuel guages to that extent especially if he had heard that BCN traffic was diverting to GRN which some people have suggested was the case.

Fatigue most definitely played a part in this accident , whether there was windshear ,autothrottle problems then these should have been picked up under normal circumstances but these were not exactly normal circumstances by all accounts.

WE can all train for these for these events in the Sim but on the day do any of us really know how we would actually perform in the circumstances?? I would like to think I would have performed a G/A happy in the knowledge I had plenty of fuel but who knows ??

[411A]

...arrive knackered?

Oh come now.

Report for duty, depart from the UK, fly for 3 hours...and arrive knackered?
If this is the kind of pilot Brittania has, suspect they had better double crew for 'safety'.

Aw, poor babies.

Professional pilots...NOT.

[kansasw]

Well hi 411A, here is what thegypsy said:

....if there was ever a likely weather problem I alwaysd [sic] loaded extra fuel to take into account the fact that on arrival I was knackered and therefore worrying about fuel was one less problem...........

To which you answered:

Oh come now.

Report for duty, depart from the UK, fly for 3 hours...and arrive knackered?
If this is the kind of pilot Brittania has, suspect they had better double crew for 'safety'.

Aw, poor babies.

Professional pilots...NOT.

Now I didn't see where thegypsy gave his whole schedule or enough information to enable you to know it. IE it appears to me you are answering his post as you choose to interpret or perhaps distort it and perhaps not as he intended it. I don't know why you would do this but perhaps a clue could be found in your last two lines.

What interest do you have in insulting a fellow professional pilot on such a flimsy basis?

Now let me identify myself: simple SLF, fly now and then, technically inclined, like this board and visit frequently, post occasionally. Surely there is a lot here that is above and beyond me, and of course all pilots should be tough guys unbothered by a tad of fatigue, and of course it's your type I want in the cockpit ahead of me hahaha.

So what I am addressing here is none of the technical or investigational issues of the accident in question, which I find quite fascinating, but rather your arrogant attitude which I do not understand. If you care to respond it will be nice if you do so without slashing myself or others. Thanks for listening, Kansas.

[Brenoch]

Would that other factor be flying with the speedbrakes extended for 18 or so minutes???

[411A]

red herring

kansasw,

Sorry old bean, but if a regular line pilot can only fly for 2-3 hours (normal time to the Med) and arrive 'knackered' after this short duty period, they need to find another job.

And yes, I should know, as I flew three straight years of nighttime Med turnaround flights.

Knackered...my foot.

[broadreach]

This thread is coming around to questions I asked myself after reading the report. I wondered what anyone's gut reaction would be in the instant the runway lights went out, whatever remaining luminescence outside is no use for reference and probably best avoided too, it's a downhill runway and the FO says you're 50ft high.

Would full down elevator and subsequent flare have worked had the aircraft been ten feet higher when the split-second decision for full down was taken? Would a stronger nose gear structure have withstood a fraction less impact load? The questions just go on and on. Lining up the holes in the Swiss Cheese can be achieved from more than one side of the slab, particularly in hindsight.

What seems terribly poignant about it all is that the two men involved are undoubtedly respected as good pilots, that somehow they got caught out by the alignment of holes, that from the moment the aircraft touched down everything else was down to luck. Just look at the trajectory the aircraft took as it left the runway! And that, for sure, they're aware of what's being said on here.

[kansasw]

Fair enough 411A, but strangely you have not addressed my one specific question (that's the sentence that ends with a question mark, it looks like this ? ) nor any of the several implied questions that you could have addressed. You may be a great pilot even great enough to make comments about other pilots like you have based on nothing more than internet information, but you give me cause to doubt your comprehension skills. I am not trying to slash you as I have asked you not to slash myself or others; I am just asking you to address the issues I raise and I do not see that you have done so.

[411A]

kansasw,
Presume you refer to your question about ...'insulting a professional pilot on such a flimsy basis'.

I'll keep it short for others who might have a similar question.

NO (as in zero) pilot should be 'knackered' after such a short flight...period. If they are, clearly the profession is not for them, and they should consider another way of making a living.

As I said previously, fatigue on this flight is a complete red herring.
Seems a few will use any excuse for their actions.

[Loose rivets]

To revert to that moment of the lights going out. I seriously doubt that there was a tiredness factor at that moment. There have been moments going into that same ****** field a generation ago, that had me running on a raised adrenalin / blood ratio; if I had been tired after five nights in a row and a double Gerona to round it off, this situation would have had me fully awake long before that critical moment.

I can truly understand that moment of shock, but sometimes the only way out of a situation like this is to take the a/c by the b***s...the problem is, that it's something that modern pilots get little chance to practice. I'm not alone in thinking this, as later editions of ‘Handling the big jets' end with an almost impassioned comment from the revered writer on this issue. No, you can't take hundreds of million dollars worth of aircraft and throw it around like a DC3, this level of handling comes from years of picking up experience in small, often frightening lumps, so perhaps the decision to change the PF is not all that far off. But this is thread slippage, and really, it's that last dive at the probable position of the runway that is the issue. If it was intentional, was it appropriate given all the circumstances? And is it reasonable to suppose that a pilot, not even trained in a wave-off, could execute a blind landing in those conditions?

There are going to be times when there is going to be an emergency causing a commitment to land into horrendous conditions; fire, and God help us, hijack come to mind. But the chances of the lights going out at the most critical moment must be statistically off the scale. This captain may have cornered himself into a difficult landing, but was very, very unlucky for it to become an impossible one.

[kansasw]

411A: "Presume you refer to your question about ...'insulting a professional pilot on such a flimsy basis'."

Yes, that was the sentence ending with a question mark.

411A: "I'll keep it short for others who might have a similar question.

"NO (as in zero) pilot should be 'knackered' after such a short flight...period. If they are, clearly the profession is not for them, and they should consider another way of making a living.

As I said previously, fatigue on this flight is a complete red herring."

Let me be clear that I am not addressing accident causes here and claim no competence to do so. Let me be clear that I hold no brief for nor against the pilot or crew of the aircraft. I have read the report and the thread with interest and with the competence of a concerned and literate observer.

My concern is what appears to me to be your condemnation of the pilot on insufficient evidence. I do not know the guy's schedule. You appear to base your comments on assumptions about his schedule.

Do you have any knowledge there?

That thingy with the squiggle is known as a question mark. It looks like this ? .

I actually don't think you addressed the intent of my previous question. I don't have a lot of hope that you will this one either, but what the heck, let's see what happens.


411A: "Seems a few will use any excuse for their actions."

Eh? I missed something there. Who is using what excuse for what action?

Nother question mark ? that thingy.

Sorry I am being a little snooty here, truly I have no axe to grind except good communication. If you can speak directly and plainly to my issues I will respond and be happy to have a good dialogue on the point. You are welcome to be as evasive or obscure as you like if that is your wont. I will answer to plainness and directness; otherwise over and out. Kansas